Curse

Vahn Roi · Nov 27, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I'm sure they'll get nerfed right before Chapter 4 comes out, just like the Rit Lords haha.

phoenixtech · Nov 27, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

QFT. Such wisdom is... iQ-esque.

I think it opens up a very interesting field of skills...

"Don't listen!" Leadership. Counter-ballad. 10e, 8rc. For 1..8 seconds, all foes in earshot lose the next shout cast on them.

"They're lying!" Leadership. Counter-echo. 5e, 10rc. For 2..8 seconds, target foe's shouts, ballads, and echoes expire 50% faster. This echo renews everytime a shout is cast on that foe.

Intimidating Laugh. Leadership. Counter-shout. 5e, 2rc. Target foe loses one shout. 50% failure rate with 7 leadership or less.

Mockery {E}. Leadership. Counter-shout. 5e, 8rc. Target foe loses all shouts, ballads, and echoes, and for 1...8 seconds, cannot be the target of further shouts, ballads, and echoes.

Sonic Boom. Air Magic. Hex spell. 10e, 20rc. Cast a sonic boom that deals 5...25 damage to all foes in the area. For 2..8 seconds, any foes affected by sonic boom cannot be the target of further shouts.

Ambitious strike. Strength. Melee attack. 5e, 4rc. If this attack hits, you deal an additional 5..20 damage for each shout on target foe.

Ideas?

Chances of ANET adding new skills without selling us an expansion is very slim. The best bet right now is to make changes to existing skills to balance out the paragon problem instead of waiting 6 month until the next chapter is released. I know for certain if they do not remedy the current skill imbalance problem relatively soon I won't be buying the next chapter.

Also, WHY is ANET so stuck on not releasing skill balances until the ladder season is over, especially one without mega prize money involved? Good players will be able to adapt relatively fast anyways.

granor · Nov 28, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Also, WHY is ANET so stuck on not releasing skill balances until the ladder season is over, especially one without mega prize money involved? Good players will be able to adapt relatively fast anyways.

I have seen this statment in many different places. The answer is just not very interesting. Anet does this for two main reasons.
1) To be sure they only nerf skills that really are broken. It takes a while to find good builds, it takes a while to find good counters. Anet wants to make sure they really are fixing a broken skill and not hitting something that looked broken just because it was new and people were not used to it yet.

2) They want to nerf the skill just enough to make it fair. Not so much that it is useless. Now I know this is hard to do and sometimes you run into a skill that you just have to nerf so bad that it sucks. But with extra time to look at skills it helps Anet understand how the skill has affected the meta-game, what builds the skill works well in and how to attack it not just to nerf it but to balance the skill.

phoenixtech · Nov 28, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by granor

I have seen this statment in many different places. The answer is just not very interesting. Anet does this for two main reasons.
1) To be sure they only nerf skills that really are broken. It takes a while to find good builds, it takes a while to find good counters. Anet wants to make sure they really are fixing a broken skill and not hitting something that looked broken just because it was new and people were not used to it yet.

2) They want to nerf the skill just enough to make it fair. Not so much that it is useless. Now I know this is hard to do and sometimes you run into a skill that you just have to nerf so bad that it sucks. But with extra time to look at skills it helps Anet understand how the skill has affected the meta-game, what builds the skill works well in and how to attack it not just to nerf it but to balance the skill.

That's assuming you only have one chance to fix something, they can easily do incremental skill balances to gradually get to a point where a skill is "fair". Much like the progressive assasin buffs that they've released over the last several patches.

Riotgear · Nov 28, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

Other than chants (Which would be shut down by vocal minority) how would he?

Echoes.

Patrograd · Nov 28, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Maybe rather than introducing new skills, which clearly isnt going to happen until chapter 4, it is easier to introudce a new condition, deafness

"While suffering from deafness target cannot recieve the benefit of any chants or shouts"

And then amend certain existing skills, probably Elementalist skills like lightning strike and meteor, to deliver this condition for a reasonable duration, and/or amend mesmer or necro skills so they add damage to people under the effect of shouts.

Byron · Nov 28, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Maybe rather than introducing new skills, which clearly isnt going to happen until chapter 4, it is easier to introudce a new condition, deafness

"While suffering from deafness target cannot recieve the benefit of any chants or shouts"

/signed.

They have blindness already, so...

granor · Nov 28, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

That's assuming you only have one chance to fix something, they can easily do incremental skill balances to gradually get to a point where a skill is "fair". Much like the progressive assasin buffs that they've released over the last several patches.

I agree with you on principle. But the situation gets very complicated in practice. First of all you have to decide what skills you are going to fix. Now how are you going to decide this? I would suggest the following:
1) The skill is used in most (80% or so you can argue this number but I would assume everyone would think some number is needed) top 50 team in ha or GVG
2) The builds use by these teams would be drastically changed if this skill didn't exist
3) The skill is detrimental to the balance of the format (HA or GVG) in some way.

I would define detrimental as it eliminates entire strategies from the game. Like skill X prevents you from making a GVG build that does not hold out until VOD to win or something like that.

So now the question comes down to time. How long are you going to wait to see if 1, 2 and 3 are true. Does this skill really change the meta-game fundamentally or is it just new and poeple are trying it out. Is there some new strategy that you can incorporate that will defet the new build the skill is used in? Are you sure by fixing this skill you do not unleash some other much worse build onto the meta? I know all of this stuff just takes testing but testing takes people and time. The more people you have the less time it takes, but the more $$$ it costs.

Clearly we are the cheapest testers Anet can get but we also expect the game to be somewhat stable and working. I am not sure how the community would react if guild XXX was in the top 10 simply because they happen to be playing the correct build before XXXX skill was "fixed". I mean if everyone could use the build then that means significant time was allowed to pass with the skill in place.

And of course you need to have time to work out all the standard coding bugs you get when you change things.

I understand Anet has taken up the MTG idea of having new abilities in each release and that this format has caused some major pains for MTG before. And I do feel that shouts are broken due to the lack of counters. But given that this is what they are doing I feel a dictated minimum time skills must be in the game before they are allowed to be changed is good. I feel this way simply because I do not want to have to pay a monthly fee to get Anet more testers and I think if the game changes too often people will stop playing it.

master_of_puppets · Nov 28, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

A deafness condition would not work well,(there are no conditions that counter something). I think they should just nerf the paragon shouts hard.

Byron · Nov 28, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

A deafness condition would not work well,(there are no conditions that counter something).

???

Blindness and weakness counter attacks. Dazed counters spells. We'll let you by with a warning this time...

master_of_puppets · Nov 29, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

???

Blindness and weakness counter attacks. Dazed counters spells. We'll let you by with a warning this time...

You don't get it do you... Every team has attacks, every team has spells(or close to it) But does every team have shouts? Far from it. When paragons are nerfed, hopefully to oblivion, even less shouts/chants will be used. Very often this will be a useless condition skill to have due to other team having no chants/shouts.

Do I have to remind you that only 1/5th of all classes have shouts? A condition that affects only 2 out of 10 classes is just stupid, not to mention very few warriors bring more than 1 shout in pvp, most of the time 0, so its more like 1 class out of 10.

Why make an entire new condition, and modify/create a bunch of skills to counter one thing when you can just nerf it?

We'll let you by with a warning this time.

Patrograd · Nov 29, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

But does every team have shouts? Far from it.

Where have you been? Almost every team has shouts

Quote:

Do I have to remind you that only 1/5th of all classes have shouts? A condition that affects only 2 out of 10 classes is just stupid, not to mention very few warriors bring more than 1 shout in pvp, most of the time 0, so its more like 1 class out of 10.

Only 2 classes can deliver shouts, but every class benefits from them, heck even NPCs benefit from them. Thats like saying you dont need to do something about smite becasue only monks can do it

Quote:

Why make an entire new condition, and modify/create a bunch of skills to counter one thing when you can just nerf it?

Because no-one wants to see paragons nerfed into non-existence, they just want them to be counterable

furbat · Nov 29, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

???

Blindness and weakness counter attacks. Dazed counters spells. We'll let you by with a warning this time...

Wasn't Dazed originally silence? That might be something to think about.

Riotgear · Nov 29, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

So "deafness" isn't applicable because not every team has shouts? Then why are things like VM and roaring winds legitimate?

Anyway, in the case of EF, there's a simple thing to realize: Most energy-restoring abilities have some sort of major limitation. High recharge time, health sacrifice, requiring an enchantment to eat, taking up an elite slot, being removable, etc.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to end with a nasty nerf to Paragons in general because they really made a dumb move by making a utility class which has virtually no soft counter, and a very limited number of hard ones, the only truly threatening one being a hex which no other class could really care about, except maybe YAA wars.

There are only two real ways to fix such a situation: Either beef up the counters like Roaring Winds and make them more useful, or make Paragons suck.

master_of_puppets · Nov 29, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Where have you been? Almost every team has shouts

That is only because many shouts are imbalanced, and have potential for abuse (like Incoming) And still, not every team has them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Only 2 classes can deliver shouts, but every class benefits from them, heck even NPCs benefit from them. Thats like saying you dont need to do something about smite becasue only monks can do it

Yes, they DID do something about smite. They nerfed it, which was the proper thing to do. They didn't add a whole bunch of counters or a whole new condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Because no-one wants to see paragons nerfed into non-existence, they just want them to be counterable

I know I know I'm just pissed off and fed up right now like many for having to deal with this paragon crap for over a month now, among other things like heroes.

I think instead of all that counter-adding crap, they should just nerf the shouts and give some of them casting times, its a little weird but better than nothing.

Byron · Nov 29, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

But does every team have shouts? Far from it. When paragons are nerfed, hopefully to oblivion, even less shouts/chants will be used. Very often this will be a useless condition skill to have due to other team having no chants/shouts.

Well, in that case, a condition such as deafness would have even less effect on the metagame. The balancing effect is its presence more than anything else. Blindness is a good example - the possibility of facing it makes teams prepare for it. Just being around, a possibility on an enemy skillbar, makes teams think twice before bringing 4 dragon slashers. The fact that there is no possible counter to shouts (diversion can't solve everything) is the problem. As a team, you end up bringing shouts or being exploited by them.

I think the game would be far more interesting with shout-hate rather than the usual nerf-to-hell.

See also: rit lords. The fix that was most clammored for in this forum was a reduction of their range(ie, aggro-bubble). Such a fix would have brought interesting tactical considerations to play. But instead, the energy cost was raised 100-150%. That's not a very well-thought out plan, it's simply an extermination of a pest. Paragons present a similar problem, but few players want to see another class exterminated, myself included.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 30, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

That's not a very well-thought out plan, it's simply an extermination of a pest. Paragons present a similar problem, but few players want to see another class exterminated, myself included.

Ah yes which brings us again to the debate of Anet releasing chapters too often, making new characters for PVP every release with an abundance of imbalanced skills, and then the poor alpha testers resorting to desperate measures and nuking a whole class. So how many characters do we actually get after 2 new chapters? ANET will have some serious thinking to do for chapters 4 and on. I'd place my bets and say a trilogy is enough before the whole game breaks down PVP wise anyways.

Riotgear · Nov 30, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

ANET will have some serious thinking to do for chapters 4 and on. I'd place my bets and say a trilogy is enough before the whole game breaks down PVP wise anyways.

More like 10 classes is enough. When a class already has a clear place in the game, it's not hard to keep it balanced just adding skills that round out the weak points. It is hard to keep something balanced when it's an entirely-new concept that none of the existing campaigns even have a counter for.

master_of_puppets · Nov 30, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Well, in that case, a condition such as deafness would have even less effect on the metagame. The balancing effect is its presence more than anything else. Blindness is a good example - the possibility of facing it makes teams prepare for it. Just being around, a possibility on an enemy skillbar, makes teams think twice before bringing 4 dragon slashers. The fact that there is no possible counter to shouts (diversion can't solve everything) is the problem. As a team, you end up bringing shouts or being exploited by them.

I think the game would be far more interesting with shout-hate rather than the usual nerf-to-hell.

See also: rit lords. The fix that was most clammored for in this forum was a reduction of their range(ie, aggro-bubble). Such a fix would have brought interesting tactical considerations to play. But instead, the energy cost was raised 100-150%. That's not a very well-thought out plan, it's simply an extermination of a pest. Paragons present a similar problem, but few players want to see another class exterminated, myself included.

My suggestion was to give shouts cast times. There's your shout-hate, you can interrupt them now. No need for modifying/creating a bunch of skills to include a new condition that's only for 1 specific class, really.

And rits werent exterminated, the rit lord was too powerful, that was anet's fault but aftert that the rit was still used. Of course since NF few are using them, why would you when there is newer class that's way more imbalanced than the rit lord was, and will likely be nerfed soon.

And whats wrong with exterminating a pest? Why should teams have to worry about bringing counters for absolutely everything? How come no one ever asked for counters to shouts before NF when only warriors had them? That is because the shouts were not imbalanced and there was no need to worry about them.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 30, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Specific counters are bad. Izzy has mentioned before that the main way to keep a PvP game from becoming rock-paper-scissors is to keep counters general and toolbox-style. Stuff like interrupts, diversion, energy denial, enchant removal, etc. are all good counters because they aren't limited in their usage. They all have a wide variety of things to use them on.

If you have things like specific counters, like vocal minority or "deafness", things begin to break down. It becomes a game of "if you have enough deafness and ways to shutdown condition removal, you win vs paragons, if you don't, you lose." I think that everyone agrees that we don't want that to happen.

IMO, the best way to nerf shouts would first to reduce overall effectiveness of many, stuff like energizing finale just have too good of numbers. Second, you need to make them more susceptible to general counters, like e-denial or interrupts. Things like giving shouts cast times and reducing the effectiveness of leadership would allow people to counter them with general counters that again work against multitudes of things. More general counters would also be useful.

Another idea is to reduce the paragon's base armor level. Giving the paragon warrior-level armor + watch yourself + stand your ground + shield simply makes them impossible to spike or pressure. For other midline characters, if they're giving you trouble or making problems for your offense, you can stick a warrior on them and force kiting, making them either waste their monks' energy or reduce their effectiveness. You can't do that to paragons very well, and paragons also reduce the effectiveness of forcing kiting on the entire mid-backline. They need a reduced armor level, and some of the +armor skills they use need to be changed.