Curse

Arya Nibelrund · Nov 17, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

The worst thing about heroes is that they prevent players from socialising, and I fully agree with Makk on that one. A few months ago I was a hardcore pve-er, I had no fame nor gvg experience. I felt I wanted to change that, so I actively looked for a more oriented pvp guild, started to make connections (=friends), pug HA, and try to be more active pming and chatting with nice people I had the pleasure to play with. Now after a few months I have a friends list with a few good pvp-ers, and usually have no troubles getting into HA groups when I haven't a pvp session scheduled already. For those out here that complain they cannot find a HA group, believe me, it only takes a little effort, but you can do it. Nothing comes for free.
And it's SO satisfying to achieve it; the fame and victories you get with AI controlled toons are really ephemeral. You miss the laughs on vent, the yelling, the ragequitting, everything that's social, and I do love every single thing of that. And having a FRIEND rage is the best thing, because you know you will laugh about it 5 minutes laters with him. Just don't group with unmannered kids.
That's why I'm totally against having heroes or even henchies play in your team. I don't care if they're easy to beat, I don't care if they play the same build over and over, because that will most likely happen with human players only. It's the social aspect of Guild Wars that makes it worth playing. Otherwise it might as well be an offline game.
So, I would love to see heroes and henchies removed from pvp. No limits, just take them all out. You should be able to pick a henchie when a teammate gets an error (hopefully someday you will find a way to implement a reconnect feature

) and only under that circumstance.
Losing is a part of the game, and improving as well. Having bots win a match for you doesn't do you any good. You should be prepared to lose a LOT when playing with unranked teams, and basically grind your way to rank 3 or more, and then you will be able to join better teams and make more fame per runs. It takes patience, but I don't see why everyone expects everything and wants it immediatly, but that has little to do with GW and more with our real life attitudes. And if after months of playing you still don't improve and don't get a decent rank, well, then you're not good enough at it. Plain and simple. I don't see why everyone should be rank 12 to be honest.
Sorry for the long post and poor english.
I love pvp and I love to make friends ingame. Thus I don't use heroes.

Lykan · Nov 17, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

My suggestions, and these are really quite simple and should have been in from the start... but:

1. Give HvH a reason to play it (Commander title?)
2. Give HA back to the players, excluding Heroes completely but keeping Henchies (for the sake of when someone errors they get at least something to replace him/her).
And if we're lucky you'll...
3. Bring back 8v8.
And if we're even MORE lucky you'll...
4. Let us reclaim Tomb of Primeval Kings! (HA is really dark and dull...)

These are all great ideas!

It seems to mean that Anet is more willing to sacrifice and upset its old and loyal HA followers to try pull in and and please newer players. Is this good business management? I dont think so.
Its like the football (soccer) league chairmen suddenly deciding to totally change the nature and aspect of the game just because new players arent as good at the old version.

And sorry Gaile but your reasoning for allowing heros as an extention of a player is not good enough. HA is about interacting with full human teams not one player controlling a team. A full team comprises many different personalities and emotions, heros wont make a mistake after 10 minutes of constant pressure or through frustration. By your example it implies Heros should be allowed to take part in GvG tournies.

Program Ftw · Nov 17, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by sai987

Botomline, the 6 player teams (no heros or henches) who would do well if there weren't any heros, will do well now too. The heroway teams just increase the number of competitors at HA (which is a good thing) and they mostly battle each other. Keep the things they way they are, it works fine.

No, it isn't fine. It sucks.

Program Ftw · Nov 17, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It sure does! And this is why Hero Vs Hero is a viable format.

As far as HA or other forms of strict PvP go - it doesn't apply. Four human players have the potential to play far more effectively than one person micro-managing three heroes - so every time you play against Heroes the win is meaningless, because you are fighting a sub-par "team" anyway. It turns it from an achievement (which is entirely what competitive players strive for) into nothing but a tiresome process.

I played HA for the first time in a while a couple of nights ago, every team we faced all the way up to Courtyard was a single human and NPCs. There was absolutely no enjoyment at all in wiping them - up untill Courtyard where the two "heroway" teams just both piled on us for actually daring to have a full team of human players. A complete waste of time.

Of course that rant is largely pointless, as you have already pointed out that there will be changes made to solve that issue. However; the point I am trying to make is that you should strongly consider taking them out all together. HA was fine without them - there are still henches for the truly desperate. Heroes should be PvE and HvH only - they do not belong in PvP at all by definition.

JR- I agree with you for once

axe · Nov 17, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It sure does! And this is why Hero Vs Hero is a viable format.

As far as HA or other forms of strict PvP go - it doesn't apply. Four human players have the potential to play far more effectively than one person micro-managing three heroes - so every time you play against Heroes the win is meaningless, because you are fighting a sub-par "team" anyway. It turns it from an achievement (which is entirely what competitive players strive for) into nothing but a tiresome process.

I played HA for the first time in a while a couple of nights ago, every team we faced all the way up to Courtyard was a single human and NPCs. There was absolutely no enjoyment at all in wiping them - up untill Courtyard where the two "heroway" teams just both piled on us for actually daring to have a full team of human players. A complete waste of time.

Of course that rant is largely pointless, as you have already pointed out that there will be changes made to solve that issue. However; the point I am trying to make is that you should strongly consider taking them out all together. HA was fine without them - there are still henches for the truly desperate. Heroes should be PvE and HvH only - they do not belong in PvP at all by definition.

Please get a job at Anet as their PVP rep.

I read Gailes last post and was going to respond to it, but others have covered it very well.

allience · Nov 17, 2006, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Heroes should be limited to HA to 3 per party.
We would have 3 humans, 3 heroes. i'm quite bored of beating on 5 ai...

An interesting feature would be to have a Hero replacement if error 7. i don't know if it's possible but it would be cool if we could get a hero replacement with our skillbar instead of a random henchie.

off topic: bring back 8v8 or at least make a new 8v8 arena. and gaile u posted that poll about 6v6 in some LESS known forum. it wasn't here and it wasn't on GWonline. i would of voted my opinion on it and so would the rest of us. it's not fair at all that only the ppl who know that specific forum are taken into account.

luilui · Nov 17, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Similar to many others i would like the number of heroes in a team should be limited to 2-3. So maybe I dont have to kill Dunkoro every single map.

Henchies should be replaced by heroes since they are better.

(Please please come back 8v8!!!!)

I think more is needed to be done to help the new players. Sure a lot of us have gone through a lot to get our ranks and friends, but doesnt mean everyone has to go through the same. A system help people finding a group would be nice.

luilui · Nov 17, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

double post ftl.......

B Ephekt · Nov 17, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It sure does! And this is why Hero Vs Hero is a viable format.

As far as HA or other forms of strict PvP go - it doesn't apply. Four human players have the potential to play far more effectively than one person micro-managing three heroes - so every time you play against Heroes the win is meaningless, because you are fighting a sub-par "team" anyway. It turns it from an achievement (which is entirely what competitive players strive for) into nothing but a tiresome process.

I played HA for the first time in a while a couple of nights ago, every team we faced all the way up to Courtyard was a single human and NPCs. There was absolutely no enjoyment at all in wiping them - up untill Courtyard where the two "heroway" teams just both piled on us for actually daring to have a full team of human players. A complete waste of time.

Of course that rant is largely pointless, as you have already pointed out that there will be changes made to solve that issue. However; the point I am trying to make is that you should strongly consider taking them out all together. HA was fine without them - there are still henches for the truly desperate. Heroes should be PvE and HvH only - they do not belong in PvP at all by definition.

Agreed 100%.

Things HA desperately needs to remain (or get back on track to being) a valid PvP arena:

-Removal of heroes - this isn't an RTS game, and tombs is a pvp arena
-8v8 (6v6 limits options for utility and counters, and restricts creativity in builds)
-New maps, game types and win conditions
-Less of the broken cap and hold, or interrupt for 2:00, mechanic
-A hero that's non-blockable (like the Guild Lord in GvG), not susceptible to energy denial, and more resiliant to interrupts
-A group formation system more advance than spamming "LFG" in a chat window
-A merchant we can sell our req. 13 Water Wands to

And of course... Tomb of Primeval Kings.

Sophitia Leafblade · Nov 17, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I think the best thing to do would be to introduce a 2 tier PvP system, which i shall call HA & HoH. (yeah i know these names exist but im using them for my idea)

Allow HA for players below rank 3 or 6 and allow heros as current. Then For Players Rank 4+ or 7+ you can no longer battle in Ha (similar to lvl restrictions on the low lvl Arenas) Then you go to HoH (not neccesrry the one in Tryia) which consists of No Heros or Henchies this would Allow Anet to add in some new Maps and battle types for the higher ranked people allowing some new variation for them. Favor of the Gods then could be linked to the Higher Tier event only.

Personally something like this would be the best way for everyone, high ranked people wouldnt have to face Heros, lower ranked people would still be able to and both would still be ablt to enter the Same type of tournament. As for the comments about returning it to 8 Vs 8 well we have that already its called GvG so if u really want 8 Vs 8 go fight for your guilds.

This is Guild Wars after all

And lasty for people say its not true PvP with Heros, this is true its not true PvP, but HoH never has been a True PvP need i say the Ghostly heros, the resurrection shrine monks and both HoH and GvG have always allows Henchies

hyro yamaguchi · Nov 17, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I say:

8v8 back, restrict heroes to 1 per teammembers, removing them would be contradicting the idea behind them of getting parties more easy and having 3 per team....ehr...isn't that what it's right now? oh and offcourse fix the maps.
But also: reset fame, this to whipe out the Iway/SF/ebayed past, and make everyone equal again, after 1 month of whining HA will be good again.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 17, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

I say:

8v8 back, restrict heroes to 1 per teammembers, removing them would be contradicting the idea behind them of getting parties more easy and having 3 per team....ehr...isn't that what it's right now? oh and offcourse fix the maps.
But also: reset fame, this to whipe out the Iway/SF/ebayed past, and make everyone equal again, after 1 month of whining HA will be good again.

Yeah, I'm sure custo and the entirity of iA would love that idea.

1)remove heroes from pvp altogether.

2)don't cave and make ha 8v8, while 6v6 certainly isn't better, it's not worse either.

3) Make HA not suck by adding in different win conditions than just 'kill everything' or 'don't die for 2 minutes'.

Lord Mendes · Nov 17, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

-Removal of heroes - this isn't an RTS game, and tombs is a pvp arena
-8v8 (6v6 limits options for utility and counters, and restricts creativity in builds)
-New maps, game types and win conditions
-Less of the broken cap and hold, or interrupt for 2:00, mechanic
-A hero that's non-blockable (like the Guild Lord in GvG), not susceptible to energy denial, and more resiliant to interrupts
-A group formation system more advance than spamming "LFG" in a chat window
-A merchant we can sell our req. 13 Water Wands to

And of course... Tomb of Primeval Kings.

Great list.
Dunno about you but I seem to be getting a lot more superior fast cast runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

-1. Give HvH a reason to play it (Commander title?)
2. Give HA back to the players, excluding Heroes completely but keeping Henchies (for the sake of when someone errors they get at least something to replace him/her).
And if we're lucky you'll...
3. Bring back 8v8.
And if we're even MORE lucky you'll...
4. Let us reclaim Tomb of Primeval Kings! (HA is really dark and dull...)

Another superb list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Allow HA for players below rank 3 or 6 and allow heros as current. Then For Players Rank 4+ or 7+ you can no longer battle in Ha (similar to lvl restrictions on the low lvl Arenas) Then you go to HoH (not neccesrry the one in Tryia) which consists of No Heros or Henchies this would Allow Anet to add in some new Maps and battle types for the higher ranked people allowing some new variation for them. Favor of the Gods then could be linked to the Higher Tier event only.

No that would be horrible. What if you enjoy playing with heroes, but are rank 7(/pokes Syra). These people should still have the chance to play somewhere, and making HvH for lower ranked players would make the arena's accessibility impossible for some, which is the opposite of what Anet are trying to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

As for the comments about returning it to 8 Vs 8 well we have that already its called GvG so if u really want 8 Vs 8 go fight for your guilds. This is Guild Wars after all.

Get ready to be flamed. I personally won't go there since this is the worst argument ever.
"Get rid of UW, we already have tomb of primeval kings!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

But also: reset fame, this to whipe out the Iway/SF/ebayed past, and make everyone equal again, after 1 month of whining HA will be good again.

No. If these people have friends and enjoy HA they will keep playing ONLY with their friends and guildies. You will never ever find yourself on a team of ex-ranked people since loads of "clicks" have already formed up and they will only be playing with other ex-ranked players.
On the contrary the place will be full of touch rangers hoping to become future demi-gods of HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

the entirity of iA .

iA? Unless I am mistaken (which I probably am) they split up due to the joke HA has turned into. Ex-iA members feel free to correct me if i am wrong

B Ephekt · Nov 17, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

I say:

8v8 back, restrict heroes to 1 per teammembers, removing them would be contradicting the idea behind them of getting parties more easy and having 3 per team....ehr...isn't that what it's right now? oh and offcourse fix the maps.
But also: reset fame, this to whipe out the Iway/SF/ebayed past, and make everyone equal again, after 1 month of whining HA will be good again.

The current hero limit is 3, but you can add 2 henchmen in to get a total of 5 NPCs. There needs to be a hard limit on NPCs in parties, not just heros.

As for resetting fame, it's been discussed probably a million times already, and it's a pretty bad idea. There is simply no reason to reset fame at this point, almost two years after release. Anyone with any kind of rank at all would simply stop playing when their accomplishments are taken away, especially those who have been tombing for well over a year. Fame is the reward for the arena after all, leave it be. Furthermore, it would only cause those who remain to play with people they new to be r9+ before the whipe so it really wouldn't solve anything.

As for 6v6, the loss of two characters does reduce the fun for a lot of people. I see what Anet was trying to to with 6v6, but it seems like a nearsighted, baind-aid-ish fix that didn't really address any of the problems that plagued the arena. All it really did was get rid of the IWAY and bspike PUGs, which most people didn't care about anyway. Let's just go back to the proper party size, the size Guild Wars pvp is supposedly balanced around, and actually address the issues directly.

I know that's quite a departure from the original topic, so I'll let it be now.

qvtkc · Nov 17, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

1)remove heroes from pvp altogether.

I agree, or make it possible to have like only one hero in the team if you can't find a person to fill up the team with (but in that case, remove the henchmen)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

2)don't cave and make ha 8v8, while 6v6 certainly isn't better, it's not worse either.

I don't agree, I like the greater strategy of having 8v8 (this is supposed to be high level pvp after all), they should make Team Arena 6v6 instead

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

3) Make HA not suck by adding in different win conditions than just 'kill everything' or 'don't die for 2 minutes'.

I again don't agree, the different win condition would be something like Kill Count, Keep The Ghostly Hero Alive, or even worse, Capture X Number Of Points To Win.

hyro yamaguchi · Nov 17, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Hmmm, yeah, perhaps removing fame wouldn't be such a good idea, but still, if SF will be nerfed, or heroes removed, we will be stuck with a 1000 players who are r3+++ due to SF, just as it was with IWay, who will mess up ranked partys.

Anyway, not that much of a deal, but I did forget to mention another suggestion of mine: not gaining fame on the first 2/3 maps.

Lord Mendes · Nov 17, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

Anyway, not that much of a deal, but I did forget to mention another suggestion of mine: not gaining fame on the first 2/3 maps.

This would make it much harder for newer players to gain fame. Look, the problem is not with fame, but the party forming system. You think that fame is the reason you are not getting into parties but it really isnt. The problem is that finding a party is hard enough for rank 0-2 players and something needs to be done to help these players find teams of fellow unranked players.
Fame is the only thing that shows experience (note, skill has nothing to do with experience) in HA.
And let's face it, there would be absolutely no PUGs forming without rank.

Meta Dervish · Nov 17, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

But also: reset fame, this to whipe out the Iway/SF/ebayed past, and make everyone equal again, after 1 month of whining HA will be good again.

Good Idea, it will help clear up all the RX+ spam that new player has to go through and essentially return HA back to what it was when it was first released. People who have friends will keep playing with each other, so it won't affect them, and those who like to pug can have a chance to be in a more balanced group that isn't a complete mess. And as for those that rank elitist, better they gone than having all new players scared away for life.

But then ANet should also look at a new fame system, one that doesn't allow easy continous build up of fame point.

A person should lose rank for losing, and it should be something like no fame lost for losing at r1-3, lose 1-2 famefor losing at rank 3-6, and lose 4-8 fame for losing at rank 6-12. That would be a much better system because all rank is right now, is how nolife a person is in GW.

Oceans Fury · Nov 17, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Im just thankful Anet is taking a step to somewhat reducing the somewhat anti-social enviroment HA has turned into.

I personally dont care about 6v6/8v8, by now you should be over it, its highly likely theyll change it. Even if they do change it youll see the same builds, just amplified with more damage.

I really would like to see Heroes completely taken out of HA, if your that desprate for fame, start your own group and take some initiative. Anet had good intentions, I think they just over did it a little.

Taking the fame out of the first 2/3 maps? What would that accomplish? Hyro, you must expand on your ideas.

As to nerfing skills, give up. Theyll handle it when they come to it. Until then learn how to kite and spread out.

Thanks Gaile and hopefully you can keep us up to date.

-Fury

Sophitia Leafblade · Nov 17, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meta Dervish

But then ANet should also look at a new fame system, one that doesn't allow easy continous build up of fame point.

A person should lose rank for losing, and it should be something like no fame lost for losing at r1-3, lose 1-2 famefor losing at rank 3-6, and lose 4-8 fame for losing at rank 6-12. That would be a much better system because all rank is right now, is how nolife a person is in GW.

This would be a betta system of gaining fame/ranks but it wouldnt get rid of the elitist thats in HA since people would still be: LF R3+ players etc. A better way might be to have fame/ranks a Universal to all PvP thing, instead of the Gladiatior, and Guild ones being seperate. Eg gaining small amounts of fame for entering and wining in RA, a little more for TA more for HA and then even more for GvG. Then on currently ranked people would be able to gain ranks without having to fight in the arenas that are very much anto low ranks. The idea of havving to maintain it instead of just having it permently is a good idea though and would actually be a better way of telling peoples actually PvP skills. If they did somelike this idea which allowed my to finally gain ranks ie so i can actually take part in the competitons then id wouldnt mind if they removed Heros