Curse

shardfenix · Nov 17, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

Henchway has been around for ages. Since when has HA been strictly PVP?

Always. When's the last time you saw 4-man henchway hold halls? Never.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

Why are there complaints about Heroes when in reality they're simply a customized henchway.

Because being customizable means you can give them broken skills and interrupts that normal henchies don't have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

I would much rather play against heroway than against henchway.

I would too if I wanted to lose.

Gaile Gray · Nov 17, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

Ok Gaile, about this thread,it obviously points into my direction, I would like to apologise for my thread in riverside, I was just pissed that night, so I'm sorry.

It's seldom someone says those words in a forum, and I feel respect for you for doing so. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Good to see you in here Gaile, thanks for posting.

Thanks for the welcome. It's a little *fans face* unseasonally warm in here, but I think I can handle it.

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

Does that make any sense to you guys?

skillsbas8 · Nov 17, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Trudat Gaile

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Always. When's the last time you saw 4-man henchway hold halls? Never.

Because being customizable means you can give them broken skills and interrupts that normal henchies don't have.
I would too if I wanted to lose.

You can't beat a heroway team? Its unfair because they have broken skills?
Last time I checked, heroway teams are easily beat, and have access to the same skills that we do. If you don't want to lose, don't play at all.

Bread Fan · Nov 17, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Not at all Gaile. The heroes could have 8 elites in their bar for all I care. PvP is all about interaction with other HUMAN players.

Mysterial · Nov 17, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

If you're gonna take the heroes out of HA, give me somewhere else to play annihilation matches with them. I just want somewhere to play that simplest of gametypes with reasonably intelligent teammates when guildmates are not available.

Brother Redmund · Nov 17, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Gaile,
Nice to see some more input from you in here. I can see the argument you are making but here are a couple of examples of ai to perhaps counter such an argument.

Power drain on the monks; first of all, their reflexes are insanely good. That aside there is no discerning between the importance of the spell being interrupted according to ai. They see a spell, they p-drain it, it is simple enough to cast a sacrifice hex like para bond before casting a critical one to ensure you get it off. There is no learning and adaptation in behaviour such as one would see from a human opponent. There are patterns that can be inferred, and thus managed.

If I, as a decent, but by no means pro player, can be in a pug team thats rolled a "guild" team ranked 53 in the world at the time (consisting of 1 human and 5 bots) am I supposed to take something positive away from that? Well, I didn't. It meant nothing in that I felt no great joy winning, for the reason there was 5 bots in the team. If it had been a full human team I would have been singing from the rafters.

Regardless of the "extension of the player and performance logic" you pose,
its just not the same.

tomcruisejr · Nov 17, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

Does that make any sense to you guys?

ouch, that's an uninfusable spike!

well said Gaile <3.

Mr Dbest · Nov 17, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

It's seldom someone says those words in a forum, and I feel respect for you for doing so. Thanks!

Thanks for the welcome. It's a little *fans face* unseasonally warm in here, but I think I can handle it.

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

Does that make any sense to you guys?

"In the fantasy world of Guild Wars, players can engage in cooperative group combat, in single player adventures, or in large head-to-head guild battles. Guild Wars is a game that will constantly evolve, using streaming technology to provide players with the latest updates while they’re online. In addition, gamers will be able to play Guild Wars without a monthly fee in North America. NCsoft will announce a variety of pricing options for gamers in other parts of the world in the near future."

Right From Your (Anet's) first press release...http://guildwars.com/press/releases/...2003-04-22.php...An extension of a player is not other players......And the fact that human intuitivness can be defined to the point of "choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use." really ticks me off.....

Heros never will and never have belonged in pvp.....We have paid for a game where it is clearly established that we will be interacting with and playing against other PEOPLE.....Save the single player adventures for pve....=]

Clusmas · Nov 17, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

So heroes will be allowed to be used in the Nightfall Championship? Competing for a share in 100k? More money for the player that way.

dgb · Nov 17, 2006, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

Does that make any sense to you guys?

I can see your point, but if we're getting to one or two players controlling a set of AI heroes, you're getting to an RTS. It's StarCraft or WarCraft again. I don't want that sort of game, I want a game where everyone controls one player. That was part of the reason I played Guild Wars, I micromanage myself and only myself. I'm playing people who are doing the same.

At the end of the day, there's no logical argument to defeat your point because you've shifted the goals, which is what you (I mean you in the A-Net sense, not you personally Gaile) are allowed to do as developers. You've made NPCs an extension of a player. At the end of the day, that is not the Guild Wars I paid for and it's not the Guild Wars I want - you can make all the justifications you like, but logic statements (that cannot be defeated within the context of the game) aren't going to make me buy chapter four, it's whether I like the game.

The shift you made to the game by allowing NPCs to be an extension of a player makes me enjoy 'PVP' as much as I enjoy hacking off my arm with a cleaver. I only play this game for the PVP. You work out what the impact is on your Chapter Four revenue from me...

SilentVex · Nov 17, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

Does that make any sense to you guys?

Frankly, no. No it doesn't. Ai is ai is ai. Sure you can point it in the right direction, but if someone is micromanaging even a single hero to the point that a human can play 1 player, then they won't be playing their own character at all. Regardless of how well they're managed, it seems to me that player versus player team battles should be centered around, oh say, team strategy, cooperation, and coordination. It used to be about that. It should be about that in the future. It isn't now.

Edit: If someone wants to be pro at controlling ai they should go to Hero Arenas. It detracts from the spirit of what HA used to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Website:Gameplay:Synopsis:Built for Competition

The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.

Please, convince me how giving players pseudo control over some ai bots promotes player skill and teamwork. Honestly, you've lost sight of what the whole level 20 cap and pvp characters were created for in the first place: promoting player skill. Pure and simple. From what I've seen in the last month, exactly the opposite has happened. Apparently people got too skilled at HA, so you sought to revitalize it. I'm sorry, but pulling 2 people off the team and a few tiny map changes (tiny in the sense that they took little effort to make) is a cop-out solution. I appologize if I'm being rude, but it's the truth, blunt as it may be.

If you want to revitalize HA, and turn it into the high-end pvp it used to be, you could start by returning it to being based on player and group skill (ie no bots, maybe even take back some of those cluster-fork inducing map changes that promote luck). If you really wanted to impress us, you could take it a step further and add new incentives (new rewards that don't equate to small amounts of money useless to pvpers, maybe a new team/player ranking system that makes competition...competitive), and maybe even some changes that take effort (*gasp*, new artwork?!).

smaug86 · Nov 17, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

i dont have anything against heros, with a decent team is quite easy to beat them, its like free fame for real players, and its a real chance to let beginners to let started in HA since they have no rank

sai987 · Nov 17, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

If someone reads this thread he'll probably get the impression that noone likes heroes in pvp which is hardly true.

I say keep things the way they are now. HA is still a mater of skill. First of all, a heroway team rarely wins against an above average full player team. Second, if a heroway team makes it's way to the later maps at HA, that means that then human players in the team are pretty good and they got there cause they were skilled enough and smart to give heroes a good build and controll them during the fights. Finally, some may complain about builds like fire spike. There were always builds for HA that didn't need so much skill. Heroway firespike, like the rest of those builds, are easily defeated by a team that knows what it's doing, easier still since heros don't respond as players do in some situations like when they have ss on.

Botomline, the 6 player teams (no heros or henches) who would do well if there weren't any heros, will do well now too. The heroway teams just increase the number of competitors at HA (which is a good thing) and they mostly battle each other. Keep the things they way they are, it works fine.

psiii · Nov 17, 2006, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Does that make any sense to you guys?

I'm sorry but "no".

First of all, if Heroes were to be an extension of ones player that alone would be giving some imba advantages over real players or henchmen:
- insane interrupting reflexes (albeit sometimes silly),
- the fact that you can actually *see* the stack of conditions, enchantements or hexes on heroes, without any need of further communication between team players.

Also, while I admit that mastering controls over heroes can be an interesting task to achieve, I think that this has nothing to do with HA for the following reasons:
- as it is now, heroesway are just totally ABUSED because they are efficient *for fame farming* *without any* human control.
- What's the point in having heroes in HA while there is a whole PvP mode dedicated to them (heroes arena) ?
- Oh and not to mention that beating heroesway after heroesways can be pretty dull and boring...

In conclusion,
- remove heroes for HA,
- give more incentives to play heroes' arena for those people who actually want to test their *heroes controlling* skills

Thanks,
and sorry for my bad english and/or grammar/spelling mistakes

Quote:

i dont have anything against heros, with a decent team is quite easy to beat them, its like free fame for real players, and its a real chance to let beginners to let started in HA since they have no rank

Oh please! This has been debated to death! Yes, heroes might give a chance to beginners to play HA but:
- beginners won't learn anything from them!
- beginners who actually *want to play* with other unranked players will have F hard times to do it because the majority of unranked players will stick with heroesway till they get their bambi... thus gaining access to r3+ PUG...
- PvP means Players vs Players!

JR · Nov 17, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

Does that make any sense to you guys?

It sure does! And this is why Hero Vs Hero is a viable format.

As far as HA or other forms of strict PvP go - it doesn't apply. Four human players have the potential to play far more effectively than one person micro-managing three heroes - so every time you play against Heroes the win is meaningless, because you are fighting a sub-par "team" anyway. It turns it from an achievement (which is entirely what competitive players strive for) into nothing but a tiresome process.

I played HA for the first time in a while a couple of nights ago, every team we faced all the way up to Courtyard was a single human and NPCs. There was absolutely no enjoyment at all in wiping them - up untill Courtyard where the two "heroway" teams just both piled on us for actually daring to have a full team of human players. A complete waste of time.

Of course that rant is largely pointless, as you have already pointed out that there will be changes made to solve that issue. However; the point I am trying to make is that you should strongly consider taking them out all together. HA was fine without them - there are still henches for the truly desperate. Heroes should be PvE and HvH only - they do not belong in PvP at all by definition.

Arya Nibelrund · Nov 17, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

I'm afraid I have to agree with JR

Much <3!!!

stueyman2099 · Nov 17, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Thanks for the info Gaile.

Like many others, I am for the complete removal of Heroes from HA. The place for them, as JR pointed out, is the Hero Arena (not to be confused with Heros' Ascent).

Cass · Nov 17, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

Does that make any sense to you guys?

No heroes are not players! There IS a deep dark line. I'm really shocked that you don't see that.

Play just once against a human interrupter and a bot doing the same, the difference will be like night and day. The bot will never fail to interrupt you, but it will also keep trying to interrupt that one particular, quite predictable spell that takes a bit longer to cast than the others. The human player may let that one go, sometimes, to save the interrupt for another, harder, interrupt that he/she thinks will be more critical to interrupt. The human will lose motivation when he/she keeps missing spells... or become quite confident when the reverse happens, both of which will change the way in which he/she plays. A bot spellcaster will stupidly keep trying to cast spells, a human will become cautious or even run when facing an interrupter.

One human cannot play for 4 characters. Position bots en groupe a couple of times, maybe cast that prot spirit if you manage to keep the heroes' skillbars open, but that's it. The bot takes care of everything else.

I want to experience the full human opposition in PvP.

Makkert · Nov 17, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Thanks for the welcome. It's a little *fans face* unseasonally warm in here, but I think I can handle it.

If it's 'warm' (which it undoubtely is indeed), it is because people care about the game. It would be worse if they didn't gave a crap at all anymore...

Quote:

Now, to those who say "Heroes aren't players" I want to ask: Aren't they? If played well, aren't Heroes an extension of the player, not just in build, but in performance? A great player doesn't just make 'em and walk away. S/he uses the controls, chooses the spells, and stakes a flag for accurate targeting. It may be an NPC, but is it really, when s/he is back there choosing (1) location or placement, (2) passive, aggressive, defensive, and (3) spell use.

I'm not claming I'm a pro, not at all. But I can see the potential for others to be. I believe that a we need to consider there isn't such a dark line between "player" and "player guided, even player controlled AI."

An interesting way of looking at it. For me personally:
1) the interrupting skills of the heroes are unhumanly good. They aren't faced with some degree of lag, aren't suffering from 'reaction time', which gives them the upper hand over an human player to 'catch a skill'. The upside is that they probably don't make any difference in their selection to interrupt skill A or skill B. Still, its annoying to see a 1/2 second skill get interrupted, while you know that chances are low that an human player would catch that (unless you cast predictable).

2) pvp is also socialising in a way. you feel the thrill of facing an human who will react unpredictable. You don't fully know what will happen. Sometimes you get suprised by an enemy that makes an ingenious play, which is great. Sometimes you get suprised by a play that is ridiculously bad, which can be a good laugh (while keeping respect for the opposing party, one can still have a giggle at a silly play).
An hero will often react predictable, with the exceptionsituation that the hero-controlling player gives a direct order to his hero.

3) 9 out of 10 heroways, (at the time I played HA), where exactly the same: Searing Flame builds. This further feeds the feeling of predictability, and also causes the negative sentiments that always hang over a FotM. It just feels like farming in PvE.

Kind regards,

Makkert

Kabale · Nov 17, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

My suggestions, and these are really quite simple and should have been in from the start... but:

1. Give HvH a reason to play it (Commander title?)
2. Give HA back to the players, excluding Heroes completely but keeping Henchies (for the sake of when someone errors they get at least something to replace him/her).
And if we're lucky you'll...
3. Bring back 8v8.
And if we're even MORE lucky you'll...
4. Let us reclaim Tomb of Primeval Kings! (HA is really dark and dull...)

All really simple to do, and should make everyone happy. Now the people who truly enjoy playing with Heroes can do so in HvH and gain a title from it. Give some kinda PvE reward if you get 10 consec.

Now those who really want to earn Hero titles will have to work for it, as it should be, and has always been, before NF was released. This kind of environment is what made HA so much fun to play.