Curse

JR · Nov 12, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

Whats your opinion on Divert, JR? Do you think Monk primaries should carry it?

It's risky, as has been said before. It's like Restore in a way:

It is godly against Hex builds, like RC is godly against Condition builds. It is OK vs average builds that may have scattered Hexes, like RC is OK vs standard builds with the usual conditions. Against builds with no Hexes it sucks, obviously, like RC against builds with no Conditions.

It really is meta-dependant, and right now I think you can justify taking it. There isn't really much else I think is worth taking in that elite slot. Blessed Light is solid and flexible, but not particularly amazing. I think a Divert/Restore backline is very strong.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 12, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Divert is basically Contemptation of Purity that you can cast on someone else and doesn't make you lose enchants. though that sounds good it is IMO still too risky to dedicate your elite to hex removal. Maybe on an Expel dom instead of Expel, but on a monk primary, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It really is meta-dependant, and right now I think you can justify taking it. There isn't really much else I think is worth taking in that elite slot. Blessed Light is solid and flexible, but not particularly amazing. I think a Divert/Restore backline is very strong.

What about a no-condition/no-hex build that splits? then you're screwed aren't you?

JR · Nov 12, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Divert is basically Contemptation of Purity that you can cast on someone else and doesn't make you lose enchants. though that sounds good it is IMO still too risky to dedicate your elite to hex removal. Maybe on an Expel dom instead of Expel, but on a monk primary, no.

The standard Monk bar at the moment isn't built around your Elite though, you can afford to change that up. Your key skills are Reversal, PSpirit/SBond, and Gift of Health.

Take [dT] for example - running a Mo/P with Incoming; you really can afford to take more narrow skills in your Elite slot as the rest of your bar covers all of the more general bases.

Dragannia · Nov 12, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

I'd have to agree with Thomas. RC is, I guess, okay sometimes because there are frequently Cripshots and Tainted Necros even in a condition-light meta. I dislike running the risk that a Monk will have a useless Elite. There are lots of gankers and splitters running around now, anyway.

I'd still stick with Expel on a Mesmer, however. No more sups means that getting to that 4 Prot drains your attribute spread a lot more if you want to keep Illusion at 10 for a 4 second Distortion. But that's just me. I might switch to Divert in the future, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Take [dT] for example - running a Mo/P with Incoming; you really can afford to take more narrow skills in your Elite slot as the rest of your bar covers all of the more general bases.

Incoming, however, is good in a much more general sense; there are lots more Warrior-adren spikers out there than hex builds.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 12, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The standard Monk bar at the moment isn't built around your Elite though, you can afford to change that up. Your key skills are Reversal, PSpirit/SBond, and Gift of Health.

Take [dT] for example - running a Mo/P with Incoming; you really can afford to take more narrow skills in your Elite slot as the rest of your bar covers all of the more general bases.

You really think so? Even when that means you will have matches where you will not use your elite? You won't have that with Blight, not even with glimmer? in my experience builds tend to bring either a lot of hexes, or none at all (which makes sense, because 2 or 3 hexes in a build will just be removed) unlike conditions, of which you will find some in practically any build. So you will hardly ever be in a situation where you don't use RC the entire match, but you will find yourself in a no-divert match quite often. That is why I question if it's worth the elite slot

JR · Nov 12, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

You really think so? Even when that means you will have matches where you will not use your elite? You won't have that with Blight, not even with glimmer? in my experience builds tend to bring either a lot of hexes, or none at all (which makes sense, because 2 or 3 hexes in a build will just be removed) unlike conditions, of which you will find some in practically any build. So you will hardly ever be in a situation where you don't use RC the entire match, but you will find yourself in a no-divert match quite often. That is why I question if it's worth the elite slot

Shame, Diversion, Water snares... all very common in most builds around at the moment. Same for RC - Cripshots, YAA Warriors, Dervishes, general Deep Wounds etc.

B-Light is the alternative, but what is B-Light really? An inefficient heal and a spot hex/condition removal. If you can get it two of those jobs per hit then it is pulling it's weight, but otherwise it's not terribly usefull. Against builds with very sparse conditions or Hexes it is clearly superior to RC or Divert, but it is considerably worse against builds that are heavy on those two things. You really can't afford to spam a 10 energy spell to remove 1 hex at a time, but you can afford it if it is removing 3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

I'd still stick with Expel on a Mesmer, however. No more sups means that getting to that 4 Prot drains your attribute spread a lot more if you want to keep Illusion at 10 for a 4 second Distortion. But that's just me. I might switch to Divert in the future, though.

Holy cow batman, you are wasting 48 attribute points to get a 4 second Distortion on a Character that already wastes his elite on Expell? Your Domination Mesmer build doesn't sound dreadfully intimidating to me.

JR · Nov 12, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Less flaming and general idiocy please.

rii · Nov 12, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

As far as I've seen there have mainly been spot hexes and spot conditions.... most builds I've run into have been 2 war spikers/2mes dom/paragon/2monks/emo (usually water). Thats a few spot hexes like diversion and deep freeze and a few conditions like deep wound, bleeding, and sometimes poison. To me, blight is way better against that set-up that divert/RC, which as stated is for v extremes (or is at least more suited to it).

Of course, you will be weaker against the extreme teams with blight, but frankly I don't see them that often. melandrus/poison I've seen (played) once since NF came out, and heavy heavy hexes I've come across a few times, but most of the hexes were basic degens. Maybe it's just the luck of the draw but the only extremist (pressure) build I've come across (a lot since NF) is searing flames/rao thumpers, neither of which get beaten much more easily by RC/divert than blight.

As has been mentioned divert *can* end up being a pure waste. As for RC, it's mainly personal preference (and the fact I haven't bothered to purchase NF yet - and therefore am missing some skill combos) but I feel it can distort the build a bit... being as it is target other.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 12, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Less flaming and general idiocy please.

Sorry, I'll cut the crap.

I can also see Signet of Removal fit in on a few /mo's, if you're running tainted...
Also...am I missing something on Tease, or is Mantra of Recovery+diversion just more annoying?

Drewfense · Nov 12, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

As far as I've seen there have mainly been spot hexes and spot conditions.... most builds I've run into have been 2 war spikers/2mes dom/paragon/2monks/emo (usually water). Thats a few spot hexes like diversion and deep freeze and a few conditions like deep wound, bleeding, and sometimes poison. To me, blight is way better against that set-up that divert/RC, which as stated is for v extremes (or is at least more suited to it).

Of course, you will be weaker against the extreme teams with blight, but frankly I don't see them that often. melandrus/poison I've seen (played) once since NF came out, and heavy heavy hexes I've come across a few times, but most of the hexes were basic degens. Maybe it's just the luck of the draw but the only extremist (pressure) build I've come across (a lot since NF) is searing flames/rao thumpers, neither of which get beaten much more easily by RC/divert than blight.

The euro meta seems to have a lot of W/E + W/A spike with 2 Dom, Paragon. I think I saw 4 guilds in the top 50 running this same build yesterday. This goes along with why dT had an Incoming monk (PnH had two...and still got spiked out by dT...they were very uncoordinated). American servers on the otherhand are full of either heavy pressure thumpers/searing where divert is useless (and RC as well imo; mend condi = RC) or heavy hex and even mixed hex and conditions where divert is godly.

I don't really worry about weakness of divert on a split. I rarely see a true 4/4 nowadays and if you do, just split the divert with an ele/mo flagrunner with heal breeze. Combined with SoA, a divert monk has a good amount of self survivability still versus pressure.

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 12, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Signet of removal could work on a sword war i guess... Like Empathetic Removal except doesnt remove on self and its free. Could probably put in some sort of heal only build instead with it but its not that practical.

EDIT - If u can keep SoA and prot spirit up u wont take much dmg and wont have to worry about running divert in a split since soa comes in after prot spirit.

Drewfense · Nov 12, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I didn't know that about SoA and PS. Is it stacking dependant (i.e. if you put SoA on first it behaves differently than if you put PS on first).

Buildwise, my guess is you would want to run spirit bond on a divert though. Spirit Bond increases a monks soloability and compensates for the weak healing power. Besides, a divert is going to have 12+ prot stat wise.

Zuranthium · Nov 12, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

If someone is below 50% then chances are they are already being spiked.

Yes...so you cast ZB and they get a huge heal for free. It's not like you should wait until they are below 50% to cast the spell. They will already have gone beyond the threshold by the time the spell lands if getting spike and so you just click it as soon as you see the health bar dropping quickly. I mean, once again, what else could a monk cast that saves the target from a spike better? I don't buy the argument of overhealing making ZB unreliable. Even if both monks are casting on the same teammate, a single heal from the other Monk is NOT going to bring the teammate above 50%, unless the spike sucked that much.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 12, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yes...so you cast ZB and they get a huge heal for free. It's not like you should wait until they are below 50% to cast the spell. They will already have gone beyond the threshold by the time the spell lands if getting spike and so you just click it as soon as you see the health bar dropping quickly. I mean, once again, what else could a monk cast that saves the target from a spike better? I don't buy the argument of overhealing making ZB unreliable. Even if both monks are casting on the same teammate, a single heal from the other Monk is NOT going to bring the teammate above 50%, unless the spike sucked that much.

Of course, a good spike can take about 1/2 a sec to spike from 100% to 0. So basically if you're facing a good spike you try to save it with ZB and just end up losing 10 energy. There's a reason why noone saves spikes with WoH, and it's the exact same problem with ZB.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 12, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yes...so you cast ZB and they get a huge heal for free. It's not like you should wait until they are below 50% to cast the spell. They will already have gone beyond the threshold by the time the spell lands if getting spike and so you just click it as soon as you see the health bar dropping quickly. I mean, once again, what else could a monk cast that saves the target from a spike better? I don't buy the argument of overhealing making ZB unreliable. Even if both monks are casting on the same teammate, a single heal from the other Monk is NOT going to bring the teammate above 50%, unless the spike sucked that much.

The point is that when someone is being spiked you don't have time for a 3/4 cast. by the time you finish casting they're more likely than not already dead.
Edit for spelling................

Patrograd · Nov 12, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

so you just click it as soon as you see the health bar dropping quickly. I mean, once again, what else could a monk cast that saves the target from a spike better? .

Once the health bar starts to fall it is usually too late for anything other than a really quick fix like ROF or infuse.

Ideally you want to be both preprotting and, when you see the spike coming (enemy casters using their spike skills, warriors converging onto a target, that kind of thing) starting to heal before it lands by using a combination like ROF->GoH.

Monks Red bar watching kills teams imo. Watch enemy damage dealers instead, especially warriors

skillsbas8 · Nov 12, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Lately I've been running into a LOT of heavy hex teams. Divert would be more than potent in most cases. And again, monk builds don't revolve around their elite, their elite just complements the rest of their setup well. Since divert is in prot, and prot provides (in my opinion) by far the most versatile monk builds, I think divert is a fine skill.

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 12, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

I didn't know that about SoA and PS. Is it stacking dependant (i.e. if you put SoA on first it behaves differently than if you put PS on first).

Buildwise, my guess is you would want to run spirit bond on a divert though. Spirit Bond increases a monks soloability and compensates for the weak healing power. Besides, a divert is going to have 12+ prot stat wise.

I dont know if it matters which order. All i know is i usually put prot spirit then soa in those cases. It seems like a better idea anyway.

Zuranthium · Nov 12, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Ideally you want to be both preprotting and, when you see the spike coming (enemy casters using their spike skills, warriors converging onto a target, that kind of thing) starting to heal before it lands by using a combination like ROF->GoH.

If your target is getting spiked, that GoH is going to land on them when they are under 50%. Why not have used ZB instead? It's a bigger heal for 0 energy. You can even use RoF+GoH as general heals (should use) and save ZB for if they are still under 50%, which is VERY common if it was a continued spike or if they disabled your other monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Monks Red bar watching kills teams imo. Watch enemy damage dealers instead, especially warriors

And that's somehow impossible to do when playing ZB? If you cast the spell as soon as you see the warriors unloading adren, you'll get the energy bonus almost every time. At least I do?

Zuranthium · Nov 12, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

The point is that when someone is being spiked you don't have time for a 3/4 cast. by the time you finish casting they're more likely than not already dead.
Edit for spelling................

Then PLEASE let me know how you can stop spikes and keep your team alive as a Blessed Light monk! I'd be very interested in hearing.

A clean spike is a clean spike. Nothing can save it. Infuse or a 1/4 sec cast spell on a Boon monk can save a "clean" spike that had maybe 1 of the spikers slightly off in their timing.

Of course, nobody is running a clean spike anyway. It's all adrenaline unloading with maybe caster backup. Even beyond the fact that you can cast ZB in anticipation of a spike and have it give you the energy back, you absolutely can not tell me you've never cast GoH or Blessed Light on someone who was already under 50%. That would be a very good cause for me to go *roll eyes*.