Curse

dag_nefzen · Nov 16, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

What do you think will be run in the Winterfest play-offs, bearing in mind that only Nightfall and Core skills can be used?

That rules out both Blessed Light and Restore Condition. I'm guessing maybe a Divert/ZB backline will be common?

Thom · Nov 16, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

Saying that RC or Divert is a wasted elite versus a build that doesn't have condition stack or hex overload is the wrong mentality. Realistically, I suppose you could perhaps run an elite with no utility such as ZB or Glimmer to be efficient in builds that don't require a specialized elite, but most of the time, a RC or Divert bar is balanced enough so that it will do the job versus a balanced build without any severe lack of utility. You're going to have a condi removal, hex removal, anti-spike skill, etc, no matter what your elite is. The elite, then, will excel in situations where that specific utility is needed the most. If you are running a bar with RC or Divert, then not using your elite once in the entire game will not lose you the game against a balanced team, whereas when you are running an elite that lacks utility (ZB, etc), it may very well cause you to lose to an overload team. That's why I think very specific monk elites are generally the most secure when the rest of your bar is balanced. You're not losing anything in most situations, yet gaining a complete counter in few situations.

Brilliant! People don't run RC or Divert builds, they run a GoH/Prot build with a RC, B-light or Divert elite. I'm overstating a point Tommy made much better than I, but I feel this is critical to understanding the monking meta-game.

Seamus Finn · Nov 16, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dag_nefzen

What do you think will be run in the Winterfest play-offs, bearing in mind that only Nightfall and Core skills can be used?

That rules out both Blessed Light and Restore Condition. I'm guessing maybe a Divert/ZB backline will be common?

It's still a ways away to tell for sure, but I would think that there won't be too many cookie cutter monks. I would think divert might be the closest to filling that role, but I would expect the monks to be fully integrated into teh build, I.E. A healing light monk build for a taint build, or something like PnH had for their trapper build. More specialized to the build is my guess since there hasn't been a single monk build made form the new nightfall stuff that's as univerally solid as the Blight.

shardfenix · Nov 16, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

I would like to point out that avatar of lyssa does not add damage.

Byron · Nov 16, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dag_nefzen

What do you think will be run in the Winterfest play-offs, bearing in mind that only Nightfall and Core skills can be used?

That rules out both Blessed Light and Restore Condition. I'm guessing maybe a Divert/ZB backline will be common?

That's a really good question, since Factions did so much for monks. What are they going to do without GoH? I don't see divert builds being too feasible without GoH (dwayna's kiss is a streeeetch, but a possible replacement IMO). They could run the risk of boon-protting, but with the nerf of the inspiration line, boons have taken yet another big hit.

I would personally try the ZB/purge signet Mo/W. It's mildly balanced and can still almost accomplish what a factions monk does.

Reversal of Fortune
Zealous benediction {e}
Mend condition
Mending touch
Protective spirit
Signet of devotion
Purge signet
Shield bash

Perhaps, swap out the two mends for mend ailment and holy veil. I like the healing power of this build (and you need no spec into healing), but the utility is meh. Run with a boon, it would still require hex and condition removal support from the midliners (draw, inspired hex, etc).

**EDIT: I'm not sure- is shield bash a factions skill?

Zuranthium · Nov 16, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

I would like to point out that avatar of lyssa does not add damage.

Were they actually activating a skill when you tested it?

Drewfense · Nov 16, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

They could run the risk of boon-protting, but with the nerf of the inspiration line, boons have taken yet another big hit.

Unless there is a nerf, boon prots will be the most successful monks run during the playoffs. There is no need for inspiration (tbh a boon prot could go mo/a or mo/w). The amount of energy gained from paragons is so imbalanced that it doesn't matter.

Byron · Nov 16, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

The amount of energy gained from paragons is so imbalanced that it doesn't matter.

A very good point - I'll concede that boons will be the thing most run, then.

JR · Nov 16, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Unless there is a nerf, boon prots will be the most successful monks run during the playoffs. There is no need for inspiration (tbh a boon prot could go mo/a or mo/w). The amount of energy gained from paragons is so imbalanced that it doesn't matter.

Whilst I agree Boon Prots will make a comeback, I don't think that motivation Paragons alone will be able to make them as powerfull as you imply. There are still weaknesses in Boon Prots that haven't gone away, and split situations and any Paragon hate you come accross is also going to cripple your monks.

Seamus Finn · Nov 16, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

That is not even to mention that Paragons energy fountain abilities probably will not be so potent by the time playoffs come around. I forgot about Gift being gone as well. That's a gg there. Well, I am prepared to be hated on, but the most versatile build I have come up with from Nightfall is a glimmer of light build seeing as how gift really rounds out the prot line. But hey, at least we might see stuff that's new in the playoffs.

On a side note with the tourney, will assassins and rits only get the nightfall skills? If so, that's pretty lame. Factions is basically their "Core" chapter, so unless anet makes a core set out of those skills or something I will call foul. No need to give the minority classes even more of a push to the margins of GW society.

Drewfense · Nov 16, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Whilst I agree Boon Prots will make a comeback, I don't think that motivation Paragons alone will be able to make them as powerfull as you imply. There are still weaknesses in Boon Prots that haven't gone away, and split situations and any Paragon hate you come accross is also going to cripple your monks.

Good point, a team that creates such a reliance will have to depend very strongly on small splits. What would be interesting is with all the new maps (which I would guess would be emphasized on the first day....second is home team choice I think), could there be a large amount of 4/4 and other various split builds?

I dunno, looking at the skills I think it is really hard to put togethor a solid monk backline with reasonable support. Losing gift hurts big time so a larger investment in healing and healing spells will be necessary. Glimmer will be used, but I would sooner use Light of Deliverance. Ether Prism heal party spam just isn't the same as EProd or even Second Wind so there wont be the same heal party support we are used to. On the same token, I think el/mo runners will be weaker in indirect ways (having to have 12 in ES weakens the variability of the build). I think a lot of defensive rolls that we are used to relegating to eles will be put on put fully on paragons (sticking with the case of heal party...paras with song of restoration and the various non elite versions).

Getting back on track, I think monks and traditional monk support will be weak. I haven't really looked at the other classes (I know hammer is QQ) so they might be in the same boat. Regardless of the chapter 1 classes, the paragon and dervish will still be capable of applying tremendous pressure. I think heavy offense with as much degen as possible, who can topple the other teams weak monks first will win out.

Byron · Nov 18, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

I think heavy offense with as much degen as possible, who can topple the other teams weak monks first will win out.

Isn't that the definition of PvP anymore?

Thomas.knbk · Nov 18, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Sever Artery
Gash
Final Thrust
Frenzy
Sprint
Healing Signet
Bull's Charge/Cripplling Slash
Res Sig

Looks like (sword) warriors aren't harmed too much by the core/NF only restrictions. Maybe an axe warrior like this for a sweet adrenospike

Executioner's strike
Decapitate
Critical Shop
Burst of Agression
Sprint
Healing Signet
Bull's Strike
Res Sig

Monks are fairly screwed though

Drewfense · Nov 18, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Just looking at some of the big hits per class because I am bored. Not bothing with Assassins/Ritualists, they are screwed likely.

Warriors lose a lot. Hammer is dead, very dead. A lot of common builds are hurt. Rush is gone, frenzy less. Strongest is axe.

Warrior - Eviscerate, Backbreaker, Crushing (wtf btw), Eathshaker, Fierce Blow, IWAY!, Bulls Charge, Prot Strike, Rush, DSlash, Fear Me, TTL, Shove

Ranger doesn't have a lot of hits, but the hits are big. No tranq means no heavy physical builds (Ex. iQ in last playoffs). No spirit spammers really without Oath Shot and Dust Trap. No crip shot...but nightfall skills can replace that.

Ranger - EoE!, Oath Shot, Crip Shot, Dust Trap, Tranq

/cry. Monks got hit hard. BLight is gone, but the harder loss is GoH, removing the current style of prot monk that we are all used to. Losing Spirit Bond also hurts. Healing took a hit as well, I view HLight and HWhisper as the best elite and nonelite healing spells so it is sad to see them go. Condition removal will be very different without Extinguish, RC, and mend condition...wow. No Air smiters (as if there were any) and no Res Chant (or GoS).

Monk - BLight, CoP, Gift of Health, Dwayna's Kiss, Heal Other, Healing Light, Healing Whisper, Res Chant, Air of Enchant, Extinguish, Mend Condi, RC, Spirit Bond

BSpike takes a hard hit, but who cares. OoB is gone, but I think there are some legitimate replacements in Nightfall (for hex necros that is). No Victor, very good, sick of that imba stuff. Some nice curses are gone.

Necro - Blood Rit, Dark Fury, Mark Subversion, OoB, Spoil Victor, Malaise, Price of Failure/Reckless, Shadow of Fear, Soul Barbs, SS, Wither, GoC

Mesmers lose Blackout, PLeak, and Shame (the monk in me celebrates). Shatter Delusions hurts caster spikes...wouldn't matter though since there isn't phantom pain. No Migraine...doesn't matter either, no Spirit of Failure...wow hex builds got owned.

Mesmer - Blackout, Panic, Power Leak, Shame, Shatter Delusions, Power Return, Migraine, Phantom Pain, Channeling, iHex, Spirit of Failue

No Mind Shock eles. No shock either for warriors, but they can use Gale. No Meteor Shower or GoS to use it. Losing Rodgorts means the only fire ele is Searing Heat...or one with an elite flare... The biggest thing is no EProd/Second Wind.

Ele - Glimmering mark ( <3 ), Mind Shock, Shock, Ward Stability, Ether Prodigy, Second Wind, Meteor Shower, Rodgorts, Armor of Mist, Vapor Blade, GoS/GoEssence

Greedy Gus · Nov 19, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Mesmers lost images of remorse as well, the skill that nearly singlehandedly revitalized hex degen builds back into the metagame.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 19, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Just looking at some of the big hits per class because I am bored. Not bothing with Assassins/Ritualists, they are screwed likely.

Warriors lose a lot. Hammer is dead, very dead. A lot of common builds are hurt. Rush is gone, frenzy less. Strongest is axe.

Warrior - Eviscerate, Backbreaker, Crushing (wtf btw), Eathshaker, Fierce Blow, IWAY!, Bulls Charge, Prot Strike, Rush, DSlash, Fear Me, TTL, Shove

Ranger doesn't have a lot of hits, but the hits are big. No tranq means no heavy physical builds (Ex. iQ in last playoffs). No spirit spammers really without Oath Shot and Dust Trap. No crip shot...but nightfall skills can replace that.

Ranger - EoE!, Oath Shot, Crip Shot, Dust Trap, Tranq

/cry. Monks got hit hard. BLight is gone, but the harder loss is GoH, removing the current style of prot monk that we are all used to. Losing Spirit Bond also hurts. Healing took a hit as well, I view HLight and HWhisper as the best elite and nonelite healing spells so it is sad to see them go. Condition removal will be very different without Extinguish, RC, and mend condition...wow. No Air smiters (as if there were any) and no Res Chant (or GoS).

Monk - BLight, CoP, Gift of Health, Dwayna's Kiss, Heal Other, Healing Light, Healing Whisper, Res Chant, Air of Enchant, Extinguish, Mend Condi, RC, Spirit Bond

BSpike takes a hard hit, but who cares. OoB is gone, but I think there are some legitimate replacements in Nightfall (for hex necros that is). No Victor, very good, sick of that imba stuff. Some nice curses are gone.

Necro - Blood Rit, Dark Fury, Mark Subversion, OoB, Spoil Victor, Malaise, Price of Failure/Reckless, Shadow of Fear, Soul Barbs, SS, Wither, GoC

Mesmers lose Blackout, PLeak, and Shame (the monk in me celebrates). Shatter Delusions hurts caster spikes...wouldn't matter though since there isn't phantom pain. No Migraine...doesn't matter either, no Spirit of Failure...wow hex builds got owned.

Mesmer - Blackout, Panic, Power Leak, Shame, Shatter Delusions, Power Return, Migraine, Phantom Pain, Channeling, iHex, Spirit of Failue

No Mind Shock eles. No shock either for warriors, but they can use Gale. No Meteor Shower or GoS to use it. Losing Rodgorts means the only fire ele is Searing Heat...or one with an elite flare... The biggest thing is no EProd/Second Wind.

Ele - Glimmering mark ( <3 ), Mind Shock, Shock, Ward Stability, Ether Prodigy, Second Wind, Meteor Shower, Rodgorts, Armor of Mist, Vapor Blade, GoS/GoEssence

You know, when I first saw the list of what was playable, I was like "oh man eles got pwned" but searing flames, glowing gaze, light of deliverence, storm djinn's haste, and freezing gust make up for some of what was lost. i doubt we'll see flash on the runner, but wouldn't be surprised to see blinding surge at the stand.

Warriors still have YAA. Common builds are dead, but dervishes will probably cover for them.

HA ha to hexes getting pwned.

Byron · Nov 19, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Warrior -...Crushing (wtf btw)

No thumpers!!!!!!111

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 19, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

No thumpers!!!!!!111

No reason not to run other R/W builds though. Critical Chop is pretty hot.

Bankai · Nov 19, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I disagree with Axe warriors being strongest. Sword warriors have lost absolutely nothing really. Bull's charge or Crippling slash anyone?

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 19, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Whether you want to run sword or axe is going to depend a lot on how much energy you have on your bar. Dismember+Executioners+Critical has some pretty big advantages over Sever+Gash+Final, but 5 energy every 10 seconds is non-trivial on a warrior bar.

And incidentally, Bull's Charge isn't core.