Curse

nephilim · Oct 02, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

First off, sorry if this is the wrong forum/has been discussed, but I didn't notice it elsewhere and search comes up with really old threads.

We're still nearly a month away from the glories of Spiritual Pain so until then, RA will continue to have an unbeilievable nuisance in Spirit Spamming Communing Rits.

Consider that with 16 Communing...
Pain does 32 armor-ignoring damage
Bloodsong does 26 life-stealing damage
Shadowsong pre-patch did the same amount of damage as Pain while also applying blindness. Assuming the damage wasn't updated, it does 21 armor-ignoring damage
Painful Bond makes all spirit attacks deal an extra +21 damage

32 + 26 + (21*4) = 142 armor-ignoring damage, and thats with non-elite skills. If you drop Painful Bond, it's still 79 damage a volley.

Wanderlust/Earthbind are also typically combined to increase the annoyance with long knockdowns on anyone attempting to attack/cast spells in range.

Now, these spirits do have an inherent downside - they're stationary and they don't always focus fire on the same target. However, in the restrictive environments of the Arenas and the goal being "Annihilate the other team", this suddenly becomes a very serious problem as the enemy team turtles inside this small area with a potent defense (shadowsong and wanderlust) and an offense that can tip the scales.

The number of arena matches lost because someone on my team leeroys into the spirit mass are too many to count. What do you guys do when you're up against offensive spirit Rit builds like this? And don't say "Wait for Spiritual Pain".

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 02, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

This kind of Communing Rit is a pretty strong RA template. It's something that even a bad player can run because the build will exploit the stupidity of other bad players. On a given RA team there's usually one bad player, so Leroying into the spirits is not uncommon.

As a warrior, I usually deal with them by moving in and out of spirit range a lot and doing quick spikes when my adrenaline is built. The random players on the Rit's team are equally likely to be Leroy's, so it's often possible to 'pull' them by applying a bit of damage, then running away. This also gives you time to Heal Sig.

clonmac · Oct 02, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Not to mention if that Rit is also decently spec'd into Channeling. They can throw some very cheap very frequent 100+ damage spikes at the monk every few seconds while the spirits rip the warrior to shreds.

...I love Rit's! haha

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 03, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

The problem is actually there aren't enough "Leroy's" out there. Time and time again I'll be playing with my warrior ele shock+distracting blow covers the important spirits. Now if I and only I "Leroy" to the rit guess what happens, full out gank on echo

In either case, if your team is dumb enough to let the rit get off 2+ before someone charges it, its gg from the start. It's even more painfull when the other 3 characters on the rits team use the spirits in a turtle effectively. How long does it actually take to cycle through 4 players while running forward? Yet people just end up sitting around and eying each other down for far too long.

The Real Roy Keane · Oct 03, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

The problem is actually there aren't enough "Leroy's" out there. Time and time again I'll be playing with my warrior ele shock+distracting blow covers the important spirits. Now if I and only I "Leroy" to the rit guess what happens, full out gank on echo

In either case, if your team is dumb enough to let the rit get off 2+ before someone charges it, its gg from the start. It's even more painfull when the other 3 characters on the rits team use the spirits in a turtle effectively.

I actually agree with you here- it's either get right on top of the Rit before he gains a foothold, or stay out of range. While in a serious game I'd probably opt to stay out of range, there's no point initiating a ten minute standoff in RA..

minor · Oct 03, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

This build is just a pain in the a$$ in RA. You can sit there and stare at each other or charge in and die; which is what my teamates normally do.... . As far as getting him before he gets the sprits up i play monk alot so not happening. Just another build that takes advantage of the Ra system.

Makkert · Oct 03, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

This kind of Communing Rit is a pretty strong RA template. It's something that even a bad player can run because the build will exploit the stupidity of other bad players.

pure gold.

...and sadly true... just take a empathy / backfire mes into RA... you'll see.

-Loki- · Oct 03, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

pure gold.

...and sadly true... just take a empathy / backfire mes into RA... you'll see.

It's fun watching a tainted necro suicide when you put backfire on him. And again when he is ressed. And again.

racso · Dec 12, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Hi everybody, I was sending a feedback to ANet complaining about this issue "Spirit Spammers", particularly in RA, they reply me telling me that post my thoughts in any fan site message board, so here I am, complaining about this issue.

I think spirits ritual or whatever is called should be nerfed real bad, I do a lot of RA and every time I see a Rt in the enemy team I say OH OH, and rush to target BEFORE he/she spam the spirits. Is so annoying, they usually (the enemy team) stay inside their spirit range forcing the other team to battle close the spirits, is such a big abuse that they can lay down as many spirits as they want.

I was talking to a friend about how can I deal with this situation and what he told me has sense: finish the spirits first (the most dangerous) as they have little HP and blinding rituals take considerable amount of time to recharge, and then deal with the Rt. In contrast with characters with pet, there is no need to care about the pet as by itself it can't harm you much.

At this point, sometimes work, but dealing with spirits while the enemy team is ON you trying to kill you is a lot of pressure, but in the meantime, I'll stick with this strategy until ANet nerf these Rt skills.

Throttle · Dec 12, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I think some means of restriction should be put on spirits. Maybe the Ritualist shouldn't be allowed to cast as many as he/she wants, maybe the spirits should need to be spaced out so you can't just make a cluster of death and doom, or maybe they should have 1hp instead of like 150 or whatever they have now. If I attack while the spirits are up I'll die, and if I run around and try to kill them I'll die. Something should be done because in RA, a Ritualist is way too devastating.

Orange Milk · Dec 12, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

LMAO

I guess If ya can't beat'em, hav'em Nerfed, cause my Mommy said they are not fair.

LMAO

such a silly thread

Riotgear · Dec 12, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Reviving a thread that's been dead for 2 months is.... nevermind.

Although I do think the effectiveness of spirits in RA/TA can showcase why they may never be buffed: The scaling is completely screwed. Any mass-buff that sees use in GvG has a simple time limit, and scales down in efficiency as player count decreases. Spirits have charge limits instead, which basically means the duration increases as player count decreases.

I'm still suspecting that spirits won't get a decent buff for this reason: It'll be hard to make them viable in GvG without making them disgusting in RA/TA. The only real solution would be to do something like make the spirits' health increase with the number of people in range when it's spawned, which of course, they probably won't do.

Yes, I know GvG is the focal point of balance in the game, but it's generally better to have something be underpowered than overpowered.

tomcruisejr · Dec 12, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

i was about to take this thread seriously until i read 'RA'.

Riotgear · Dec 12, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

i was about to take this thread seriously until i read 'RA'.

You don't take any threads seriously though.

Servant of Kali · Dec 12, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

wow incredible, nerf spirits? Because leeroys in RA have problem?!

Have you EVER played spirit ritualist yourself? Do you know how ridiculously easy is to kill a spirit? Or interrupt it?

Let me tell you something - whenever my team losses in RA to spiritspam, it's NEVER EVER spirits fault. It's this:
1) my team waits till spirit guy puts down all spirits or
2) they charge in and start smacking everyone else but never touching any spirit
3) no one cares about having interrupt in RA as long as you have Mending and Galrath slash.

I love spirits. Atm i dont use them much, but i love them. Why? Because it's the best way to count on the stupidity of average RA player, and win, not because or better skills, but because you're smarter.

And i like winning if i outsmart the enemy.

I farmed over 50 gladiator points in the first week of Factions, because of so many WMo and other leeroys. Oh joy..

Divineshadows · Dec 13, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

wow incredible, nerf spirits? Because leeroys in RA have problem?!

Have you EVER played spirit ritualist yourself? Do you know how ridiculously easy is to kill a spirit? Or interrupt it?

Let me tell you something - whenever my team losses in RA to spiritspam, it's NEVER EVER spirits fault. It's this:
1) my team waits till spirit guy puts down all spirits or
2) they charge in and start smacking everyone else but never touching any spirit
3) no one cares about having interrupt in RA as long as you have Mending and Galrath slash.

Yeah, that pretty much sums up how spirits in RA work. Wanderlust in particular. If the team with the rit plays it smart and camps in near range of the spirits and doesn't venture off AND the opposing team is retarded and doesn't touch the spirits or interrupt them, then it is like autowin for the wanderlust ritualist. Any hammer user or dervish can kill a spirit in a couple swings. When the spirits are placed carelessly close together, scythes rape them. Swords and axes take more swings and just slightly more time. Assassins can attack spirits as free energy management (the low level of spirits is basically an auto-crit) and still kill spirits relatively fast.

When I monk RA, some of my teams just simply don't attack the spirits. These teams simply don't deserve my monking services. I've had a thumper on my team refuse to attack shadowsong "because it would blind him (whereas if he attacks one of the opposing team members the shadowsong *might* attack someone else on my team). I bitched him out after my team lost, because he didn't kill the spirits and I use draw conditions to draw blind fast anyway.

Just last night I asked Ensign to approximate the DPS of a wanderlust / shadowsong / pain / bloodsong ritualist, so he switched off his RA monk to roll an RA ritualist (Bad Player Detector -- could the name for an RA rit be any more appropriate? I think not). After his tests, he concluded that the DPS of the rit is ~60-70 armor ignoring damage (which is quite high) once the spirits are set up and nobody touches them. This is without painful bond (hex spell). With painful bond, the DPS goes up even more. If the opposing team kills the spirits quickly (and every subsequent time they get put down), then the DPS and utility of said rit approaches zero.

Teams that have no melee and no skill interrupts (i.e. ranger interrupts, gale, and some mesmer interrupts) are probably a team that will not go far in RA, but those that do have strong caster based offenses can simply attack from a range outside of the spirits by hexing up the opposition while staying out of spirit range. Far too many RA casters though just stand in the middle of a spirit field and get owned. That's RA for you though -- it's the same sad story eternally repeated:

1. Rit puts up spirits
2. Dumb opposition rushes in to try to kill without paying any attention to the spirits.
3. Dumb opposition blows up and gets sent back to an RA district.

This happens so often it's like an RA ritual. Just like every time you see a player use arcane echo you know there is a 99% chance of a crappy elite skill to follow. Or like everytime you play a warrior and get that retarded warrior attacking your backside as you try to attack something else, that if you turn around to attack him there is a 99% chance you will get ripostes used on you.

Throttle · Dec 13, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

The thing is - do you have time to run around and kill 4-5 spirits in the middle of a fight? Of course everyone will be on you, and it still takes a bit of time, my dervish has to hit each spirit 2-3 times which is upwards of 6-10 seconds per spirit (less if I want to waste energy on it). If I try to do that, I die. You can't expect healing or expect your teammates to also attack spirits because this is RA (Retard Arena) and people's actions seem as random as the roll of a dice.

And as for attacking the Ritualist before he can put up all his spirits, I don't see how that's even possible except on a select few maps or in situations where it's somehow safe for you to charge directly into the opposing team, alone.

What bothers me is the fact that the Ritualist, by casting a few spells that require little to no managing or "skill" to use, can completely dictate how the game goes and can basically force a loss on the opposing team if they don't play in a specific way. If they do anything other than what's required to counter a cluster of spirits dealing a combined 70-90dps+blind they'll lose. That's why I don't like how it works.

Divineshadows · Dec 13, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttle

Of course everyone will be on you

Your teammates have no melee or caster shutdown and you don't have a monk? Then that RA team sucks and you don't want to be on it. Thank the rit for allowing you to re-enter RA and get a better team (hopefully) the next go around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttle

and it still takes a bit of time, my dervish has to hit each spirit 2-3 times which is upwards of 6-10 seconds per spirit (less if I want to waste energy on it).

As a dervish I would use energy based attacks to eliminate spirits faster cause time is always an issue in PvP. With an attack speed boost up such as heart of fury, 3 hits takes less thank 2.5 seconds (span of time between the first and last hit) for a scythe. How did you come up with 6 to 10 seconds per spirit? Melee builds without an IAS suck, even then 3 hits would still be executed in approximately 3.5 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttle

If I try to do that, I die. You can't expect healing or expect your teammates to also attack spirits because this is RA (Retard Arena) and people's actions seem as random as the roll of a dice.

I repeat:

Your teammates have no melee or caster shutdown and you don't have a monk? Then that RA team sucks and you don't want to be on it. Thank the rit for allowing you to re-enter RA and get a better team (hopefully) the next go around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttle

What bothers me is the fact that the Ritualist, by casting a few spells that require little to no managing or "skill" to use, can completely dictate how the game goes and can basically force a loss on the opposing team if they don't play in a specific way. If they do anything other than what's required to counter a cluster of spirits dealing a combined 70-90dps+blind they'll lose. That's why I don't like how it works.

Agreed that the build is really devoid of skill and the ritualist has nothing much to do but kite while the spirits are on recharge. However, as Wasteland Squidget pointed out much earlier in this thread, the opposing team is just as likely to have retards as your team in RA. Therefore, there is a good chance they can be drawn away from the spirits by one of your teammates kiting away from the spirits. As a melee, you can look for the opportunity of opposing players out of the range of shadowsong/wanderlust just as you would look for the opportunity of opposing players that have gotten outside of a ward melee + ward stability.

Seamus Finn · Dec 13, 2006, 07:43 AM // 07:43

... This is RA, I've owned people with a Monk and a scythe in there. Is it really a surprise that spirit spammers own? Trappers own in there too. Anyhow, if you are playing any kind of offensive role in RA you should know to be overly aggressive. Why? because most RA players suck and will need to spend a good 30 seconds looking over the skills on their bar before they know which one to try clicking. Similarly, if you see a Rit, you charge him. If you have any kind of interupt, you shoudl be able to shut him down with jsut one. You should know the spirits she can bring and which ones will own your build(usually Shadowsong and Wanderlust, I just take out whichever one is first). Spirit Spammers have little self heal and can't use it when spamming 3-5 second spells. Just pound him/her into the dirt. This tends to shut down rits quite well. If his group has a monk and he keeps the rit up and able to get enough spirits out despite you raging in his face and yours doesn't... welcome to RA.

Any moron can use a rit, jsut like he/she can use a toucher or any number of othe rbuilds that own idiots in RA. Please don't infer that they are overpowered, it just shows you to be one of the morons they own.

Taala · Dec 13, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

... This is RA, I've owned people with a Monk and a scythe in there.

Was fun observing you do that against NUKE by the way.