Curse

Bugeater · Nov 30, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

The scatter AI is what's busted. Right now it only triggers after the second AOE damage in ~1 second. NPC's should know what skills are AOE and scatter after the first damage of an AOE skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

I think they should just leave it. As you said, people have accepted the fact that it's broken and have been dealing with it for some time now.

I disagree. Yes people have been dealing with it, but that doesn't mean it's not broken. NPCs are an important part of GvGs and anytime there're NPCs there's going to be some sort of NPC abuse, but imo the more you can reduce that the better.

l Batman l · Dec 01, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Yeah, it's called Victory or Death

It's fine as it is.

Div · Dec 03, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

There's nothing really wrong with the current system. Don't change what's been working...

Satans Dominatrix · Dec 04, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunning

Put Savage Shot on the archers = gg.

But as far as I know, the main 'exploits' are:

1. Catapulting over half the archers at 20:20 (or there abouts).
2. Aggroing some NPCs before they reach their destination, thus allowing your NPCs to get in position first.
3. Waiting till all the NPCs reach their destination and then dropping AoE on them.

Possible solutions:

1. Have each NPC come out in single file, separated by about 3 seconds.
2. Either prevent the NPCs from attacking until they reach their destination, or making them behave the same as the GL - by making both team's NPCs move at the same pace.
3. Make the NPCs spread out in a more irregular formation, at least to prevent more than half dying at once. Or put Savage Shot on them.

Those are my ideas.

About the exploits you posted.
1. I belive the cata is put there partly for that reason.

About your solutions
1. Look at the time it would take your first archer to get there from your last(saying you have them all up)
That will leave alot of pressure off if they all come in at later times. It would be much easyer just to pick them off one by one.
3. Savage shot on all your archers would be somewhat unbalanced imo.

Overall the current VoD system seems to work fine.

If they have any aoe then shut down or pressure that target. Maybe push up into them so they have to back off so they won't aggro your npcs.

I know its not always that easy just to push up, but thats part of the tactics if you want to have a your npcs.

This whole idea of changing VoD imo is pointless. You will be taking away alot of tactics involved in VoD. Your basicly asking Anet to make your npcs get to the flag stand unharmed so you can have a balanced playing field.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 04, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Just making archers flee from meteor showers would be a good start. I mean, who can argue with archers fleeing from meteor shower?

taxed · Dec 05, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I'm not really a fan of the current VoD either. Personally I think it's really dumb to have a match decided upon by NPC's. Imagine, if you will, losing that 10k prize because of NPC's.

Anyway, if anything is changed, a complete overhaul needs to be made. Maybe something like this:

At VoD, instead of the VoD chant and the NPC's leaving the base, grant automatic Death Penalties to both teams. Instant -60% DP for all. Now the interesting part...for each Player Kill made, that team DP reduces by 5%. For each NPC kill that team DP reduces by 1%. In this senario, controlling the flag AFTER VoD only brings the DP up by 10%, meaning that the stand is important, but again this mechanic should not mean you automagically win. Aggressive team play is the key to victory.

For example, team 1 is playing a defensive VoD build, and makes 0 player kills, and kills 5 npc's. This team would be slapped with -55% DP instantly. Team 2 is a highly offensive spike team. They make 8 player kills and 7 NPC kills. They are slapped with -13% DP. Now look at the new face of the battle if you will. Team 1 gets each player DP'd out with a single kill on their team. Team 2 has a huge advantage because of agressive play and should in theory overrun team 1 and kill off the guild lord in his throne.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 05, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

so basically you're saying that if you go up against a spike team, and try to split/hold out to vod to win, the spike team should be given an advantage? sounds bad.

taxed · Dec 05, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Absolutely. PvP is all about beating up the opposition's team. Aggressive play should be rewarded, while the team that is banking on NPCs to win the match for them should be punished. It's no fun being in a match where the first team to sprint to ops guild lord at VoD wins...that's just stupid. I've seen enough games on observer mode that is just this...2 teams who cannot make any kills what-so-ever (obviously designed for this tactic no less...), waiting on VoD, only to directly sprint through the other team to the guild lord when he is no longer defended. This is just bad gameplay IMHO.

In my senario, what if team 1 was a pressure team with very well played defense? Spike teams rely on relatively weak protection against their spike, and if that is done very well, the spike team won't make as many kills. If that defensive team adds pressure to their build and made some kills, the entire outlook changes. Also note that a split allows for NPC ganking, reducing their VoD death penalty. If the flag stand team on the defensive squad can hold up under the spike pressure and forces the spike team to split, that IS good game play (as this is an aggressive manouver) and as such would be rewarded (spike team loses effectiveness against split, loses NPC's as team 1 is DESIGNED to split and kill npc's while forcing spike teams to split up). I believe in this case, good play>generic spike team.

I've been in enough GvG's where my team has had the upper hand throughout the match, only to be beaten by NPC's as we didn't bring any AoE damage skills to kill off those archers. The necessity to bring these skills removes some of the tactics and limits builds that can be effective. VoD is really the only beef I have with Guild Wars' PvP system.

A system like the one I proposed, solves the defensive "turtling" team, rewards NPC ganking and greatly rewards aggressive play. Shouldn't this be what PvP is all about? (with the current way things are run, 8 Mo/E, all with healing/prot skills, Glyph of Sacrifice and Meteor shower is probably viable, standing there the entire match protting the crap out of themselves, and simply droping meteor shower at VoD for the win....now isn't that fun?)

chardy · Dec 05, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

i dont think GoS MS is that powerful at vod...you see a fire ele in their team you know they have it, you see them gos at vod you know they will MS soon.. u see the massive lumps of rock coming down on npc's ...p spirit ftw. and with 90 sec recharge dont really have to worry about it anymore. i think the worst thing about vod is that some maps the npc's just stand still in the base and dont even come out at all e.g uncharted isle or on isle of wurms 3 - 4 archers stand away from flagstand so arent even aggroed at all, that is the worst part of vod imo.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 05, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

The system you proposed makes it pointless to hold the flagstand or kill the other team before VoD. Your DP gets set to 60% even if you were max morale and they're all nearly DPed out. All people would be trying to do is kill the other team's NPCs, so you'd still get matches that were 20 minutes of waiting and 5 minutes of action.

Remember, VoD is in the game to end matches, and it should end them in favor of the team that was already winning. If you don't want teams that are losing to stall to VoD, you need to build the mechanics such that VoD is a bad thing if you're losing. Right now the tables can turn and there's always the chance for a gank, so if you can't win pre-VoD you just want to turtle or run around the map for as long as you possibly can.

taxed · Dec 05, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The system you proposed makes it pointless to hold the flagstand or kill the other team before VoD. Your DP gets set to 60% even if you were max morale and they're all nearly DPed out. All people would be trying to do is kill the other team's NPCs, so you'd still get matches that were 20 minutes of waiting and 5 minutes of action.

Remember, VoD is in the game to end matches, and it should end them in favor of the team that was already winning. If you don't want teams that are losing to stall to VoD, you need to build the mechanics such that VoD is a bad thing if you're losing. Right now the tables can turn and there's always the chance for a gank, so if you can't win pre-VoD you just want to turtle or run around the map for as long as you possibly can.

Actually, a team with a 10% morale boost would be at 50% DP (10-60), as you get slapped with 60% worth of DP when VoD hits. This should (I think) force teams to make kills, not make them wait for VoD, which happens all too often. Or change the automatic DP number to 40%. You could even change the Moral boost bonus for kills to balance the numbers out (5% per unique player kill, 2% per NPC kill or something along those lines). It's just a "different" concept, attempting to create a more aggressive environment. To be fair, I can see your point, but on the flip side, there should be a HUGE advantage to making more kills than your opponent. Running around would be pointless, as the opposition team could take advantage of it and kill off NPC's. This premice would provide the greatest rewards to a perfectly played, well balanced team. There are enough NPCs to kill to make a pretty substantial morale advantage just by killing them off. I think a system like this would eventually force more split teams and more importantly more balanced teams. Remember one thing about a system like this...If one team decides to turtle, and prevent their own deaths, and the other team is designed for aggressive play, I firmly believe the aggressors will win, either by killing off all the npc's and controlling the flag stand (VoD dp of -25) and the turtle team makes no kills resulting in -60% dp, who is gonna win? Obviously the -60% dp team AUTOMATICALLY LOSES because if a team is fully at -60dp, they lose.

It won't take very long indeed for teams to play much more aggressivly IMHO, as this would offer a huge reward. Conversly if you don't play aggressivly and don't manage a kill, you automatically lose. (if both teams fail to make a kill, they BOTH lose!)

Patrograd · Dec 06, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardy

i dont think GoS MS is that powerful at vod...you see a fire ele in their team you know they have it, you see them gos at vod you know they will MS soon.. u see the massive lumps of rock coming down on npc's ...p spirit ftw. and with 90 sec recharge dont really have to worry about it anymore. .

if they are dropping the meteor shower/searing flames/surge/pain on you, and not your NPCs, then you dont have much to worry about anyway

JR · Dec 06, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardy

i dont think GoS MS is that powerful at vod...

Yeah it's not like anyone won play-offs with a build based around it.

....wait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardy

you see a fire ele in their team you know they have it, you see them gos at vod you know they will MS soon.. u see the massive lumps of rock coming down on npc's ...p spirit ftw.

You are going to prot every Archer with a 10 energy spell, and still keep your team up against NPC and player damage at VoD?

Right on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardy

i think the worst thing about vod is that some maps the npc's just stand still in the base and dont even come out at all e.g uncharted isle or on isle of wurms 3 - 4 archers stand away from flagstand so arent even aggroed at all, that is the worst part of vod imo.

That's simply a bug, not a 'part' of VoD.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 06, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by taxed

It won't take very long indeed for teams to play much more aggressivly IMHO, as this would offer a huge reward. Conversly if you don't play aggressivly and don't manage a kill, you automatically lose. (if both teams fail to make a kill, they BOTH lose!)

GvG already rewards aggressive play and building. Every team that's good at build-making goes in with powerful offensive strategies. Even iQ's linebacking build is aggressive, in that it creates a threat that the enemy has to deal with before VoD hits. Weaker teams sometimes play ultra-defensive builds, but that's more the fault of 321spike than VoD.

If you push a team back into their base you get to kill all their outlying archers and their knights, plus it's really difficult to turtle with only one bodyguard. All this talk of teams turtling to VoD so they can GoS + MS your lord is silly - I haven't seen a single team doing that since the bodyguard/VoD change.

The reason teams turtle isn't because they built around defense instead of offense. Teams turtle because they got pushed back at the flagstand or can't handle a split the enemy is making, so they give up morale and try to hold or run around until VoD hoping they can make something happen. The gankability of the guild lord at VoD makes teams think that they always have a chance to win, so they'll do all they can to prolong the game when they're clearly outmatched. My team does it. Every team we face does it. The only teams I usually see /resigning after the outcome of the match becomes obvious are PuG guilds, because VoD means there's always a chance to win.

You don't want every match going to VoD? Then VoD needs to be built so that the losing team can't turn around and pull out a win through a gank. Guild Lord ganking at VoD is a textbook irregular rewards system - it barely ever happens, but it happens just enough that you'll stall every time in order to try it. The alternative is losing the match so hey, why not?

Your suggestion seems to be that if a team does not have at least one person with a morale bonus at VoD, that team instantly loses the game. My problems with that are twofold. Firstly, it greatly increases the importance of morale compared to any other resource - I could have wiped your entire base of every NPC with clever splits and ganks, but if you kept running the flag and bodyblocked my flagger to boost early on you win the game. Secondly, it's going to create a lot of stalemates. Many close games have neither team wiping at the stand or getting morale pre-VoD, which would cause both teams to auto-lose. VoD should bring a close game to an end, but not by just making it a draw.

In short, if you fix Guild Lord ganking, you remove a lot of the incentive to stall and run around waiting out the timer. I'm sure some teams will still do it, because most players think it makes them better to lose slowly than to lose quickly for some reason. However, it would at least be a start.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 07, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In short, if you fix Guild Lord ganking, you remove a lot of the incentive to stall and run around waiting out the timer. I'm sure some teams will still do it, because most players think it makes them better to lose slowly than to lose quickly for some reason. However, it would at least be a start.

So make it something like the NPCs in the guild lord area (archers + knights + bodyguard) stay with him and advance with him when the time comes?

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 07, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

So make it something like the NPCs in the guild lord area (archers + knights + bodyguard) stay with him and advance with him when the time comes?

That's one solution, though I'm not sure it's the best one. The current 5 minutes between NPCs advancing and the lords coming out is pretty crucial for split teams that aren't built for 8v8, because it forces the enemy to fight on two fronts. Even if they've held their NPC advantage they still have to defend it at the flagstand AND defend their lord in the base. The only problem is the stupid Guild Lord aggro mechanics that can allow a split team to keep the lord in the base indefinitely, but that's another matter.

I think it would be simpler to just tweak the current damage cap mechanic. VoD ganks rely on giving your offense 20-30 uninterrupted seconds with the Guild Lord, so rather than beating the other team you just have to bodyblock or snare them. If the lord's damage cap was significantly lower at VoD, you couldn't expect to keep the enemy monks away for that long and you'd actually have to fight the enemy team. Make it take a minute to drop the lord instead of 30 seconds and you've basically made ganks impossible.

If you remove the off-chance to win via a gank at VoD, you remove the incentive most teams have to stall until VoD. Why run around the map or defend your piddly bodyguard when you know you'll be facing their entire NPC force once VoD hits? You're better off /resigning and going into the next match at that point.

Schorny · Dec 07, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

The only problem with VoD is that NPCs only spread out after they arrived at the flagstand and only if they are first.

They simple should walk spreaded out to the flagstand. And they shouldn't keep shooting arrows at walls...

That's all I'd like to change.