Curse

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

I don't think I'd ever run Glimmer of Light for GvG, but it's excellent in HA because of how well it synergizes with Channeling.

I love Zealous Benediction because even if you only get the energy bonus half the time, that still basically makes it a self-targetable WoH which always heals for the max bonus and is in a stronger spell line.

JR · Nov 02, 2006, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't think I'd ever run Glimmer of Light for GvG, but it's excellent in HA because of how well it synergizes with Channeling.

I love Zealous Benediction because even if you only get the energy bonus half the time, that still basically makes it a self-targetable WoH which always heals for the max bonus and is in a stronger spell line.

But has the efficiency of a Heal Other, which is fairly terrible, when you could be using Gift of Health which is extremely efficient. With a strong Monk backline is is very difficult to get that bonus, infact I would say most of the time you wont. The other monk will heal the target before you get there, or they will die due to the slow-ish cast of ZB.

Also the energy clause is overrated. If you are low on energy it is going to cost you 10 to use it regardless of whether you get 10 back or not. If the clause was "If target ally is under 50% health then this cast is free" then it would be a whole lot more attractive.

Self heals are more important in GvG should you be in a situation where you need to split your monks, but not to the point where you want to burn your elite slot on it.

Too conditional, far to inefficient when that condition is not met.

Patrograd · Nov 02, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

On the subject of the allegedly "broken" rampage as one

it occurs to me after a little testing in GvG that this character is *extremely* fragile energy wise, and given even a little Edenial love he is going to have massively reduced efficiency. Also, it seems as if the pets die just as easily as they ever did, easier arguably as given the tight energy you cant afford to use comfort as a regular self heal

It is possibly the case that you need to run a few of these to get around these issues (we only ran one just to see how it looked), as there is no doubt that the damage is massive, I just worry about the fragility of the energy.

unmatchedfury · Nov 02, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Sadly enough, even though ritulists are my favorite class i have to agree with all those 1/5. ritulists didn't need more conditional e-manegment. we had plenty we didnt use already, and nightfall alone can't make rits.

Spirits strength is really fun to play in RA nothign else. XInreas weapon has the problem of not stoppping hte spike, but delaying hte next one marginally.Not worht an elite slot imo.

anyways rits don't get a whole lot of love, as a class they remain disfunctioanl in many ways.

TimTimTimma · Nov 02, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't think I'd ever run Glimmer of Light for GvG, but it's excellent in HA because of how well it synergizes with Channeling.

I love Zealous Benediction because even if you only get the energy bonus half the time, that still basically makes it a self-targetable WoH which always heals for the max bonus and is in a stronger spell line.

Another thing I would like to add about the whole "it heals for crap" bit people keep complaining about. When you are monking, the point of healing isn't neccesarily to keep your parties bar at full. It is to keep them at a respectable level. And when you have something like Zealots Benediction/Heal Other and other "big" heals your spending 10 energy for a big heal, that you are only going to get the "full" benefit of if you let your bars drag alittle bit lower than 60% (or in ZB's case below 50%) usually, and that is very dangerous/risky monking. With Glimmer you can let bars go to about 75% and use Glimmer and it might just barely top the bar off or atleast come very close because it is mid-sized heal and gaining the full benefit from it is relatively easy when compared to trying to gain the full benefit from Heal Other/Zealot Benediction.

P.S. JR, I am curious what signet you use on your bar with Glimmer (if any) I am currently running Signet of Rejuvenation.

JR · Nov 02, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTimTimma

P.S. JR, I am curious what signet you use on your bar with Glimmer (if any) I am currently running Signet of Rejuvenation.

Originally I ran both Signet of Devotion and Signet of Rejuvination. These days I run more of a hybrid bar with Spirit Bond and some other varying prots, so my Divine isn't really high enough to justify Devotion with the Prot spec. I have been toying with Rejuvination but I'm not sure how much I like it yet. The one secnd cast is great, but it can be hard to consistantly tigger the bonus which is what makes it worth the spot.

My common bar at the moment is this:

Healing Prayers: 14 (12+2)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Divine Favor: 11 (10+1)

Glimmer Of Light
Infuse Health
Spirit Bond
Dwayna's Kiss (optional)
Signet of Rejuvination
Dismiss Condition
Remove Hex
Purge Signet (optional)

Other skills that sometimes go in those optional spots:
(with some attribute shifting)

Dark Escape
Hex Breaker
Distortion

Bankai · Nov 02, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

So far I think ZB runs good on a monk that doesn't use a lot of energy. I've been running it in pve on an anti-spike prot. I don't need a lot of energy so I don't have a lot of problem activating it. However, in higher pvp and on builds you need more energy, I don't think I'd like it very much.

Edit: posted half a day too late.

TimTimTimma · Nov 02, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Originally I ran both Signet of Devotion and Signet of Rejuvination. These days I run more of a hybrid bar with Spirit Bond and some other varying prots, so my Divine isn't really high enough to justify Devotion with the Prot spec. I have been toying with Rejuvination but I'm not sure how much I like it yet. The one secnd cast is great, but it can be hard to consistantly tigger the bonus which is what makes it worth the spot.

My common bar at the moment is this:

Healing Prayers: 14 (12+2)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Divine Favor: 11 (10+1)

Glimmer Of Light
Infuse Health
Spirit Bond
Dwayna's Kiss (optional)
Signet of Rejuvination
Dismiss Condition
Remove Hex
Purge Signet (optional)

Other skills that sometimes go in those optional spots:
(with some attribute shifting)

Dark Escape
Hex Breaker
Distortion

Very Interesting, I have been looking at purge lately, but haven't decided if it would fit on the bar I am working with atm:

14 healing (11+2+1)
11 Divine (10+1)
10 prot (9+1)
4 Shadow

Can't be to sure about the atts but it is something along those lines

Return /Dark Escape
Glimmer of Light
Signet of Rejuvenation
Shield of Absorbition /Guardian
Infuse Health
Prot Spirit /Spirit Bond
Holy Veil (looking for something better, this might be where I try purge signet)
Dismiss Condition

I find it easiest to get the bonus on Signet of Rejuvenation by casting it primarily on Melee characters. As casting on an "attacking" ally, is much easier than to catch someone casting.

I <3 Shield of Absorbition

Bugeater · Nov 02, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Thanks JR- and TimTim. I can see how Glimmer, while statistically not all that special can be quite versatile - which is pretty much the name of the game. Tim's point on healing earlier with less overhealing is also well taken. I'll definately play around with it more.

TimTimTimma · Nov 02, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Also, Glimmer of Light owns Dazed. I was running around in RA with a ranger that had conc shot, and broadhead arrow, he had a pet also to help catch spells. A sword warrior was on me also so thats 3 people attacking a dazed target. You figure they wont get a single spell off, right?

Not with Glimmer of Light! I was still able to run/cast and not get interupted by maybe once or twice. While the pressure from degen throughout the party (and a sword warrior chasing me) was abit of pressure while being dazed, Glimmer of Light did a great job and just added another reason why, IMO , it is such a good skill to use.

GLighter + Blighter = very good monk backline IMO

Drewfense · Nov 02, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I was going to make a post about it, but between these two posts pretty much the main part was covered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

As for glimmer...I might just start a thread for this to logically prove my point. Glimmer isn't good at anything, but it doesn't suck at anything. There are non-elite skills better than it for every possible function so saying it is better than any single skill is incorrect. Saying it is adaptable and can function in almost any situation to a moderate degree (and thus warrenting its elite status) is correct. This isn't just theoretical musings, if you make a Glimmer build, its versatility should be considered and the build should be designed to abuse it, not fit it as a new RoF for instance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Glimmer is good for one reason. It is a jack of all trades, but master of none. This is why when comparing it to other skills that perform ASPECTS of the job Glimmer fills you are not really looking at the big picture.

So in the past where a heal monk would have to have a far less efficient spammable (Orison/Kiss), be limited to infuse for spike saves, and have to take a weak self heal like Orison or a slightly better but inflexibile one like Healing Touch... You now can just take Glimmer. This gives you more room on your bar to take energy management or utility skills, you have less of a problem with interrupts or long casts whilst trying to kite, you are stronger and more flexible.

The way Guild Wars balances heal monks is to eliminate self targeting. In my opinion, this is one (of many) of the reasons boon prots were so incredibly successful. They had significant healing power through boon and could self target through prot. Consequently, to make a good heal bar (say a Word bar), you are forced to bring a ton of heal spells. I know when I have run a pure Word in GvG, you need Infuse for spike, Word for healing, Whisper to pick up while word is recharging, Heal Touch just so you can heal yourself, throw in a RoF/PS just to give yourself a little defense. Because of the lack of self targeting, you have to put in a stance and quite rapidly you find yourself with scarce space to fit hex/condition removal and energy management. The monk bar becomes very one dimensional in order to protect yourself.

What makes Glimmer good is the spammability and self targeting capability. Now you are able to easily trade as many as three skills for one slot, freeing your bar to bring Prot skills, Stances, Purge Sig, et cetera. The trade off? Less raw healing power. You are reduced to less heal spells (diversion/sig humil = QQ). If you look at glimmer as just a replacement for one skill, then your wasting the benefit of glimmer. Glimmer is not good because it is a good heal, but because it frees up your bar to bring other skills. People who look at Glimmer as a replacement for RoF will always think it is crap. People who look at the skill for the reason explained above will love it. A similar arguement can be made about Healing Light. The ability to have a decent spammable heal that can self target makes it an elite. Add to that it can eliminate the need for energy management, it opens your bar up, but in a slightly different way than glimmer (tbh I think it is a more favorable way).

Myself, even though I have played several seasons as a heal monk, I don't really like them :/ Other than heal party and GoH, I don't think heal spells are effective unless you have 13ish healing. Prot on the other hand is very effective at low spec allowing you to branch out more in your attributes. Furthermore, even though healing power can be a great luxury at times, I think the job can be sufficiently fulfilled by a ele spamming heal party or even a prot monk with a low specced light of deliverance. Between the attributes and the ability to put healing power elsewhere in a build, I view having a primarily heal monk in GvG to much of a sacrifice.

Farin · Nov 02, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

On the subject of the allegedly "broken" rampage as one

it occurs to me after a little testing in GvG that this character is *extremely* fragile energy wise, and given even a little Edenial love he is going to have massively reduced efficiency. Also, it seems as if the pets die just as easily as they ever did, easier arguably as given the tight energy you cant afford to use comfort as a regular self heal

It is possibly the case that you need to run a few of these to get around these issues (we only ran one just to see how it looked), as there is no doubt that the damage is massive, I just worry about the fragility of the energy.

I got to play one in a pug a few days ago and it's like too good. You are basically in their face 24/7 if you want to (unless you get snared) You're pumping constant unkitable damage at a 25% IAS and since you have an open slot fitting in Poisonous Bite is simple and quite an addition to pressure. Energy is not an Issue if you're using Energizing Winds. Pets however, are a huge pain to deal with when constantly killed. That hindered my damage way more than an Esurge or an Eburn did.

In other words, It's too good as it is. I haven't seen any 4 Thumper 1 Tainted builds yet, quite surprising.

Drewfense · Nov 02, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

In other words, It's too good as it is. I haven't seen any 4 Thumper 1 Tainted builds yet, quite surprising.

A lot of 2 thumper, 2 Searing Heat eles, 1 tainted though. 4 thumpers has somewhat of a diminishing return in that your hex/condition and defense goes to hell. With 2 eles you can fit a lot more utility while retaining the pressure.

JR · Nov 02, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Just to clarify; I don't think Glimmer is amazing, or even above-par with other common Monk skills, but it is definately useable.

FireBolt · Nov 02, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

As Drewfense mentions:

Though Glimmer of Light does free up lots you do lose lots of raw healing power. And as mentioned before humility/diversion could hurt Glimmer of Light a lot. Just looking at the bars above, there is a heavy need on using Glimmer as the only heal in the bar (aside from the signet). But with that being said:

I do agree with JR- though, its not amazing, but it does have some uses.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 02, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Rampage thumpers are overpowered and definitely need a nerf. It's really a bizarre skill to add to Guild Wars, since it doesn't have much use on anything besides a thumper, and pre-Nightfall thumpers saw nerfs because their DPS was way too high. Now it's higher than ever.

While Pat is dead-on about the build's energy being fragile, it's still a reasonably effective build under denial because of energy skill spam, and if you're denying their melee characters you're not applying as much pressure yourself. Throwing e-denial a thumper's way isn't a bad play by any means, but it's not enough of a counter to bring the build into balance

I'm really not a fan of IB on thumpers now, incidentally. Not enough of a damage bonus or effect to be worth the slot. Bull's Strike is attractive now, and I've been using prot strike to pull out extra hammer autoattacks every few seconds.

In my opinion, Zealous Benediction is weak for GvG and good for HA and PvE. Any time damage is coming in steady and predictable the skill gets incredibly hot because you can hit the condition every time. Unfortunately, the only time this happens in PvP is a ghost on an altar, and a general lack of spike damage in 6v6.

I like Glimmer in GvG. It's a cool elite. I'd even suggest to our monks that they use it if the rest of Healing didn't suck so very very badly.

TimTimTimma · Nov 02, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

[build prof=Mo/A hea=10 pro=12 div=13][Contemplation of Purity][Signet of Devotion][Glimmer of Light][Dwayna's Kiss][Infuse Health][Dismiss Condition][Protective Spirit][Holy Veil][/build]

This is a Glimmer build I came up with after deciding to drop return for CoP and drop Shield of Absorbtion for Dwaynas, works very well IMO.

P.S. CoP+Veil = Dual Hex Removal = HAX >

Neo-LD · Nov 02, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

The healing line may suck but no one is forcing you to round out your bar with nothing but heal skills. Glimmer and maybe one other heal skill as backup in case it gets diverted... and youre good to go. Round out the bar with either some management or /A defense skills along with some prot, condition removal, and an obligatory purge signet, and you have a pretty decent monk. Not on par with B-Light, imo, but decent.

Shield of Absorbtion is hax at VoD if you can get all the archers to attack one guy. Other than that, nothing special. PS and SB both beat it for stopping normal spikes. I rate it slightly better than Shielding Hands.

Also, what is the big deal about Dismiss Condition? Its like, Mend Ailment with a slightly better recharge but dependent on a crappy condition? I shudder to think how many times you wont get the healing bonus because of the absence of enchants on your target.... that skill has to go into the right teambuild, imo (one with lots of aegis and taints etc), you cant just put it on any normal monk in any build and expect it to be good.

Drewfense · Nov 02, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Also, what is the big deal about Dismiss Condition? Its like, Mend Ailment with a slightly better recharge but dependent on a crappy condition?

In another thread someone was pretty much called a noob for bring Mend Ail over Dismiss. I don't get it either, it is like I missed the bus or something lol. Really the only situation I would consider running it would be if I had a taint...but even then I would be worried about effectiveness in a split.

JR · Nov 02, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

So after raving about Dismiss Condition and Glimmer Of Light, I ran them in GvG for all of tonight - untill in the end I switched out to a standard Blessed Light with Mend Ailment.

My bad.