Curse

Bronus · Nov 13, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Disclaimer: Keep in mind that most of my experience comes from Random Arenas and Team Arenas and what I'm referring to in the following article is addressing specifically those types of PvP.

I enjoyed guildwars for a long time, because, IMHO, AENet made a great PvP focused game that answered many of the complaints PvP'rs had about previous PvP games, eg. cookie cutter classes, twitchy combat, non-viable builds, overpowered builds, losing precious months of your life leveling up a toon before competing in PvP [only then to find out you've made a gimp], etc. AENet is also good about releasing tweak/fix patches regularly and I'd have to say, hats off to them for that.

But ever since the release of Factions, the assassin and Factions class skill combos have pushed the pace of combat to a surprisingly fast pace and took some getting used to and adjusting. Now, the Nightfall class skills and combos has pushed the pace of combat, (in capable hands) to blinding fast. Each expansion has brought with it new skills resulting in more specialized one-trick-pony type character and group builds with very effective and lethal results.

I know I'm talking in just general terms and anecdotes, but I can't help noticing that I wasn't saying "WTF just happened?" a year ago after losing in Team Arenas.

In comparison, Shadowbane (ick

) and Mythic Entertainment's Dark Ages of Camelot started the same way and the speed progression of PvP combat, like Guild Wars, was because people just got smarter and learned their toons. But with each patch/expansion brought with it, newer more effective skills/abilities/items that pushed the pace of combat faster and faster. Combat became button spammy, twitchy and quickly stupid. These changes were made to draw in new subscribers and keep old ones interested, but it actually drove many old subscribers away.

Ironically, the year DAoC made the most changes to the PvP aspect of the game by way of expansion (Trials of Atlantis), DAoC lost 2/3s of it's subscription base, but in fairness, part of that was due to Blizzard's World of Warcraft release. Mythic Entertainment later admitted to screwing up (without admitting to screwing up in typical Mythic Entertainment fashion) by releaseing two wildly popular "Classic" servers where many of the changes made to the game were scaled back.

This week after the release of Nightfall, I'd have to say this is the first time I've been so outrightly decimated faster, more completely and repeatedly than ever before. Part of it is, admittedly, people are getting smarter and more coordinated with good communication. I don't have a problem with this. But I can't help but thinking how these new, more lethal class/skill combos have got to be part of the problem. (Before you answer this question, keep in mind I do know how to play a Prot/Heal Boon build effectively in TA/RA with 37 glad points to show for it. I'm not claiming to be a PeeVeePee-Monking-God, but I'm not a noob either).

I'm just getting frustrated at the moment, but I'm hoping that things will sort out with updates and a little time will show how to react to the latest group build/strategy. I'll have to admit, it's been discouraging and I'm thinking of quitting to play something else. Team Arena beginning to feel like Counterstrike with an RPG element. Any thoughts or observations?

sir lockt · Nov 13, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

I would like to split the discussion to TA only, since Imho RA is utter trash and I cannot imagine you call the pace there quickly: if you have a monk and a bit of luck you get in TA, if you doesnt you die quickly...(some exceptions of course!)

In TA a lot is changed, but I would not say its the pace that is a problem. I think its the ability to adept to the new enviroment. I dont want to suggest you or anybody is a noob/bad player, since I never see you play, but it might be a problem with adjusting with the new enviroment.

When NF was released some cookie-cutter builds owned you seriously... but if you adept to it, learn and observe you will overcome it. Remember that your opponent is not in and advantageous position, since you can take the exact same build as he does...

Sometimes you're just killed by a superior build, sometimes by superior play, but i dont see why a good balanced team cannot win from searing flames, thumpers or whatever is out there...

I think a lot of new things are there to get used to, not alone the hunderds of new skills, 2 professions, new maps and new builds. I am sure if you know what you are doing you will adept eventually andwill feel how the "pace" slows down...or better said: you catching up.

Besides this I dont understand your comparision with other developers that lost a community due to changes. All games are meant to be extinguished, for GW this will be certainly the case as well, but not today...

gl with catching up the pace!
Regards

BoredJoe · Nov 13, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41

I play in RA mostly when I do PVP as it's mainly casual for me. I'm a bit frustrated about searing flames rolling people over, but Nightfall is still only 2 weeks old and with so many new skills around, there was no way that everything was going to be perfectly balanced. I'm happy to wait and see what eventuates.

I've actually found it useful to leave the damage monitor up, so if I get killed quickly I can see what skills were used. That way I can analyse the opponents build for a counter, or get some advice. If you are having issues with a particular build being used just post it on the forums here. If it's overpowered, people will start copying it and it'll get tweaked

. If not, people may be able to suggest a solution.

BTW check out #46 on http://bringbacktherifts.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=220 for some insights on the skill balancing that occurs :/. The program starts around the 54 minute mark.

AuraofMana · Nov 13, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

More skills = more efficient combos. Obviously the pace of the game will change because spiking is more efficient now.

Then again, all builds have counterbuilds, so unless you adapt to the new gameplay, you won't be winning as much as you were before. The most powerful thing in TA is all superior builds, but more of superior teamwork.

Chase the Sky · Nov 13, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

The rewards are higher so more capable teams are rolling through TA- especially last weekend. The new skills have added tons of great builds that make it super fun.

It was nice to run into QQ and iQ in many of our matches over the weekend. It wasn't nice to run in them in round 10 in two of our streaks

If you are getting pwned really fast you probably need to re-work your build or work on individual player skill. If you aren't learning something when you lose then you should be blaming your team and not the metagame.

For example: You mention that you play prot/heal boon monk builds but the current Thumper meta game eats prot/boons for a light snack in-between meals. Try a Blight /assassin monk build or a ZB monk build.

Tom the Moa Bird · Nov 13, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredJoe

BTW check out #46 on http://bringbacktherifts.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=220 for some insights on the skill balancing that occurs :/. The program starts around the 54 minute mark.

Maybe off-topic, but I listened to the episode and their points about how little the pvp alphas are listened to alarmed me. I'm wondering if the situation has gotten any better since this aired, and what steps Anet has taken to balance the game to the best of their abilities. Anyone with any info on this who is willing to share?

Zui · Nov 14, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I suggest you stop running a boonprot. Boon has been nerfed twice. Their energy managment options have also been nerfed.

I also have to disagree with pretty much everything you're saying, I've noticed games in arenas have taken longer with the release of Nightfall. Not shorter.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 14, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

I suggest you stop running a boonprot. Boon has been nerfed twice. Their energy managment options have also been nerfed.

I also have to disagree with pretty much everything you're saying, I've noticed games in arenas have taken longer with the release of Nightfall. Not shorter.

That's probably because you're running on good teams. IMO, any bad or average team will end up getting rolled pretty fast and frequently, while good teams will end up having longer games. This is basically just because of the rewards and especially the weekend, which is causing a lot of very good teams to play. I played a couple QQ, Te, EW, and other good guild's teams, along with a lot of good teams, which use to be more the exception rather than the norm.

Basically, there's a lot higher ratio of good to bad teams, which means that bad teams get rolled by good teams more, while good teams get hard matches with other good teams more also.

Zui · Nov 14, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

That's probably because you're running on good teams. IMO, any bad or average team will end up getting rolled pretty fast and frequently, while good teams will end up having longer games. This is basically just because of the rewards and especially the weekend, which is causing a lot of very good teams to play. I played a couple QQ, Te, EW, and other good guild's teams, along with a lot of good teams, which use to be more the exception rather than the norm.

Basically, there's a lot higher ratio of good to bad teams, which means that bad teams get rolled by good teams more, while good teams get hard matches with other good teams more also.

I can absolutly agree with that, for the most part. I will say that over the weekend though, I think alot of people who were getting rolled fast attempted to run alot more defense in builds, which ended up in longer games with them. I saw alot of Signet of Mystic Wrath spikes, and alot of teams with multiple Monks, Ritualists, or both.

urania · Nov 15, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

I suggest you stop running a boonprot. Boon has been nerfed twice. Their energy managment options have also been nerfed.

*cough* mor boon *cough*

Sig of Mistyc Wrath spike are really annoying..not cause of teh spike itself but cause of the never ending healing =___=...

Saunter Returns · Nov 15, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Don't make me wild blow you again Karla!

Program Ftw · Nov 17, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronus

Anyone disappointed with the pace of combat lately?

No, not really.

baxtaber · Nov 21, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Sig of Mistyc Wrath spike are really annoying..not cause of teh spike itself but cause of the never ending healing =___=...

Amen to that. Its even more annoying when two are Mo/Eles with Wards of Stability and Melee and one is a Mo/P with the anti interrupt shout.

vancha · Nov 21, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Now, the reason TA is becoming more pacy, is basicly the playstyle that many players have adapted. During the first months of GW, builds you normally would see in Tombs and HoH was 4 monk teams, with overpowered healing, and no energy management. Warriros where classified as overpowered, and mending was a normal adition to any competitive arena (and still is in *cough*RA*cough*...)
The basic idea then was to survive, now it is to kill. Builds like RaO thumpers do such high damage DPS, you need to be skilled to keep up the pace of action. During the first months, the ones who held halls, where mainly the koreans, playing pretty random builds, and holding for hours, and even days.
The metagame in GW has become so ''sofisticated'' so to say. The good players find the good builds, the lesser players copy them, the weak players try to copy them, the newbs get hung out. TA is maybe the least serious type of PvP (no offense...). The pace of gameplay is faster, due to smaller teams, and the evergoing high damage vs high healing. Its allmost as if the one with least lagg wins. The adition of 6vs6 made HoH even less serious imo, and the real PvP challenge can only be found in highend GvG nowadays. "all you need to win in TA nowadays is a fsat connection, and high FPS...", not exactly, but you need luck, not much else...

Program Ftw · Nov 21, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by vancha

all you need to win in TA nowadays is a fsat connection, and high FPS...

No, you need decent players and a steam rolling build.

vancha · Nov 21, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

In RA i get teamed up with a wammo who manages to kill himself with backfire and healing breeze... Still we win. That aint decent playing, good build or anything, that is just pure luck.

moko · Nov 21, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by vancha

In RA i get teamed up with a wammo who manages to kill himself with backfire and healing breeze... Still we win. That aint decent playing, good build or anything, that is just pure luck.

as you said, in RANDOM ARENAS, not TEAM ARENAS. theres usually less idiots in TA then RA, meaning a wammo that spikes himself with Backfire isnt a big problem if you face noobs; but it is a big problem if you face decent teams in RA.

so, therefore

Quote:

all you need to win in TA nowadays is a fsat connection, and high FPS...

worst statement ever.

Dzan · Nov 22, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by vancha

cuz really, all you need to win in TA nowadays is a fsat connection, and high FPS...

If thats what you want to blame your getting steamrolled on, go right ahead.

Also, if the pace of TA is too much for you, go play Civilization. Turn based might be better for you since you have a slow connection and computer.

vancha · Nov 22, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Very funny, i have absoluttely no problem playing with the pace of game...
I have been playing since beta, mainly gvg and HA, just doing some TA and RA lately... And seriously, to win in TA isnt hard...

Dzan · Nov 22, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

So what are you complaining about then?