Curse

shardfenix · Nov 18, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

First heroes are not the problem. All you people complaining about player vs. player might as well complain about archers, knights, bodyguards, ghostly heroes, priests etc. If you can't handle this, maybe its time you quit hoh after grinding your rank 9+.

Fair enough. Since all the NPCs in gvg have 2-4 skills, let's restrict heroes to 4 skills each. Good thinking Lorph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Therefore heroes should not be limited in any way, and people should be allowed to take as many as they like.

I agree completely. What better way to enjoy heroes ascent than turning into a pve mission.

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Originally Posted by lorph

Now to please the whiners, you could change the matchup code in HA so that heroways will first play heroways.

There is no matchup code for HA. Lower teams fight other random lower teams. Guild Wars can't detect what builds people are running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

So what is the real problem with HA now? Currently, 6v6 results in a big decrease in build feasibility. This means that after many weeks, the most successful builds in tombs have centered around being radically offensive or defensive.
This is due in no small part to the fact that the skill Searing Flames is overpowered and happens to be one of the few builds that the AI is intelligent enough to use.

Any build that wins and has an average player iQ of 17 is too good. Even IWAY was harder to run than searing flames.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Consider the intelligent HA build maker as he thinks about what builds to run. He thinks about interrupt builds that use to be able to pack in all around good damage and healing power since they come in ranger mesmer ele classes etc. However, this is now down the drain ever since Song of Concentration makes the Claiming Resource impossible to stop.

If you think song of concentration makes it impossible to interrupt something, you need to rethink everything you know about pvp. Song of concentration is a horrible skill that only works well when you're facing a team too noob to know what the skill does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Now lets take a look at builds that are all offensive and focus on killing. Unfortunately Searing Flames is the defacto offensive build at the moment which if made right will kill every other offensive team and cannot take out dual paragon builds.

The last time I saw searing flames take out a paragayway build was never.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

So what about curse builds that can take out dual paragon or 6 monk builds? Well these get toasted by the hundreds of searing flame heroways on your way to hoh. Assuming you do make it to hoh, you will then die due to the fact you were running all offensive in order to take out dual paragons out of halls. You have a net gain of 5 fame. Very Inefficient.

Which brings us back to an old concept of PvP. GW is a game of rock paper scissors. You win or lose depending on what team you play against, not how good you are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

I would also like to mention that paragons are too hard to counter which I am sure most of you have already experienced for yourselves. Well of silence requires a death, and can be moved out of too easily. Then you have vocal minority, which with a lengthy recharge which is as long as most shout recharges lol, can be easily removed with expel hexes and the new nightfall hex removal on a timer of 8 or less.

Hexes? lol. I think paragons are too good because they have unlimited energy. Nerf leadership kthx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

A feasible counter would be to use energy denial, but no one has the incentive to run a build that would get toasted by sf heroway just to take out dual para and make 2 fame.

As I already said, paragons aren't affected by energy denial because they gain on average 7 energy every couple seconds. Shields up on a paragon is a nonelite bip.

I liked the rest of what you had to say and mostly agree with it. I'm glad I got my tiger before this 6v6 nonsense came about. I hardly HA anymore, and when I do, I find it boring having to do 3-5 pve missions before I get to fight a real team. It's even more frustrating when one of the SF teams beats you on a fluke or you get ganked in the lower levels by 2 hero teams. Anet needs to do away with the map changes, then stick everything back to 8v8.

DIH49 · Nov 18, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Here is the status of Heroes Ascent right now.

First heroes are not the problem. All you people complaining about player vs. player might as well complain about archers, knights, bodyguards, ghostly heroes, priests etc. If you can't handle this, maybe its time you quit hoh after grinding your rank 9+.

Actually, heroes are a problem. Here's the difference between GvG NPCs and HA NPCs: In GvG, NPCs form an area effect, in HA they form a teammate. Allow me to elaborate. In GvG, what NPCs are is basically the same as what the miasma or lava or spiked coral is. They are an area based damage tool (with utility) designed to prevent free passage in an area. They are placed to hamper gates and the Guild Lord, basically. HA doesn't have area effects because there's no real point in them. Movement in HA is fairly limited and basic. What NPCs fill in HA is a teammate's spot. In fact, this isn't actually different than GvG. You could use a hero or hench in GvG to take a teammate's spot and I would be equally against it. I am against the AI filling in for a person barring mitigating circumstances like a drop. And as soon as reconnects come in (if ever) you'll see my lobbying against hench fill-ins as well.

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So what is the real problem with HA now? Currently, 6v6 results in a big decrease in build feasibility. This means that after many weeks, the most successful builds in tombs have centered around being radically offensive or defensive.

6v6 is certainly A problem with HA, but it is far from, "the real problem." 8v8 had many of the issues that 6v6 is still having, so it's clearly not a party-size issue. The main problem of 6v6 is a lack of utility slots. This is hardly new news. I pointed out this problem days before 6v6 even went live. I am certainly not the only one who did so. The question isn't recognizing the problem, it's fixing it. That's the part we're stuck on, and enumerating the issue won't make it any more solved.

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This is due in no small part to the fact that the skill Searing Flames is overpowered and happens to be one of the few builds that the AI is intelligent enough to use.

Searing Flames is fine. It might need a bit of a recharge nerf (a second or so maybe) but it's hardly overpowered. People just aren't used to eles doing exactly what they've been supposed to be able to do this whole time.

stueyman2099 · Nov 18, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

I was about to post exactly what DIH49 said about hero's and how they compare to NPC's in GvG, but he said it for me.

As for overly defensive/offensive builds in HoH; that is nothing new, they were in 8v8 too.

Overly defensive:Blood Spike

Overly offensive: IWAY.

And now you know.

B Ephekt · Nov 18, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

As for overly defensive/offensive builds in HoH; that is nothing new, they were in 8v8 too.

Overly defensive:Blood Spike

Overly offensive: IWAY.

And now you know.

Thanks for this, but it's already been covered along with WHY those builds were able to exist and thrive. Any sensible person can see that the party size was never the problem, but rather the game types and win conditions on certain key maps.

In fact, the only thing 6v6 did accomplish, aside from the exodus of many long time players, was putting an end of the two above mentioned builds.

stueyman2099 · Nov 18, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Awesome, but apparently some people don't know:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Currently, 6v6 results in a big decrease in build feasibility. This means that after many weeks, the most successful builds in tombs have centered around being radically offensive or defensive.

lorph · Nov 18, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Fair enough. Since all the NPCs in gvg have 2-4 skills, let's restrict heroes to 4 skills each. Good thinking Lorph.

Sounds like someone is envious that an npc can have as many skills as he does. This thinking is your thinking Shard, don't put words in my mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

I agree completely. What better way to enjoy heroes ascent than turning into a pve mission.

You apparently have a problem with the supposedly new pve system. I guess you can label zaishen pve too huh? Having some heroes in HA does not make this a pve mission. Please have the humility to admit that when you reach the later levels of hoh, that there are people who have the ability to command heroes better than most humans can play. These people should be rewarded, not punished because they dont have a big friends' list for an all human team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

There is no matchup code for HA. Lower teams fight other random lower teams. Guild Wars can't detect what builds people are running.

The whole point of what I wrote is to get Guildwars to make one....

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

If you think song of concentration makes it impossible to interrupt something, you need to rethink everything you know about pvp. Song of concentration is a horrible skill that only works well when you're facing a team too noob to know what the skill does.

I think it is you who need to rethink. I did not bother mentioning that you can interrupt the song, but that requires an active distracter searching for the song paragon on BOTH teams in the case their ghostly is dead. And also that ward of stability and song on a ghostly makes him absolutely impervious to canceling his capture of the altar. This is dramatically different from the metagame before. But I guess this thinking was beyond your ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

The last time I saw searing flames take out a paragayway build was never.

I don't know if you are trying to refute me, but thanks for stating what I just said earlier, "[Searing Flames]... cannot take out dual paragon builds."

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Which brings us back to an old concept of PvP. GW is a game of rock paper scissors. You win or lose depending on what team you play against, not how good you are.

And what I am saying is that by the time you get to hoh, the rocks are sitting on the altar, and the hordes of scissors have killed all the papers in the earlier matches. So in hoh you have scissors vs. rocks 90% of the time. You understand this analogy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Hexes? lol. I think paragons are too good because they have unlimited energy. Nerf leadership kthx.

It is an energy management ability that I will admit is overpowered. This can be totally ignored if they cannot even use their shouts via hexes, so I don't see why you are laughing about this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

As I already said, paragons aren't affected by energy denial because they gain on average 7 energy every couple seconds. Shields up on a paragon is a nonelite bip.

Laugh Out Loud. 10 Energy shout with 30 second recharge. Sure sounds like a nonelite bip to me [sarcasm].

Not only have you proven to be inflammatory in your response but you also manage to make it clear you have difficulty reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Actually, heroes are a problem. Here's the difference between GvG NPCs and HA NPCs: In GvG, NPCs form an area effect, in HA they form a teammate. Allow me to elaborate. In GvG, what NPCs are is basically the same as what the miasma or lava or spiked coral is. They are an area based damage tool (with utility) designed to prevent free passage in an area. They are placed to hamper gates and the Guild Lord, basically. HA doesn't have area effects because there's no real point in them. Movement in HA is fairly limited and basic. What NPCs fill in HA is a teammate's spot. In fact, this isn't actually different than GvG. You could use a hero or hench in GvG to take a teammate's spot and I would be equally against it. I am against the AI filling in for a person barring mitigating circumstances like a drop. And as soon as reconnects come in (if ever) you'll see my lobbying against hench fill-ins as well.

So basically you are saying that you have a problem with heroes approaching the usefullness of humans. I am arguing against people that claim heroes should be removed from pvp just because p is short for player when we are all surrounded by bots anywhere.

What is totally bizzare is that now there are people complaining that these heroes are becoming more powerful than henchmen but are still extremely stupid, and thus beatable. Why is it that no one has complained about henchmen in tombs? The only reason that makes sense is that hardly anyone has lost to henchmen, but plenty of people have lost to heroway. And we can all agree that hero intelligence is inferior to most of our standards of decent guildwars pvp players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

6v6 is certainly A problem with HA, but it is far from, "the real problem." 8v8 had many of the issues that 6v6 is still having, so it's clearly not a party-size issue. The main problem of 6v6 is a lack of utility slots. This is hardly new news. I pointed out this problem days before 6v6 even went live. I am certainly not the only one who did so. The question isn't recognizing the problem, it's fixing it. That's the part we're stuck on, and enumerating the issue won't make it any more solved.

If you were to read the rest of my writing carefully, you would have noticed that I had enumerated the skill balance problems noted with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Searing Flames is fine. It might need a bit of a recharge nerf (a second or so maybe) but it's hardly overpowered. People just aren't used to eles doing exactly what they've been supposed to be able to do this whole time.

Tell me how a second or so recharge nerf is not overpowered. You are talking about a skill with a 2 second recharge that does 59.5 damage/second + 7 degen that has a gigantic radius. A one second or more nerf would drastically reduce the damage of the skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Overly defensive:Blood Spike

Overly offensive: IWAY.

Again I state that 6v6 is not THE real problem, but a major problem. What you see there are problems due to skill balances and map objectives.

Mysterial · Nov 18, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Tell me how a second or so recharge nerf is not overpowered. You are talking about a skill with a 2 second recharge that does 59.5 damage/second + 7 degen that has a gigantic radius. A one second or more nerf would drastically reduce the damage of the skill.

No, actually it does 39.7 per second and 7 degen per target (you can cast it every 3 seconds optimally, and realistically it's usually every 3.5 because you need Glowing Gaze at the absolute least to keep from immediately running out of energy). "Nearby" radius is not gigantic, either, although admittedly it's bigger than most of the idiots in HA know how to spread out. There's no reason any reasonably intelligent team should be losing to that terrible FOTM build with Glyph of Sacrifice/Meteor Shower/Searing/Attunement/Glowing/GoLE. I don't care what you're running. I can beat that with heroes.

DIH49 · Nov 18, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

So basically you are saying that you have a problem with heroes approaching the usefullness of humans. I am arguing against people that claim heroes should be removed from pvp just because p is short for player.

I have no issues with bots approaching the "usefulness" of humans because they are not even close and show no signs of being close in the forseeable future. I'm against bots on policy grounds and logical grounds. The policy issue is simple: it's bad policy to encourage players to play by themselves in a team based game. Heroes do just that, so heroes are bad. The logic issue is as you've noted. PvP is defined as an arena for players to fight players. Bots are not players, they are merely operators. Your objection to this line of reasoning was to claim a double standard between GvG bots and HA bots. My rebuttal to you was showing a key difference between the two sorts of bots: One being an area effect and the other impersonating a player. None of that had to do with usefulness. I don't care if bots could perform equally as well as a human player, I would still be against them in any PvP format.

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If you were to read the rest of my writing carefully, you would have noticed that I had enumerated the skill balance problems noted with this.

I know you did. My reply to you was that you provided nothing new to the discussion. This point, unlike your above point, had been enumerated by many (including myself) literally before 6v6 even went live. I am not saying you failed to cover any issues here, merely that covering the issue was rather pointless.

Quote:

Tell me how a second or so recharge nerf is not overpowered. You are talking about a skill with a 2 second recharge that does 59.5 damage/second + 7 degen that has a gigantic radius. A one second or more nerf would drastically reduce the damage of the skill.

The nerf would reduce damage somewhat. A 1 second nerf would reduce DPS by 33%. I don't know that I would call this drastic. In many cases people are not casting SF every 2 seconds anyways due to things like the aftercast on their in-between spells, kiting, and any other number of activities.

lorph · Nov 18, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

No, actually it does 39.7 per second and 7 degen per target (you can cast it every 3 seconds optimally, and realistically it's usually every 3.5 because you need Glowing Gaze at the absolute least to keep from immediately running out of energy). "Nearby" radius is not gigantic, either, although admittedly it's bigger than most of the idiots in HA know how to spread out. There's no reason any reasonably intelligent team should be losing to that terrible FOTM build with Glyph of Sacrifice/Meteor Shower/Searing/Attunement/Glowing/GoLE. I don't care what you're running. I can beat that with heroes.

I am quoting the optimum dps with 20% fast cast activated. And your assesment of glowing gaze is incorrect as you will be casting it as your SF recharges anyway, in which case you will make just about all the energy you used if you have fire attunement on, your target is burning, and you have high fire attributes. Plus you deal an additional amount of damage. And suppose that you did obtain 39.7 per second with 7 degen. This is 14 damage through armor penetration per second giving a grand total of 53.7 damage/second which is usually done over a radius of 2+ people. Give me another skill close to this that can give a dps this high with sustainability for well over 2 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I have no issues with bots approaching the "usefulness" of humans because they are not even close and show no signs of being close in the forseeable future. I'm against bots on policy grounds and logical grounds. The policy issue is simple: it's bad policy to encourage players to play by themselves in a team based game. Heroes do just that, so heroes are bad. The logic issue is as you've noted. PvP is defined as an arena for players to fight players. Bots are not players, they are merely operators. Your objection to this line of reasoning was to claim a double standard between GvG bots and HA bots. My rebuttal to you was showing a key difference between the two sorts of bots: One being an area effect and the other impersonating a player. None of that had to do with usefulness. I don't care if bots could perform equally as well as a human player, I would still be against them in any PvP format.

And then I ask you to extend this double standard to henchmen. No one has complained about henchmen. As Arenanet has already decided on policy and logical grounds that it is allowable to use AI under sanctioned uses, then we might as well get rid of henchmen as well. I think it is a good policy for players to play with something [heroes] which is better than nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I know you did. My reply to you was that you provided nothing new to the discussion. This point, unlike your above point, had been enumerated by many (including myself) literally before 6v6 even went live. I am not saying you failed to cover any issues here, merely that covering the issue was rather pointless.

So you point out that I point out that I made a point you had already made along time ago. That seems equally pointless as my mentioning these problems at the very least. I think I am doing this as a service to people who don't have time to see your post hidden months ago, and are able to see that these problems are still being acknowledged as the source of the issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

The nerf would reduce damage somewhat. A 1 second nerf would reduce DPS by 33%. I don't know that I would call this drastic. In many cases people are not casting SF every 2 seconds anyways due to things like the aftercast on their in-between spells, kiting, and any other number of activities.

Of course people are not casting SF every 2 seconds just as warriors rangers and assasins are not always pummeling away with their weapons, yet still do not have this much damage potential for more than over a couple seconds.

I think most people would agree that a 33% reduction in dps is large.

SilentVex · Nov 18, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

And then I ask you to extend this double standard to henchmen. No one has complained about henchmen. As Arenanet has already decided on policy and logical grounds that it is allowable to use AI under sanctioned uses, then we might as well get rid of henchmen as well. I think it is a good policy for players to play with something [heroes] which is better than nothing.

There's 2 problems with this argument. The first is that henchman are not better than the average unranked player, whereas heroes are. This gives unranked players no incentive to join/make unranked pugs. Therefore they don't learn anything about HA, and end up getting bambis with as much skill (probably less actually) as someone that iwayed their bambi. Because of this lack of incentive, they simply don't, and we end up plagued with heroway for the first 4 of 5 maps. This leads to the second problem with this argument, which is that heroway is 80%+ of the current teams in HA. If henchway with 5 henchies and 1 human had accounted for 4/5 of HA teams before now, we would have complained just as much. Before heroes invaded the vast majority of henchmen you saw were 1 at a time and results of err7's. Now you see a real team very rarely. Before heroes, NPC's were a necessary inconvenience. Now they're a method for farming a bambi. I think you mentioned that in later maps some of the people should be rewarded for controlling heroes well. You're right, they should be. In Hero Arenas. Not in HA, however, where the gameplay used to and should revolve around teamwork and cooperation.

suiraCLAW · Nov 18, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

There's 2 problems with this argument. The first is that henchman are not better than the average unranked player, whereas heroes are. This gives unranked players no incentive to join/make unranked pugs. Therefore they don't learn anything about HA, and end up getting bambis with as much skill (probably less actually) as someone that iwayed their bambi. Because of this lack of incentive, they simply don't, and we end up plagued with heroway for the first 4 of 5 maps. This leads to the second problem with this argument, which is that heroway is 80%+ of the current teams in HA. If henchway with 5 henchies and 1 human had accounted for 4/5 of HA teams before now, we would have complained just as much. Before heroes invaded the vast majority of henchmen you saw were 1 at a time and results of err7's. Now you see a real team very rarely. Before heroes, NPC's were a necessary inconvenience. Now they're a method for farming a bambi. I think you mentioned that in later maps some of the people should be rewarded for controlling heroes well. You're right, they should be. In Hero Arenas. Not in HA, however, where the gameplay used to and should revolve around teamwork and cooperation.

QFT.

Heroes are a problem because you can use them to make teams of 1 real player and 5 npc's.

Monkity Monk · Nov 18, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

i really dont think heroes are a problem at all, being on a full human team i've only lost to a team with heros once, and when i run heroway i rarely beat anything but other heroway teams. If HA needs anything they need to change SF from nearby to adajcent or soemthing along those lines

Bread Fan · Nov 18, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

It's not about LOSING to heroes, if anything a hero team is easier to beat than unranked peeps, as stated through MANY posts. Thanks for reading though...

You can argue all you want lorph but heroes and 8v8 (yes BOTH) has had a negative impact on HA as anyone that has played the game for awhile can CLEARLY see. I laugh when people say there is nothing wrong with heroes in HA, obviously these people enjoy PvE a little to much.

Reverting back to the old ways will bring some players back but I think new maps are needed eventually. Perhaps even downsized GvG maps and instead of flag stands have an altar that needs to be capped.

Retribution X · Nov 18, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

how about, We have no HA? J/K

If you can't beat AI, well, YAY! you arn't using SF! Congrats.

SF needs nerfed just as much.

Much needed IMO. I played with my heros, and got pretty damn far.

phasola · Nov 18, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

It's not anyone's problem that most of the pugs are worse than heroes. I just don't want AI in my game.

lorph · Nov 18, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentVex

There's 2 problems with this argument. The first is that henchman are not better than the average unranked player, whereas heroes are. This gives unranked players no incentive to join/make unranked pugs. Therefore they don't learn anything about HA, and end up getting bambis with as much skill (probably less actually) as someone that iwayed their bambi. Because of this lack of incentive, they simply don't, and we end up plagued with heroway for the first 4 of 5 maps. This leads to the second problem with this argument, which is that heroway is 80%+ of the current teams in HA. Now they're a method for farming a bambi.

So you have a problem with newbies getting easy rank now. I don't like it that arenanet has made it a lot easier to gain rank by not nerfing iway for a long time, not nerfing ranger spike for a long time, removing the 6 ffa burial mounds, reducing a whole lot of map timer's by 6 minutes, making HoH on a 6 minute timer,and having double fame weekends. I think by now you would have noticed that it is Arenanet's perogative to make it easier to gain rank, and heroes just happens to be one of them. Therefore you like many others are hating heroes for the wrong reason.

And also there are plenty of non heroway groups. I see human mystic spikes and dual paragons teams far earlier than the first 4 maps all the time. The thing is you probably don't see these humans as much as you'd like because they are probably stuck in a 1 hour standoff match because they can't kill anything. You stop these defensive builds, and you will see more humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentVex

I think you mentioned that in later maps some of the people should be rewarded for controlling heroes well. You're right, they should be. In Hero Arenas. Not in HA, however, where the gameplay used to and should revolve around teamwork and cooperation.

Obviously you haven't played Hero Arena which is a big failure. There is only 1 map type which involves sending heroes on what is a fancy running contest. The reward is worthless with no fame or title, which is probably what you intended since you are against people even getting an easy bambi, which was already ridiculously easy to get before anyway.

And people do learn teamwork and cooperation as the heroes always cooperate for the most part, and they do not go rogue which even r9+ players sometimes do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

It's not anyone's problem that most of the pugs are worse than heroes. I just don't want AI in my game.

Yes most of you have already said you don't want AI in your game when there already was AI in your game a long time ago.

Many PvP games have AI bots to fill in missing people, and I can't think of a game that needs this more, requiring you to field 6 players just to play.

shardfenix · Nov 18, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Sounds like someone is envious that an npc can have as many skills as he does. This thinking is your thinking Shard, don't put words in my mouth.

I was merely comparing how GvG henchies are not as good as customizable ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

You apparently have a problem with the supposedly new pve system. I guess you can label zaishen pve too huh? Having some heroes in HA does not make this a pve mission. Please have the humility to admit that when you reach the later levels of hoh, that there are people who have the ability to command heroes better than most humans can play. These people should be rewarded, not punished because they dont have a big friends' list for an all human team.

1: I never said the zaishen wasn't pve. It is. I never understood why it's there, and I never liked it there. However it does not break the game, it only wastes a minute or two of my time before each HA run.
2: There is no such thing as "commanding heroes better than real players." You know those little waterbird things that tap your keyboard for you? Those can run searing flames and win. It has nothing to do with skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

I think it is you who need to rethink. I did not bother mentioning that you can interrupt the song, but that requires an active distracter searching for the song paragon on BOTH teams in the case their ghostly is dead. And also that ward of stability and song on a ghostly makes him absolutely impervious to canceling his capture of the altar. This is dramatically different from the metagame before. But I guess this thinking was beyond your ability.

Wow. Incredible. A ghost can have song, stability, and SB on him and I could still interrupt him. You get a cookie if you figure it out. Hint: Read song of concentration again.
[skill]Song of Concentration[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

And what I am saying is that by the time you get to hoh, the rocks are sitting on the altar, and the hordes of scissors have killed all the papers in the earlier matches. So in hoh you have scissors vs. rocks 90% of the time. You understand this analogy?

Yes I do, it's my concept. How do you think IWAY won halls so much? Because nobody ever ran anything else. When 90% of the teams are running Build X, it will win halls 90% of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

It is an energy management ability that I will admit is overpowered. This can be totally ignored if they cannot even use their shouts via hexes, so I don't see why you are laughing about this point.

The problem with that is there are only what, 3 skills that stop shouts? And most paragons have monks behind them with ihex or convert. Anti shout hexes aren't practical in todays HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Laugh Out Loud. 10 Energy shout with 30 second recharge. Sure sounds like a nonelite bip to me [sarcasm].
Not only have you proven to be inflammatory in your response but you also manage to make it clear you have difficulty reading.

[skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill]
I don't see an energy cost of ten, nor a recharge time of 30. I believe it is you who has trouble reading.
EDIT: I just scrolled up and saw I typed shields up. Now I feel like a n00b. Anyway, Watch Yourself is a nonelite bip on paragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

So basically you are saying that you have a problem with heroes approaching the usefullness of humans. I am arguing against people that claim heroes should be removed from pvp just because p is short for player when we are all surrounded by bots anywhere.

What is totally bizzare is that now there are people complaining that these heroes are becoming more powerful than henchmen but are still extremely stupid, and thus beatable. Why is it that no one has complained about henchmen in tombs? The only reason that makes sense is that hardly anyone has lost to henchmen, but plenty of people have lost to heroway. And we can all agree that hero intelligence is inferior to most of our standards of decent guildwars pvp players.

If you were to read the rest of my writing carefully, you would have noticed that I had enumerated the skill balance problems noted with this.

Tell me how a second or so recharge nerf is not overpowered. You are talking about a skill with a 2 second recharge that does 59.5 damage/second + 7 degen that has a gigantic radius. A one second or more nerf would drastically reduce the damage of the skill.

Yes it would if only one person was running it. With a 1 second nerf, a team of 4 eles would now do 180 damage per second vs. 259 damage per second, which is still too much for monks to handle. This damage ignores the fact that they cast glowing gaze/liquid flame in between.

You're right. 6v6 is part of the problem. Heroes are the other part. Without heroes, HA would still be an unbalanced arena dominated by one build (paragayway), and that's a problem. However, with the current skill balance for dervish and paragons, 8v8 would be even worse. It all goes back to the root of most whining, the skills need balancing.

shardfenix · Nov 19, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

So you have a problem with newbies getting easy rank now. I don't like it that arenanet has made it a lot easier to gain rank by not nerfing iway for a long time, not nerfing ranger spike for a long time, removing the 6 ffa burial mounds, reducing a whole lot of map timer's by 6 minutes, making HoH on a 6 minute timer,and having double fame weekends. I think by now you would have noticed that it is Arenanet's perogative to make it easier to gain rank, and heroes just happens to be one of them. Therefore you like many others are hating heroes for the wrong reason.

And also there are plenty of non heroway groups. I see human mystic spikes and dual paragons teams far earlier than the first 4 maps all the time. The thing is you probably don't see these humans as much as you'd like because they are probably stuck in a 1 hour standoff match because they can't kill anything. You stop these defensive builds, and you will see more humans.

Obviously you haven't played Hero Arena which is a big failure. There is only 1 map type which involves sending heroes on what is a fancy running contest. The reward is worthless with no fame or title, which is probably what you intended since you are against people even getting an easy bambi, which was already ridiculously easy to get before anyway.

And people do learn teamwork and cooperation as the heroes always cooperate for the most part, and they do not go rogue which even r9+ players sometimes do.

Yes most of you have already said you don't want AI in your game when there already was AI in your game a long time ago.

Many PvP games have AI bots to fill in missing people, and I can't think of a game that needs this more, requiring you to field 6 players just to play.

You just don't get it, do you? Guild Wars is supposed to be a game of skill. IWAY, spirit spamming, heroway, vim, etc. all the gimmick builds ever made created ways of winning in which players did not need to possess a brain. That is why all the better players call them noob builds. Some of us players like the challenge of facing teams of equal skill. Even before order of apostasy came out, I was tired of facing IWAY, even though it was a free win, because I never got to do anything fun or interesting. Searing flames is exactly the same thing. It's noobs who don't want to play seriously ruining the game for people who do. Do you call that fair? I'm not complaining about heroes because they beat me. I'm complaining about heroes because it's annoying fighting the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over again. You want to keep heroes in HA because it gives new players a change to get easy fame. Then what? They they will still suck at everything they do. But it doesn't matter, because GW is a game about abusing the most broken skills, which a monkey can do.

SilentVex · Nov 19, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

So you have a problem with newbies getting easy rank now.

I have no problem with people getting easy rank, so long as it entails real skill and teamwork. Heroway requires neither. About it being 'easy' to do that, well, if someone is indeed new at something wouldn't you expect them to have a harder time beating the more experienced? Competition typically works this way. That's why unranked players only need 180 to their bambi, as opposed to multiple thousands like the newly r6 have to look forward to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Obviously you haven't played Hero Arena which is a big failure.

Then complain about Hero Arenas sucking. I stay out of there for a reason, don't bring it to me.

lorph · Nov 19, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

I was merely comparing how GvG henchies are not as good as customizable ones.

So they aren't as good as GvG hench, but they are still far inferior to humans which they are being used in place of. No unfair advantage here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

1: I never said the zaishen wasn't pve. It is. I never understood why it's there, and I never liked it there. However it does not break the game, it only wastes a minute or two of my time before each HA run.

They are here to filter out noob teams, just like heroes are now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

2: There is no such thing as "commanding heroes better than real players." You know those little waterbird things that tap your keyboard for you? Those can run searing flames and win. It has nothing to do with skill.

I guess you have never seen humans stand in a meteor shower in a chokepoint while with heroes they listen with the click of a flag. This is beyond waterbird tapping. Also, people controlling multiple heroes to a great degree of skill often have many of the skills disabled and use them manually for greater effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Wow. Incredible. A ghost can have song, stability, and SB on him and I could still interrupt him. You get a cookie if you figure it out.

No I will give you the cookie if you figure it out since you are obviously smarter than all the r11 12 13 that understand this mechanism already.

Hint:
Once song triggers on a ghost you can fire an infinite number of interrupts, and it will still cap. Stability guarentees it cannot be knocked down, the only other source of canceling altar capture. The only way you can interrupt him after that is if you wait 10 seconds which by that time he will be done capping, or killing it in under the 5 second capping time, which is impractical against a defensive build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

And what I am saying is that by the time you get to hoh, the rocks are sitting on the altar, and the hordes of scissors have killed all the papers in the earlier matches. So in hoh you have scissors vs. rocks 90% of the time. You understand this analogy?

Yes I do, it's my concept. How do you think IWAY won halls so much? Because nobody ever ran anything else. When 90% of the teams are running Build X, it will win halls 90% of the time.

You are not understanding what I am writing. I am comparing scissors to searing flame way, paper to hex builds that take out dual paragons rocks. I'll let your thinking do the rest. This is a much worse situation than what you mentioned because it makes it easier on the holding team to win and gain more fame when it should get harder the more fame they get per round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

I don't see an energy cost of ten, nor a recharge time of 30. I believe it is you who has trouble reading.
EDIT: I just scrolled up and saw I typed shields up. Now I feel like a n00b. Anyway, Watch Yourself is a nonelite bip on paragons.

I think we already see the pattern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Yes it would if only one person was running it. With a 1 second nerf, a team of 4 eles would now do 180 damage per second vs. 259 damage per second, which is still too much for monks to handle. This damage ignores the fact that they cast glowing gaze/liquid flame in between.

You neglect the fact that with a longer recharge it becomes more possible to remove the burning inbetween so that the next cast, the fire damage is avoided. Also, I think you are misreading this again to say that I believe SF is not overpowered. I have been saying this entire time that it is overpowered.