Curse

Meta Dervish · Nov 17, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

Coming from someone that is ranked 3. Uhh no thanks. What a terrible idea. While we are at it let's fix the economy in Guild Wars and take everyone's money away.

The main difference is that don't help in anything other than getting item skins pretty much. Not to mention you can get it solo. I can just imagine a GW world where you have to have 100k to get into a group to farm, that would be ridiculous isn't it?

Bread Fan · Nov 17, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Eg gaining small amounts of fame for entering and wining in RA, a little more for TA more for HA and then even more for GvG.

None of those ideas would work. RA is basically all noobs and most rage quit upon entering if they see they don't have a monk on their team. TA all you need is two decent monks and a match could go on for almost an hour (been there done that). Getting fame in GvG, everyone would just join smurf guilds and beat the crap out of teams just trying out GvG thus discouraging them from playing at all.

P.S - Champ Titles > Fame

Razz L Dazzle · Nov 17, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Suggestions for Gaile and A-net

Heroes- First, One real person, 3 heroes and and 2 henches should be removed. This is not cooperative and not meant for the HA environment.

How many heroes allowed in HA? I don't believe heroes should be in HA, i assumed they had a separate and legitimate arena for that. Give them titles in that arena and people farming with heroes will have a place to farm. Since A-net wants to modify the number of hench I would say maximum 2 heroes and Remove henchmen. More than 2 non-players is a bit ridiculous in PvP. This could help new players that would want to fill out their teams. Heroes are Ai bots, i doubt people currently playing with heroes are truly using their whole skill bars if at all. Most HAers take pride in beating real people but playing bots there is only shame in losing.

Suggesting to stop heroes and pure holding builds & gimmicks: I would suggest making 'significant' map changes. I would suggest the first two maps to be a relic run and something that forces your team to split. Then you could have a death match and altar maps would be for higher progressing teams. The process to HoH would be: Split game possibly gaining access points or possibly total deaths(annihilation match) in 4 minutes(use vault map possibly) , Relic run, Death match 1v1, 4 team scar earth, make flags more relevant there!, Then 3 team broken tower, Dark chambers, Cortyard, Advanced Relic run, then HoH.

In this system holding builds will struggle to make it to altar maps b/c they will be beaten by offensive fame farming builds and they will have to pack skills to successfully run relics. And of course fame farming builds will struggle when they progress to altar matches. This system would allow only the truly balanced and strong team to successfully pass up to the hall of heroes, at least more often than it does currently. If the holding build and AI controlled hero team are able to win these formats then congratulations. The current system of a death match and 3 person altar match poses too much luck and favors Searing flames, heroes, and holding builds. These builds are often squashed in relic maps b/c of splitting and team coordination. The limited success that heroes, and AI teams have at beginning will deter them from being created.

A-net could also provide some incentive for creative innovation such as: Teams winning HoH this week using Dwarven Battle Stance and Healing hands win double fame for each halls victory. Many top pvpers will take up the challenge. Something needs to be done to stimulate creativity at least, incentives would be a good idea, perhaps more creative than my idea. To stimulate HA guilds a Records Npc in HA could list the top 10 guilds with most Halls wins for the week, month, overall etc. PuG team could also see their leaders name up their for most wins too.

A-net could help new players gain fame by each week highlighting the popular HA builds used and highlight a creative build used or the team that best used Dwarven Battle stance and healing hands. New players need to see the skill bars used and learn the FotM's. This would mean more frequent updates of premade builds, most of which are no longer valid once again. The PvP primers are a good idea but it would be more helpful if they had expert pvpers write these articles. Perhaps having someone write: how to gain fame and access to ranked groups when starting from zero? How to become a good monk in current metagame? How to coordinate spike where monks are unable to heal? Etc.....

I'm glad to see that A-net want to fix Heroes Ascent but i hope these changes will actually be 'significant'.

- Razz L

allience · Nov 17, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

to all the Whiners, rank is needed. it's the only way you can have an easier time at making a team. an experienced player would wanna team up with somebody at their own level. it's already hard to find ranked ppl who are good. if there was no rank the search would be even harder. when the today's unranked ppl will get ranked, they'll think the same way.

and let's face it, pvp is a COMPETITIVE game. you win, you get a reward. competition by deffinition is NOT meant to bring equality. gw is not some sort of communist regime and fame is needed to ensure competition.

we've all been rank 0. we all had to work our way to higher ranks. i just don't understand why unranked ppl always WHINE and cry about it. best advice is: if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

in other words if you DON'T like competition, play in another area of the game which is not competitive. guild wars has many choices to offer you. so don't just come in a competitive area and WHINE that u're having a hard time and ruin things for ppl who enjoy it.

it's all the lazy whiners that created the problems with Heroes Ascent. it's these ppl who complined about having to find 7 ppl, so the devs turned it to 6. they complained that they still have a hard time COOPERATING with other ppl so anet gave them Heroway.

and the result? it's this shit Heroes Ascent became --> Player VS Ai. Litteraly NPC Heroes Ascent.

this thread is about cleaning the mess rank whiners created in the first place. i hope anet will limit NPCs to 3 per party. it would be a fair balance of 3 humans and 3 heroes because this game is NOT meant to be single player.

and i also hope Anet will realise 8v8 was better because it gave ppl more options. and we all know districts were twice in number when 8v8 was alive. we could hardly get in international 1. Now, with 6v6 there's 3 international districts on a Friday night. this proves how much 6v6 sux and how many ppl gave up on HA because of all these bad changes.

/end rant

Cartoonhero · Nov 17, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Limit on number of heroes: 0 please. heroes are for pve and hero battles.

and i know i know, its not about 8v8, but i agree, 8v8 should be back, im sick of having to decide against full offense for quick fame runs, or a holding build that has 20+ min matches all the way to halls. (have you ever had a map battle with 2 para ways, a MW spike, and a heroway?) for one, the heroway isnt helping anything, so you roll it, and then there's nothing but the holding builds left.. it goes on forever, or until we agree to roll dice. rolling dice is not how anyone was ever ment to win a match...
/sigh.

SilentVex · Nov 17, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Suggesting to stop heroes and pure holding builds & gimmicks: I would suggest making 'significant' map changes. I would suggest the first two maps to be a relic run and something that forces your team to split. Then you could have a death match and altar maps would be for higher progressing teams. The process to HoH would be: Split game possibly gaining access points or possibly total deaths(annihilation match) in 4 minutes(use vault map possibly) , Relic run, Death match 1v1, 4 team scar earth, make flags more relevant there!, Then 3 team broken tower, Dark chambers, Cortyard, Advanced Relic run, then HoH.

The current map schedule is far, far better at deterring gimmicks and fotm builds than this. By putting both relics/splits first, you simply change the new fame farming build to be 2 drok's running wammos, a gale/warder, 2 monks, and something else. In addition, what happens when things are completely dead like they are now? Your halls run would go 2 split maps > 1 deathmatch > hoh. My runs last night were at least deathmatch>alter>relic/scarred>halls or thereabouts. By lumping map types in any particular region of the schedule you ensure that everyone will either hit it, or not hit it. That's exactly how you *do* encourage gimmick and fotm fame farming builds. This is precisely the reason hero builds are such a problem anyway, the current map lineup allows them to work better than they should.
Edit: Melee pressure (iway) would have a hayday with that lineup. They call it iway temples for a reason.

Lord Mendes · Nov 17, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Meh Mendes this is an ok idea but its not needed, you have seen Euro Eng 1/2, its FULL of unranked people looking for teams, I dont know how the people who are complaining cannot find a team to get into. If they are hanging out in ID1 then they are in the wrong place.

Well Buffy look at it this way: If you were to count all the unranked players on guru complaining about not being able to find a decent team due to "rank elitism" you would end up with a pretty significant number, in the several hundreds. This is on guru ALONE.
These people all want to find teams for HA, well why not make it much easier for them by placing them in the same district. I mean they won't have to look for each other, or be shy about advertizing for unranked players, cuz quite simply they will all be in the same place.
I dunno the system has flaws but it could lead to a larger number of unranked parties forming, giving these players a chance to play in real teams which is what HA is supposed to be about.
And quite frankly I don't know why people are complaining about not being able to find unranked parties either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meta Dervish

You are a rank 0, you decided to finally start working on your rank. However, for every match you won you also have to go through 5+ losing matches. Ok fine, you decided you will be persistent and keep going. Meanwhile, a rank 6 guy is playing HA, and for every match the R0 player win, the R6 player won 6 matches.

Well then there you go, you just proved that rank=performance in HA. Why would you remove a system that can accurately predict the outcome of a game (higher ranked player winning against lower ranked teams). If what you are claiming is true, then rank is PERFECT in HA simply because the higher ranked players will more likely perform better than the lower ranked player. If this is true then the whole "ranked people won't let me into their party" argument is totally irrelivant, since by definition ranked people are doing better than unranked people.

Also I am in a semi-intoxicated state at the moment and will probably be posting more about the matter in the morning.

Randomway Ftw · Nov 17, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I don't think that splitting tactics should be forced upon the first few maps of HA, we already have something like that, its called GvG, don't make HA into GvG.

I think there should be a requirement that a team goes through at least one relic, one annihalation, and one altar map before going to halls. Maybe even decrease the frequncy of halls matches to prevent skipping.

The way to deal with holding builds with small amounts of offense, is to add a VOD like system for annihalation maps so that if they can't get a kill they will lose because their defense is severely weakened.

I don't think that altar maps are a broken system, the broken system is the amount of defense that these paragons can continueously maintain, while 6v6 has made it difficult to carry a sufficient amount of counters to paragons without take away from other parts of your build. I can think of several builds in 8v8 that would have completely destroyed this build. Even when people interupted ghosts till the end it was more fun this paragon trash.

I don't think that the ghost should have instant guaranteed cap, you need to have a reasonable degree of control over the map, not just your ghost dies its over. Besides its not exactly that hard to bring your ghost to the altar at the right time/place, had enough adrenaline for a song, and had a stability on the altar, if you do it right you should cap. For example don't kill ghost at 20s and bring your ghost to the altar after he's dead. Just because you've lost to bodyblocks/interupts before does not make them unbalanced, the counters exist, it's your own fault if you chose not to use them.

A better lfg system would solve most of the probelms with finding groups, and remember if your unranked and can't get into groups no one is stopping you from making your own.

phasola · Nov 17, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Gaile's getting a lot more than she bargained for with this thread.

Lord Mendes · Nov 17, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

Gaile's getting a lot more than she bargained for with this thread.

Well in all fairness it must have taken some courage to start a thread that will most likely start loads of arguments.
I think all the anti-heroway posts are making lots of sense (mainly because I believe in the cause

) and it is relatively hard to ignore all the arguments against 6v6, heroes and the current state of HA in general.
I hope this thread is taken into consideration when deciding on the fate of HA because I am reading some great arguments and suggestions.

Meta Dervish · Nov 17, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Well then there you go, you just proved that rank=performance in HA. Why would you remove a system that can accurately predict the outcome of a game (higher ranked player winning against lower ranked teams). If what you are claiming is true, then rank is PERFECT in HA simply because the higher ranked players will more likely perform better than the lower ranked player. If this is true then the whole "ranked people won't let me into their party" argument is totally irrelivant, since by definition ranked people are doing better than unranked people.

Not really, what I proved was that R6 get into groups multiple times as fast, and therefore the chance they win are also multiple times. A R0 takes 3 hours for one game, R6 done 12 matches in those 3 hours, won 3, and still come out on top of the R0.

Another idea is...average out a group's rank, and pair them with another group with similar average. Basically stolen out of GVG, rank pairing system. I doubt people would support this though, its kinda hard to implement.

P.S. There was one time I played HA for 4 hours, when I first started, there was a R2 guy LFG, 2 hours later that guy was making an unranked balanced group, and another 2 hours later, he's STILL there spamming lol. I almost want to cry for him XD, but I had to go sleep so nothing I can do :P.

supaet · Nov 17, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

If you're rank 0, you can't get into DECENT TEAMS because YOU ARE NOT DECENT. you are inexperienced and you're a newbie. A rank 0 expecting to get into a decent group is like someone who do not have high school diploma and expecting high income. It will not work.

I never discourage fame farming because whiel you farm fame, you also get experiences in pvp and hoh. again FAME = experience!!! Again, someone iwayed their rank 9 will perform better most of the time than someone who CLAIMS that they only play balance and never gimmick to rank 6.

So there you have it, if you're new, run simple builds like fotm builds first, go observe a few games and make your own group. Please do not use heroway. Fame that was farmed with hero way != pvp cooperating experiences!!

phasola · Nov 17, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

It's sad that unranked people can't find groups. IWAY kinda fixed that...
I hope Anet realises that HA has more serious problems that heroway :B.

SilentVex · Nov 17, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meta Dervish

Not really, what I proved was that R6 get into groups multiple times as fast, and therefore the chance they win are also multiple times. A R0 takes 3 hours for one game, R6 done 12 matches in those 3 hours, won 3, and still come out on top of the R0.

1> You're completely wrong. Making groups took just as long for me as a r2 as it does as a r8. What you're jealous of is the r6's friend list, which is not a hard thing to build up. 2> R0 have 25 fame to get to rank 1, 180 to get their bambi. R6 have to get 680 to get to r7, 3,665 to get their tiger. It is completely fair.

Bread Fan · Nov 17, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Oh well, that guy needs to go take his lumps like the rest of us did. Please stay on topic this thread is about how HA is virtually deserted now. If you think rank had something to do with it, I want whatever you are smoking.

Lord Mendes · Nov 17, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

Oh well, that guy needs to go take his lumps like the rest of us did. Please stay on topic this thread is about how HA is virtually deserted now. If you think rank had something to do with it, I want whatever you are smoking.

Well the problem is that many lower ranked players (again stereotyping) THINK that rank is the problem and many people including myself are trying to prove/explain to them that rank is not the issue. It is the bigger picture... It is not because you are unranked that you aren't finding teams, and this is obvious because there are LOADS of unranked players on guru saying they can't find teams. The whole "finding a PuG" process should be modified, that's all. Other than that if you tell me that a rank 3 pug often outperforms a rank 9 pug, then you truly need to pass that shit around...

Lynxius · Nov 17, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

I have suggested an optional district for players that are below rank 3 to go to find teams of similar experience level. The higher ranked players would still only have the current districts (no rank 3+ dists) and the rankless players would be able to access both.

/signed

Seems like a simple easy solution to rank discrimination, let the rankless face the rankless, let them train and get better.

Ss Executioner · Nov 17, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

I tried to stay out of this topic as long as possible, thinking that atleast ONE person would state this....

HA is supposed to be PvP right? Players Versus Players. Not Player with Heroes Versus Player With Heroes.

ArenaNet. You created a Hero Arena, and at the same time accidentally (I would hope) made another Hero Arena... Heroes Ascent. I guess the name is fitting huh?

Playing in HA, is more like PvE. You aren't fighting versus intelligent players, you are fighting against 1 player, probably watching TV, and 5 NPC's.... Care to explain the differences between HA and Hero Battles? I don't see any, with the sole exception of HoH and fame.

Peace,
-Ss

shardfenix · Nov 17, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

Heroes should be limited to HA to 3 per party.
We would have 3 humans, 3 heroes. i'm quite bored of beating on 5 ai...

Right cause that would solve the problem of having the last 2 humans leave and giving someone henchies. Zero heroes for HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

An interesting feature would be to have a Hero replacement if error 7. i don't know if it's possible but it would be cool if we could get a hero replacement with our skillbar instead of a random henchie.

It's possible, but it would be so buggy that people would rather just take the henchies.

Quote: