Curse

moko · Dec 08, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I don't dislike ZB as much as I used to, and the other monk in our backline enjoys using it in our split build - largely due to lack of Gift of Health in the play-offs.

Outside of this bizarre limited situation, I see no reason why you would run ZB in 8vs8. Gift is a very efficient fairly spammable heal, and doesn't eat up your elite slot - allowing you the luxury of a stronger more versatile backline such as RC/Divert, which is what I run outside of NF/Core builds.

The exception obviously being in split heavy builds, or 4vs4 Arenas.

QFT. cant say it nicer than that.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 08, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

JR, have you really tried a Mo/D with Avatar of Balthazar? That seems kind of pointless. 120 recharge>15sec duration>2 sec cast? You can't pump Mysticism as Mo/D.
You were right about the rest though. Since GoH, your elite has become much less important.

Blame the Monks · Dec 08, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

RA and TA are not considered 'competitive' by a large portion of the community, though ZB is indeed pretty decent there.

False. TA has a more advanced meta and a higher standard of play than tombs, especially outside the US. Finally, as a forum to practice individual play, it doesn't get much better than TA. But back on topic.

Like JR, I have fallen out of love with this skill in GvG. It has some potential, but I am preferring other elites. Its not that its a bad elite, but rather than goh is so powerful and it allows you to use a more conditional (and powerful) elite.

JR · Dec 08, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

JR, have you really tried a Mo/D with Avatar of Balthazar? That seems kind of pointless. 120 recharge>15sec duration>2 sec cast? You can't pump Mysticism as Mo/D.
You were right about the rest though. Since GoH, your elite has become much less important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Mostly just messing around for fun, but it goes to show how flexible you can be with Gift. Which is why the Core/Nightfall only play-offs suck for Monks.

Reading is key!

Zuranthium · Dec 08, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

I don't even see how that would be fun. It's just pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Outside of this bizarre limited situation, I see no reason why you would run ZB in 8vs8. Gift is a very efficient fairly spammable heal, and doesn't eat up your elite slot - allowing you the luxury of a stronger more versatile backline such as RC/Divert, which is what I run outside of NF/Core builds.

You can't really have Infuse and GoH on the same bar. Infuse is pretty necessary right now. Therefore, ZB/Infuse.

I see little reason for running RC in this metagame. I haven't come up against a heavy condition build since the very beginning of the season. ZB is good against pressure anyway and your Draw Condi teammate can remove any really bad stacked conditions.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Dec 08, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

The discussion went something like this:
Monk "I really like ZB, it has been working great for me in arenas".
Me "I don't like ZB and wish you'd run something else for GvG, especially since you aren't running Infuse."

Realize that nothing in my quote said anything about TA and I see how ZB is potentially very nice in a 4v4 environment. I feel that this discussion kind of proves that skill choice depends on the environment. In TA being below 50% health is much less of a risk than in GvG, so waiting for someone to drop below 50% before healing is a feasible strategy where in GvG it is a liablity. Also in a two monk system you have overlap issues. I really like TA, but I mostly GvG-- most gvgers recognize TA as the second most competitive gametype.

I've run Glyph of Lesser/Aegis/ZB in PvE, but I'm somewhat attached to my Assassin secondary for GvG because of the durablity and movement. That said glyph of Lesser energy is very nice and deserves regular abuse.

In all honesty, if your monk really performs best with ZB and you don't want to lose a bunch of games where he/she adjusts to another elite, you may just want to fill in the utility somewhere else in the build(ZB may even already be great in the build you are running).
In my opinion, the aegis chain limits the power of GoLE since you basically only use it when it's your turn in the chain. Thus, a great skill is leashed by an ok skill thats really just there to protect bad kiters in the first place(any decent spike will get rid of your precious aegis on the target they want down anyhow). Also, you don't HAVE to run infuse to make ZB a good elite; it's just another place where teh elite synergizes well. Also consider with ZB in your build, you have a very high prot(same as when running Divert or higher) and thus skills like Spirit Bond become very strong. I still don't understand the people who have to "wait for the target to drop to 50%" before using ZB. First, at 10 energy, ZB provides around 160 +divine at 13 spec, so that a 200 heal for ten energy thats self targeting. At worse, you are using a self targetting heal other. Sure it's no gift in terms of energy efficiency, but nothing is -- that's why gift is so good. Using ZB as a big heal on a target that needs it is still an OK use of the elite. Blight is saving energy when a target needs a big heal a hex and a condition removed, but if you get rid of a bad condition and get most of the heal, the use of Blight still works. Also, you can use ZB like preprotting... sort of. If a target is going to get smashed, his/her life will spike and you can proactively use ZB in anticipation of the spike. If you have infuse, you probably wouldn't bother, but it's worth mentioning. Lastly, if you use ZB at a decent rate of efficiency, as your energy depletes and your teams health gradually is worn down, ZB naturally starts to kick in, pumping you back up while the opposing team's monks may or more likely may not have the same benefit. Now, if you want to run ZB, the last problem to deal with is this: since most gift bars get a free elite slot to deal with conditions(RC), Hexes(divert), or a bit of both(Blight), where are you going to put this kind of utility in your TEAM build?

I am not saying ZB is an amazing elite, but no monk elite is perfect. Also, I think it's very strange to call a bunch of the monk elites in Nightfall trash. The other two skill sets don't provide nearly as many viable options as Nightfall. Of course, I still think Blight is the best of the bunch on a monk that slides well into almost any build since the skill performs almost any monk role in the game with one skill used in optimal conditions, but past that I would rate a lot of the nightfall elites in the "next most viable slots" with only Restore Conditions in that same group.

JR · Dec 08, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't even see how that would be fun. It's just pointless.

Might want to wash that sand out of your vagina.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You can't really have Infuse and GoH on the same bar. Infuse is pretty necessary right now.

Sure you can. If you need Infuse then you are facing spike - not pressure. You will almost always just be using one or the other - not both. It can be a little tricky, but a good Monk can manage it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I see little reason for running RC in this metagame. I haven't come up against a heavy condition build since the very beginning of the season. ZB is good against pressure anyway and your Draw Condi teammate can remove any really bad stacked conditions.

Dervish/Warrior trains with Condition pressure are fairly common, I have found. RC greatly negates their damage, is a massive efficient heal, and means your Draw bitch can do something usefull instead.

Etrik · Dec 08, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I didn't know we were allowed to swear in these forums. Tho I do agree with most/all of what Seamus/JR said, I still think ZB beats BL in TA. Not so much in RA, where with Veil+CoP+BL you can remove 3 hexes like *that* and hexes are all too common now. I love removing Migraine, Frag, Spoil Victor in one shot.. <3

Divineshadows · Dec 08, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Not so much in RA, where with Veil+CoP+BL you can remove 3 hexes like *that* and hexes are all too common now. I love removing Migraine, Frag, Spoil Victor in one shot.. <3

Or you could just run divert hexes and free up two spots on your bar...

Zuranthium · Dec 09, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Might want to wash that sand out of your vagina.

JR! You naughty boy!

*hint* - Take it upon yourself to make sure your partner's hole is not dirty. That way it will stop burning when you pee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Sure you can. If you need Infuse then you are facing spike - not pressure. You will almost always just be using one or the other - not both. It can be a little tricky, but a good Monk can manage it.

But now you're categorizing every build as pure Spike or pure Pressure. If that were true, then I could absolutely agree with using both Infuse + GoH on the same bar. However, there are balanced teams out there that can maintain constant pressure and still produce a good spike too. So now you have to choose to either (A.) use GoH to keep pressure off and risk not being able to stop the spike, or (B.) Never use GoH in order to keep your Infuse open and hope you can fend off their pressure without your most energy-efficient heal.

I see ZB/Infuse as being the ultimate "prepare for anything" build. It's 100% efficient no matter what you face. Assuming that Infuse is a "must" (and I think it is b/c Divine Boon isn't teh sex anymore), I see no other Elite that pairs better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Dervish/Warrior trains with Condition pressure are fairly common, I have found. RC greatly negates their damage, is a massive efficient heal, and means your Draw bitch can do something usefull instead.

Decipher your meta however you want to. For me, blind spam is the most annoying thing out there right now in terms of conditions. RC isn't any extra help with that. Against melee trains Shield of Absorption does a great job and against condition pressure I think the efficiency of ZB does a good enough job too.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Dec 09, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Glimmer and Light of Deliverence mesh quite well with Infuse Bars as well, and provide different kinds of utility. If you want infuse, these work as well.

Zuranthium · Dec 09, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Ewwww. Healing monks are crappy.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Dec 09, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

it doesnt take a high spec to have a 10 second Prot Spirit...

moriz · Dec 09, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

i can think of a much easier way to get the energy bonus from ZB after infusing: swap to a weapon set with lower +hp.

for example, you start with 600hp. you infuse, and end up with 300/600hp. you swap to a set with 30 less hp, so you end up with 270/570hp. 270hp is now lower than 50% of your max health, so you'll always get the energy bonus.

obviously, if you want to design a pure prot backline with an infuser, ZB is very nice for that purpose. outside of the above situation, its effectiveness is kinda limited.

JR · Dec 09, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Ewwww. Healing monks are crappy.

~Z

I applaud your logical reasoning there sir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

But now you're categorizing every build as pure Spike or pure Pressure. If that were true, then I could absolutely agree with using both Infuse + GoH on the same bar. However, there are balanced teams out there that can maintain constant pressure and still produce a good spike too. So now you have to choose to either (A.) use GoH to keep pressure off and risk not being able to stop the spike, or (B.) Never use GoH in order to keep your Infuse open and hope you can fend off their pressure without your most energy-efficient heal.

It takes a very powerfull and coordinated spike to merit an infuse, which largely means there will be very little in the way of pressure. Any other kind of pressure spike a good Monk will be able to prot through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Against melee trains Shield of Absorption does a great job and against condition pressure I think the efficiency of ZB does a good enough job too.

Avatar of Grenth says hi.

Bankai · Dec 09, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i can think of a much easier way to get the energy bonus from ZB after infusing: swap to a weapon set with lower +hp.

for example, you start with 600hp. you infuse, and end up with 300/600hp. you swap to a set with 30 less hp, so you end up with 270/570hp. 270hp is now lower than 50% of your max health, so you'll always get the energy bonus.

obviously, if you want to design a pure prot backline with an infuser, ZB is very nice for that purpose. outside of the above situation, its effectiveness is kinda limited.

Doesn't ZB trigger AFTER divine favor? DF passes 15 energy very easily.

And since the good healing elites entered play, you no longer need 3-4 skill slots dedicated to healing, you only need 2 or maybe 3, enabling you to take much more support. Yeah, Healing monks no longer suck as bad as they used to.

Zuranthium · Dec 09, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I applaud your logical reasoning there sir.

Oh come on. You yourself have stated the same thing. It's widely regarded that Healing is a much weaker attribute line than Protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Avatar of Grenth says hi.

So if you are playing against a condition pressure build that contains a Warrior + Grenth train and you have no anti-melee skills to combat the Dervish, RC can shine. How versatile. Even in this scenario a ZB monk would probably still be sufficient. A 212 point heal that often comes for free is nothing to *roll eyes* at.

Also...how does RC work better than ZB if the train is on you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It takes a very powerful and coordinated spike to merit an infuse, which largely means there will be very little in the way of pressure. Any other kind of pressure spike a good Monk will be able to prot through.

Well I disagree entirely. 2 W/A and 2 Mesmers can spike someone down in an instant and still put very large amounts of pressure on the Monks when not coordinating the spike.

But, like, if RC is hitting your G-spot, don't stop using it. Always nice to have a tool you are familiar with that can bring you to a great climax.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Dec 09, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i can think of a much easier way to get the energy bonus from ZB after infusing: swap to a weapon set with lower +hp.

for example, you start with 600hp. you infuse, and end up with 300/600hp. you swap to a set with 30 less hp, so you end up with 270/570hp. 270hp is now lower than 50% of your max health, so you'll always get the energy bonus.

obviously, if you want to design a pure prot backline with an infuser, ZB is very nice for that purpose. outside of the above situation, its effectiveness is kinda limited.

Nice to know someone read my big chunky post about infusing with ZB... makes me feel special.

Ok, to the other poster below the first guy: no. ZB triggers before divine favor. Again, read my post I did quite alot of experimenting with the skill.

Lastly, after playing the skill some more in gvgs, I will say, for me, the only way to play ZB well is with the GoLE, and in my case, I bring gift as well because it's just too good to lose(you can't use Heal Other like Gift and you can't use ZB that way either). Basically this build prevents better than any other build I've used, the "beating your monks out of energy" approach to gvgs. Anything else on ZB is really a suboptimal use of the skill to me after becoming accustomed to huge energy swings.

To the guy above me... monking for R-spike can make one pretty feisty, eh? Really, though, most War and Mes combos these days are spikes in balanced build's makeup. The wars arent built to pressure, they are built to spike. They dont have eviscerate, dragon slash, or anything comparable; usually dismembers and energy skills so they can spike on demand. Thus, the pressure is way less than that of a "true" old school balanced.

Zuranthium · Dec 09, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Mesmers using shutdown on the monks when combined with the raw damage of dual Warriors attacking (erm, and Dismember is just as much pressure as Eviscerate...a little less damage but Deep Wound more often) + whatever other character that is being run in the build is enough of a constant threat.

It's not about a specific example on paper, though. I think ZB/Infuse is a very flexible option for a monk and I like it a lot.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Dec 09, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mesmers using shutdown on the monks when combined with the raw damage of dual Warriors attacking (erm, and Dismember is just as much pressure as Eviscerate...a little less damage but Deep Wound more often) + whatever other character that is being run in the build is enough of a constant threat.

It's not about a specific example on paper, though. I think ZB/Infuse is a very flexible option for a monk and I like it a lot.

~Z

Umm... seeing as how dismember has no damage bonus, it actually is quite a bit less damage on one hit. But also, you have to remember that the build mentality is SPIKE! Therefore, the characters save energy for the spike and that's when teh mesmers start shutting down. If they don't, they might not have enough energy for the spiritual, surge, shatter that will get them the kill.

But yeah, I think ZB works well on an infuse bar.