Curse

Burning Nexus · Nov 29, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Ok. I am fairly new to the game and don’t assume that I know everything about GW PvP or GW in generl.

That being said:

Are dervishes just not a good PvP class? I hardly see any of them in the arenas and mine, who has same skills unlocked, hits pretty hard sometimes, but seems to die a lot easier than most classes. Now I do attribute part of these to my “noobness” and the extreme depth and complexity of GW PvP. But in general I am just wondering if a dervish makes a good PvP char.

Now I know that “all classes can be good PvP chars” but I want a shear damage class. Besides Eles, can any other class beat the derv damage wise?

Thanks

Thomas.knbk · Nov 29, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

First of all, you don't need to make 3 identical threads.
Dervishes ARE a good PvP class, Avatar of Grenth is probably the most overpowered skill there is, after Energizing Finale, and Melandru is quite awesome as well. Arenas are just not a good measuring stick for PvP. You see lots of mending wammos there, but mending wammos are not at all good for PvP. I'd take a look at this thread by warskull and see if you can improve some more.

DieInBasra · Nov 29, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Besides Eles, can any other class beat the derv damage wise?

Haha

Anyway, play random arena less and press b more. Try find yourself a gvg oriented guild, as well.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 29, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Yeah, I LOL'd too.

Warriors have comparable damage, and dervishes are great provided the person playing them doesn't suck.

Avatar of grenth needs a nerf.

Burning Nexus · Nov 29, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Im guessing by the numerous LOL's that I was wrong about derv. damage.

Lol. Oh well. I told you I was a noob at the beginning.

So how come you laugh? I heard that dervs. were like #1 or 2 damage wise. Someone told me that warriors do have comparable damage, but dervs are capable of more, otherwise they wouldnt have given them worse armor than the wars.

Again, im looking for a class that is capable of dealing the most damage. I know it sounds like something a noob would say but its what im looking for. Any suggestions?

Thanks

TheOneMephisto · Nov 29, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Ele damage is fairly laughable outside of one build, searing flames. Searing flames also happens to be an extremely fragile and inflexible build.

Glitched · Nov 29, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Assassins are also really great at dishing out loads of damage, but its all spike and besides requiring a really great build you're extremely fragile.

Burning Nexus · Nov 29, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

So for me the Derv. seems like a pretty good class to be then right?

I mean they deal out high damage and have decent survivability.

I just need to learn how to play!

Off Topic: I never knew anything outside of WoW PvP and I mastered that within the week. I have a feeling this is going to take me some time to finally master and understand. Its just so great to finally find a game that doesnt just hand you cookie cutter classes and that requires you to actually put a lot of thought into what skills to use/take. Its great! Plus no subscription fee!

BTW: why do you say avatar of grenth is so overpowered? doesnt seem to be to me (lol I dont doubt that it is, dont flame...remeber im just a noob =P)

Thanks again guys

Farin · Nov 29, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Basically because when it's up you can just train targets removing any protection enchantments from them. You also use Wild Blow (Warrior/No attribute) to remove any defensive stances your target may be using. If the target was to kite you also use Harrier's Grasp (Dervish/Wind Prayers) to have a spammable snare. All in one character.

Bankai · Nov 30, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Dervishes just have a different kind of damage than other classes. The warrior has good pressure-ability, but also good spike-ability, about 50/50. Assassin has next to no pressure-ability, but awesome spike-ability. Dervish is somewhere in between those two, with good spike-ability but somewhat less good pressure-ability (counting only melee attacks, mainly because of the kind of slow swinging speed and the need for crits). But if you count in other skills like Harrier's grasp, the Dervish can also pressure pretty good.

I play a W/D with Harrier's grasp and Charging strike atm in RA, which also works pretty good. Going to see whether I can put it into my guild's gvg build.

Riotgear · Nov 30, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitched

Assassins are also really great at dishing out loads of damage, but its all spike and besides requiring a really great build you're extremely fragile.

Moebius Strike lets it get kept up, the fragility is the real problem. Second-weakest armor in the game on a melee class? Eww. Feigned Neutrality has made that a LOT better, but still...

Thom Bangalter · Nov 30, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Nexus

So for me the Derv. seems like a pretty good class to be then right?

I mean they deal out high damage and have decent survivability.

I just need to learn how to play!

Off Topic: I never knew anything outside of WoW PvP and I mastered that within the week. I have a feeling this is going to take me some time to finally master and understand. Its just so great to finally find a game that doesnt just hand you cookie cutter classes and that requires you to actually put a lot of thought into what skills to use/take. Its great! Plus no subscription fee!

BTW: why do you say avatar of grenth is so overpowered? doesnt seem to be to me (lol I dont doubt that it is, dont flame...remeber im just a noob =P)

Thanks again guys

Yeah, Guild Wars PvP is incredibly deep, as long as you play GvG. The other gameplay is kind of lacking, as you'll see from various threads on this forums.

When Playing a melee class such as a Dervish or Warrior, the key is to effectively pressure targets. Spread damage around, find crappy kiters and punish them, drain the monk's energy by making them spread prots around while you simply click on a new target and smack them around too.

Avatar of Grenth adds to pressure by preventing monks from effectively protting up players, as grenth will shread through it in seconds. You'll get the hang of it by watching warriors in top guilds (I reccomend watching Remstar the Red and Im A Paladin, though Pally is often criticized for overextending like mad and putting a lot of pressure on his monks by going deep into enemy backlines, but after playing against him, I really felt the amount of pressure he does to a team--I had to spam heal party just because of him alone). Ensign wrote a great article on combat mathematics (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php) and perusing various forums you'll learn how to play a more competent melee class.

Playing Melee classes, I've found that it's surprisingly deep and I gave up on it because frankly, I'm not that good at it. But I'll be the first to say Guild Wars PvP takes far longer than a week to master. I still suck and I'm a pretty decent flagger and blindbot if I do say so myself.

Just about every profession has a lot of depth on how to play effectively, except for hex spammers. They're pretty simple.

Bugeater · Nov 30, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

The warrior has good pressure-ability, but also good spike-ability, about 50/50. Assassin has next to no pressure-ability, but awesome spike-ability. Dervish is somewhere in between those two, with good spike-ability but somewhat less good pressure-ability (counting only melee attacks, mainly because of the kind of slow swinging speed and the need for crits).

This is just incorrect. Derv's have great pressure damage. Counting only weapon attacks, Hammers and Scythes are essential tied at top the heap, followed by Axes. Swords and Spears are next, doing essentially equal damage. Daggers, Bows and Wands are pretty low on the damage totem pole. When you factor in the occasional double (or even triple) hit that you can get with a scythe, they're the best pressure damage weapon in-game at the moment. In addition, they have better non-attack skills which really help out their pressure (you even mentioned Harrier's in your post).

A melee spike must have a deep wound, there's just no way around it. Derv's have 3 ways to appy one, none of which are astounding. Reaper's Sweep is conditional, Wearying Strike gimps your next attack (unless you're in Melandru's), and Wounding Strike is conditional with no additional damage. That alone makes Derv's a little so-so at spiking compared to warriors.

Patrograd · Nov 30, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

This is just incorrect. Derv's have great pressure damage. Counting only weapon attacks, Hammers and Scythes are essential tied at top the heap, followed by Axes. Swords and Spears are next, doing essentially equal damage. Daggers, Bows and Wands are pretty low on the damage totem pole.

Unmodded weapon stats
Hammer 1.75 seconds, 19-35 damage (27 per hit avg), 15.43 DPS
Scythe 1.75 seconds, 9-41 damage (25 per hit avg), 14.28 DPS
Swords 1.33 seconds, 15-22 damage (18.5 per hit avg), 13.91 DPS
Spear, 1.5 seconds, 14-27 damage (20.5 per hit), 13.67 DPS
Axe, 1.33 seconds, 6-28 damage (17 per hit average), 12.78 DPS
Shortbow/Flatbow, 2 seconds, 15-28 damage (21.5 per hit), 10.75 DPS
Wand/staff, 1.75 seconds, 11-22 dmage (16.5 per hit), 9.43 DPS
Daggers, 1.33 seconds, 7-17 damage (12 per hit average), 9.02 DPS
Longbow/Recurve, 2.4 seconds, 15-28 (21.5 per hit), 8.96 DPS
Hornbow, 2.7 seconds, 15-28 dmg (21.5 per hit), 7.96 DPS (+10% inherent AP)

other factors:

Warrior weapons are boosted slightly by the inherent AP in their primary attribute, although this is small. Dagger damage is increased markedly through the use of their primary attribute. Two handed melee weapons require the user to have less armour through the lack of shield, this hurts especially on low armoured melee classes like dervish and assassin. Scythes can potentially strike three opponents per hit.

Conclusion: Bugeater is correct, Scythes hurt, alot.

Symbol · Nov 30, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Just using the unmodded stats are misleading. Scythes crit hard so you have to include the effect of crits. The scythe attacks are generally quite good at inflicting extra damage, not so much in terms of the +damage (they are a bit better than hammers) but in terms of the extremely attractive recharges. When you have big hitters like victorious sweep on a 4s recharge it really adds up.

Earendil · Nov 30, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Also - since scythes don't use adrenaline you don't need to do regular attacks just to charge and you can get the most out of wild blow. And when adding the potential AoE (I know, I know, it's irrelevant for PvP but still, you never know when a chilling victiory will hit someone) I think scythes outclass hammers as DPS goes. For utility though, KDs beat almost any other utility scythes can bring (and there are many).

Assuming a 20% chance of critical scythes already have the same DPS as hammers anyway.

The downside for scythes (like hammers) is the slow attack rate that prevents from spiking, while the current defensive metagame hardly allows kills through pressure DPS. Scythes have the Eremite/Mystic Sweep combo that is way faster than regular attacks yet with lower damage potential.

So ...Dervishes are not the main killers of an 8 people team in high level PvP, yet they can fulfill some specific roles better than other classes.

At lower levels of PvP using a Dervish as main damage dealer can be successful.

Earendil

Thomas.knbk · Nov 30, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

The downside for scythes (like hammers) is the slow attack rate that prevents from spiking

Pardon me? Devestating>Crushing>Fierce is very common in adrenospike.

As for eles outdamaging warriors/dervishes, read Why Nuking Sucks by Ensign

Bugeater · Nov 30, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Just using the unmodded stats are misleading. Scythes crit hard so you have to include the effect of crits.

I agree. Using a 15>50, customized, vamp weapon, with 14 attribute, you get numbers like this:
Axe 26.20 DPS
Sword 25.62 DPS
Hammer 29.47 DPS
Dagger 23.40 DPS (25.62 DPS with 13 Crit)
Scythe 29.57 DPS
Spear 25.70 DPS
Wand 15.02 DPS
S.Bow 21.07 DPS
(my previous post indicated that daggers were lower than they really are - I was just using the same formula as the rest, omitting double hits and critical strikes. Thanks Patrograd)

But it really doesn't change the analysis much as far as the fact that scythes are a the top of the stack with hammers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Devestating>Crushing>Fierce is very common in adrenospike.

True enough, and Earendil should have omitted his parenthetical note, but he does have a valid point that scythes are harder to spike with due to their attack speed. Hammer spikes have the advantage of starting with a knock-down which does a great job of preventing kiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Scythes have the Eremite/Mystic Sweep combo that is way faster than regular attacks yet with lower damage potential.

Mystic Sweep has incredible damage potential.