Curse

Divineshadows · Nov 29, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

W/A

16 (12+4) axe
12 (11+1) strength
6 deadly arts

Shadow Prison {E}
Dismember
Critical Chop
Executioner's Strike
Disrupting Chop
Rush
Frenzy
Rez Sig

E/*

16 (12+4) water
13 (12+1) energy storage

Shatterstone {E}
Vapor Blade
Blurred Vision
Ice Spikes
Freezing Gust
Water Attunement
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Rez Sig

N/Mo

14 (10+4) soul reaping
12 (11+1) curses
10 healing

Reaper's Mark {E}
Signet of Lost Souls
Faintheartedness
Parasitic Bond
Reckless Haste
Well of Darkness
Gift of Health
Rez Sig

Mo/D

14 (10+4) divine favor
12 (11+1) protection prayers
9 (8+1) healing prayers
6 earth prayers

Divert Hexes {E}
Draw Conditions
Mending Touch
Gift of Health
Reversal of Fortune
Signet of Devotion
Vital Boon
Conviction

The idea behind this build is to spread degen, control melee with hexes, and pressure key targets (particularly casters) with the axe warrior. Spikes get called every 20 seconds at a minimum (though is wholly unnecessary against the bad team -- the pressure alone beats them) and can be called more frequently though the warrior will not be able to teleport more often than this.
The warrior player is key for communicating when he is ready to spike (need dismember charged at a minimum, preferrably executioner's as well) and 15 energy for the spike. The elementalist calls the spike target and counts down. The spike itself delivers well over 600 damage on a 60 AL target so scoring kills with it is not an issue when properly executed. Oftentimes, the spike target is not at full health to begin with due to degen and axe pressure.

On the spikes, the monk has the warrior selected to quickly draw in case the opposition is using blindness. The necromancer can also select the warrior to toss a gift of health on the warrior in case the opposition decides to toss some damage the way of the warrior during the frenzy.

I designed this combination last night and ran it with Zui and some others and it worked quite well once we got the communication down pat. It plays differently than the typical pressure build you see in TA, so it is a fun change of pace. Teams that have a lot of knockdowns and use the knockdowns often (i.e. gale and shock spam) on the ele and monk pose problems for this build, but this can be fought past by the warrior pressuring those targets that are the source of the knockdowns.

skillsbas8 · Nov 30, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I'd drop the superior on the monk.

Zui · Nov 30, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

I'd drop the superior on the monk.

Why? Please elaborate.

skillsbas8 · Nov 30, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

The only DF skill is signet and the heal bonuses from DF are minimal for -75 health. Maybe just a preference but I'd run minor DF.

Divineshadows · Nov 30, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

The only DF skill is signet and the heal bonuses from DF are minimal for -75 health. Maybe just a preference but I'd run minor DF.

Running divert already means you cannot go with 16 divine favor cause it is important to hit the 12 prot breakpoint. For 4v4 arenas, I would rather have the extra 3 health healing from every skill I use which improves energy efficieny. Also, devotion signet is a large time investment. The lower divine favor goes, the less the investment becomes worth it.

Vital boon + high armor already protects the monk well enough. Health armor, +30 health from shield. What more do you want? I run at 599 health and 97 armor (107 v blunt). A minor or major would simply make it tougher to heal others.

Absum · Nov 30, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

We ran a build almost exactly like that a couple weeks ago. I'm not sure what we ran in place of the W/A, may have been a thumper but for some reason i think it was a mesmer. My memory fails =,=;; anyway, shatterstone and vapor blade are a great spike until they get interrupted. Controlling a melee heavy team that knows how to interrupt key hexes won't be easy, especially if they're preveiled. Chances are they'll have their way with the necro and monk, especially considering that the monk's self heals are weak when conditions aren't being spread. I suggest dropping a point in DF and putting 1 or 2 more in earth and substitute signet of pious light in place of SoD so you're able to remove vital boon in clutch situations. If you'd like to argue the weak heals with your point about higher armor, wild blow = -24 armor, elemental weapon = -10 armor. Now you're down 34 armor against a decent thumper with no way to save yourself other than praying to stay alive until vital boon ends.

Just some things to take into consideration ^,^

Thomas.knbk · Nov 30, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

I'd drop the superior on the monk.

Disagree. Normally monks should not run superiors but with Vital Boon it's really not a big deal.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 01, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

11+1+2 DF
10+2 Prot
8+1 Heal
6 Earth

11+1+2 Soul
10+2 Curse
10 Heal

Better attribute spreads, if only for the extra 5 (? something like that) health you get.

Every advantage counts!

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absum

We ran a build almost exactly like that a couple weeks ago. I'm not sure what we ran in place of the W/A, may have been a thumper but for some reason i think it was a mesmer. My memory fails =,=;; anyway, shatterstone and vapor blade are a great spike until they get interrupted. Controlling a melee heavy team that knows how to interrupt key hexes won't be easy, especially if they're preveiled. Chances are they'll have their way with the necro and monk, especially considering that the monk's self heals are weak when conditions aren't being spread. I suggest dropping a point in DF and putting 1 or 2 more in earth and substitute signet of pious light in place of SoD so you're able to remove vital boon in clutch situations. If you'd like to argue the weak heals with your point about higher armor, wild blow = -24 armor, elemental weapon = -10 armor. Now you're down 34 armor against a decent thumper with no way to save yourself other than praying to stay alive until vital boon ends.

Just some things to take into consideration ^,^

Heals on the monk should be fine with a pretty nice specced GoH on the necro and mending touch. Mending touch is just a really really nice skill for saving yourself, because you will usually get deep wound + a nice heal most of the time, and if you get another condition (like bleeding, poison, w/e) then it just becomes that much better.

Absum · Dec 01, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Heals on the monk should be fine with a pretty nice specced GoH on the necro and mending touch. Mending touch is just a really really nice skill for saving yourself, because you will usually get deep wound + a nice heal most of the time, and if you get another condition (like bleeding, poison, w/e) then it just becomes that much better.

Didn't see GoH on the necro. That's a good idea and takes some weight off my former argument

Divineshadows · Dec 01, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absum

elemental weapon = -10 armor.

Wrong, the monk uses health insignia armor. Not the +10 armor v physical. Use a shield (and a focus in a higher energy weapon set) with +30 health and +10 armor v blunt. Use a +5 energy axe with +5 armor. With vital boon up, the health is 599. With conviction, the monk has 97 armor (60+5+8+24) and 107 v blunt. If they wild blow/wild throw you out of conviction, then you still have 83 v blunt which still makes it sub-optimal for the thumpers to train you (instead of one of your teammates) as you kite and cast reversal. For extended kiting trips, the necro can gift you making you have to stop even less often to cast reversal.

Absum · Dec 02, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Wrong, the monk uses health insignia armor. Not the +10 armor v physical. Use a shield (and a focus in a higher energy weapon set) with +30 health and +10 armor v blunt. Use a +5 energy axe with +5 armor. With vital boon up, the health is 599. With conviction, the monk has 97 armor (60+5+8+24) and 107 v blunt. If they wild blow/wild throw you out of conviction, then you still have 83 v blunt which still makes it sub-optimal for the thumpers to train you (instead of one of your teammates) as you kite and cast reversal. For extended kiting trips, the necro can gift you making you have to stop even less often to cast reversal.

the -10 was referring to the +10 against blunt dmg that won't be effective when using an elemental dmg weapon, which makes it 73 armor.

Clamatius · Dec 03, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

I played a bunch of games with this last night. Works pretty well with one issue. Rangers are very problematic, especially if combined with melee pressure - e.g. the 2x thumper, NR ranger, monk team. The 2s ele spells are easy pickings for distracting/savage shot and if you use too many hexes shutting down the ranger their melee will kick your face in. On top of that, NR is very nasty (at least you can Vapor Blade it).

Absum · Dec 03, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

I played a bunch of games with this last night. Works pretty well with one issue. Rangers are very problematic, especially if combined with melee pressure - e.g. the 2x thumper, NR ranger, monk team. The 2s ele spells are easy pickings for distracting/savage shot and if you use too many hexes shutting down the ranger their melee will kick your face in. On top of that, NR is very nasty (at least you can Vapor Blade it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absum

shatterstone and vapor blade are a great spike until they get interrupted. Controlling a melee heavy team that knows how to interrupt key hexes won't be easy, especially if they're preveiled

Case in point

Etrik · Dec 05, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Mantra of Resolve on the E instead of GoLE? Haven't ran that ele build myself, so I don't know how fast you drain your E.

Clamatius · Dec 05, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

You're not swimming in energy but you've got a fair amount. Depends on how fast you're spiking and how much you're snaring. I did have to wait on a spike a few times to get a bit more energy but I suspect that's because I missed hitting the glyph on recharge. I was hitting the ele spike pretty frequently on different targets to try to make their monk waste energy on overheal/overprot.

Another approach might be to squeeze "Shields Up!" onto the Warrior somehow but then I suspect that guy may be low on energy. Both characters have pretty tight bars and it's going to hurt no matter which skill you pick to drop.

Clearly there's a slight tweak needed though because if they have just one good ranger you're kinda screwed imho.

Divineshadows · Dec 06, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

You're not swimming in energy but you've got a fair amount. Depends on how fast you're spiking and how much you're snaring. I did have to wait on a spike a few times to get a bit more energy but I suspect that's because I missed hitting the glyph on recharge. I was hitting the ele spike pretty frequently on different targets to try to make their monk waste energy on overheal/overprot.

Another approach might be to squeeze "Shields Up!" onto the Warrior somehow but then I suspect that guy may be low on energy. Both characters have pretty tight bars and it's going to hurt no matter which skill you pick to drop.

Shields up is a better idea than putting mantra of resolve on the ele. Dropping disrupting chop for shields up is not too hard, but more difficult is dropping strength and deadly arts to get a spec in tactics (~9) to make shields up worth it. Mantra of resolve is just anti energy management pure and simple. Glyph of concentration is better than mantra of resolve IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

Clearly there's a slight tweak needed though because if they have just one good ranger you're kinda screwed imho.

Most of the TA maps have some sort of obstructions or bridge "glitch" that the ele can use against an interrupt ranger. If the ele outplays the interrupt ranger (which is not simple but is possible) with careful use of obstructions, then this build still wins. More problematic was getting dazed (via the pet attack used by thumpers) on the ele which would then get drawn to the monk. With one thumper training each, it is impossible to get mending touch off so you just have to use reversal (with anti-melee help from the necro and ele), kite your *** off, and wait out the dazed duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

I played a bunch of games with this last night. Works pretty well with one issue. Rangers are very problematic, especially if combined with melee pressure - e.g. the 2x thumper, NR ranger, monk team.

Did not play against any NR teams with this build, though I am certain a properly executed NR build would beat this team. For a hex build that can beat good NR teams, switch the shatterstone/vapor blade ele for a spoil victor necro and switch the W/A for a D/W like so:

N/Me

16 (12+4) blood
10 inspiration
9 (8+1) curses
3 (2+1) soul reaping

Spoil Victor {E}
Life Siphon
Blood of the Aggressor
Malaise (mainly used to punish RaO users, rangers, other melee, and eles)
Leech Signet
Signet of Humility
Mantra of Inscriptions
Rez Signet

D/W

16 (12+4) scythe mastery
12 (11+1) mysticism
7 (6+1) wind prayers

Avatar of Grenth {E}
Heart of Fury
Harrier's Grasp
Wearying Strike
Victorious Sweep
Chilling Victory
Wild Blow
Rez Sig

Swapping in these two characters and leaving the divert hexes monk and reaper's mark necromancer's bars and attributes the same completely changes it from a hex spike build with some pressure to a hex pressure build with much less spike element. Typically, the opposing monk is the target of the spoil victor and the reaper's mark necro can help cover the spoil victor with parasitic bond. However, the reaper's necro rotates the reaper's+faintheart degen across the other 3 non-monk members of the opposition. The dervish typically does not attack the monk (much), but does have the avatar and wild blow to nuke all enchantment and stance based defenses. Signet of Humility is typically used to shutdown elite hex removal skills, but can have defensive applications as needed. Blood of the aggressor is used an assist to help the dervish get kills. The dervish easily ensures that NR does not stay up long by focusing on any oath trappers and making sure whirling defense is not up. The dervish informs the monk whenever wearying strike needs to be used so that the weakness can be drawn.

Clamatius · Dec 06, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Great tips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

If the ele outplays the interrupt ranger

That'd be the big if right there, given that it was me on the ele.

Maybe I'll just leave the build as is for now and try to suck less.

Oh, one other thing: our monk swapped in SoA instead of sig devotion. I can't say I disagree. I like devotion in GvG but in TA the monk gets trained often enough it can be hard to use a 2s cast.

As you say, the necro/monk pair is a good starting point and there's a lot of other possibilities for the other two roles. We actually played against one team where they had the necro, monk and warrior but had an black spider strike assassin instead of the ele. I forget what the assassin was running for an elite. Maybe moebius but could have been prison. I think we should have beaten that team but managed to lose anyway due to subpar play.

The less spiky version is interesting, thanks for the listing. I haven't played derv a whole lot (usually I'm on midline) but from the little I have I found chilling victory to be good but spendy without an external enchantment source (like orders).

Divineshadows · Dec 06, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

Oh, one other thing: our monk swapped in SoA instead of sig devotion. I can't say I disagree. I like devotion in GvG but in TA the monk gets trained often enough it can be hard to use a 2s cast.

For monk builds that lack active energy managment or refund mechanisms (i.e. inspiration management, glyph of lesser energy, etc.), I really view signet of devotion as a mandatory skill. Your monk getting trained is really the optimal scenario in this build given that the monk has such high armor. Lightning orbs hitting for 70 and normal hammer hits from a rampage thumper hitting for 10-20 (sometimes even less than 10) is a sound indication that your opponents are playing into your hands. In battles where your opposition focuses all their damage on your monk, the monk has to simply kite and occasionally use reversal and mending touch on self while your team slams the train with AoE hexes like ice spikes and blurred vision, the necro uses faintheart and assists the kiting monk with an occassional gift. All the meanwhile, your team spikes at will. It is sub-optimal for the monk to stop and use signet of devotion for self healing while being trained (the monk will take likely at least as much damage from stopping for this long as the singet heals -- worse if the monk gets knock-locked). In these matches, I oftentimes never have to use signet of devotion.

Against smarter teams though that recognize the skill combination your monk is using and decide to spread more of the damage to the ele and the necro (but in particular the ele), this is where the monk needs signet of devotion since less damage is reduced (lower armor) and you have to stretch your energy further. Assuming the opposition is not using any hexes, your options to heal others include reversal of fortune, gift of health, and draw conditions. Sometimes, I use draw conditions just to get the divine favor bonus when I am fine on energy but need some healing power to fill the gap in the recharge of other skills. Oftentimes, this "random" draw ends up drawing a condition such as deep wound or crippled as it lands. Signet of devotion really shines at filling the gaps in between the recharges of other skills and filling the gaps in your energy. You can also use signet of devotion pre-emptively on an ally when you expect damage to land on a given ally at a certain time (even though everyone on your team is at full health).

Lastly, signet of devotion allows you to remain active while hiding energy though your different weapon sets when you have an opponent that is denying you energy. Shield of absorption is a great skill, but does not offer the flexibility that signet of devotion does and, unfortunately, the only way to fit SoA on this monk's bar is to run dismiss condition instead of draw conditions and mending touch. Dismiss condition is weak IMO and losing the draw/mending touch combo makes this monk so much weaker that this is not offset by gaining SoA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

The less spiky version is interesting, thanks for the listing. I haven't played derv a whole lot (usually I'm on midline) but from the little I have I found chilling victory to be good but spendy without an external enchantment source (like orders).

Reversal functions as an external enchatment source that helps fuel the energy of the dervish. If the dervish doesn't receive extra energy from taking damage and receiving reversals, then the dervish can always use a zealous scythe for a brief period of time while heart of fury is up to help regain some energy. Most of the time, though, the dervish should be using a vampiric scythe (I believe it is 92+5 damage using a wild blow on a 60 AL target). Chilling victory is used rarely when trying to pressure due to its cost/recharge and more often when trying to spike down an already low target. Wild blow and victorious sweep are the skills used when the dervish is just trying to pressure. Wearying strike is certainly reserved for it's spiking capability (as use too often puts added pressure on your monk to move the condition). Wild blow+victorious+wearying+chilling while under heart of fury is quite a nasty damage spike. If the target is really low already, then just use wearying+chilling to help ensure a kill.