Curse

JR · Oct 01, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath Of Dragons

dont like zealus benidiction at all. the 50% is calculated after other things, so its taking effect after DF and anyother heals. the person is way under 50

Exactly, at which point you don't want to be using a 3/4 second cast; you want to be using Infuse and not letting people die.

Rancour · Oct 01, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

A inherent property of scythes is the AOE attack delivery. I don't know why people are surprised that this also applies to attack skills delivered via a scythe as well.

This is true, but scythes are still bugged... Soldier's Strike, for instance, only adds damage to your target, while Thrill of Victory adds damage to all 3 targets even though they have almost the same description.

Red Locust · Oct 01, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath Of Dragons

dont like zealus benidiction at all. the 50% is calculated after other things, so its taking effect after DF and anyother heals. the person is way under 50

Actually the 50% is calculated before other things, but yeah it's real sketchy to rely on healing allies under 50%hp for your energy management, and other than that it's just an elite, self-targettable version of heal other that doesn't have the hex+condition removal of b-light.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Jagged Bones is an extremely powerful elite. We ran it in a pressure build over the weekend and got some very impressive results. Jagged Bones + Death Nova + Putrid Flesh on a minion allows you to quickly spread poison, bleeding, AND disease. Once you've got a few minions up, all exploding in different places on the battlefield, you're essentially a 1-man degen build.

The downside to this character is that he's pretty much useless until something dies. I guess he could do something like cast Aegis/Heal Party, spam orders, or run a flag, but he just doesn't contribute much until the corpses start piling up.

Yeah that sounds like a pretty good idea. I don't really like all the micro'ing necessary to get this to work though. Playing with the minion AI to get them to actually do something you want is hell. Bone minions + death nova + rotting&tainted flesh could probably achieve something similar (with easier disease spreading and disease immunity) but I don't think messing about with minions is worth the time and effort it takes.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 01, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Yeah that sounds like a pretty good idea. I don't really like all the micro'ing necessary to get this to work though. Playing with the minion AI to get them to actually do something you want is hell. Bone minions + death nova + rotting&tainted flesh could probably achieve something similar (with easier disease spreading and disease immunity) but I don't think messing about with minions is worth the time and effort it takes.

Jagged Bones adds something that minion masters never had in PvP - the ability to maintain their once they've gotten it running. Remember that Jagged Bones works on Jagged Horrors as well. If you're keeping up with the micromanagement, there's no reason for you to ever lose a minion once you've raised it from an initial corpse. Given the amount of pressure exploding minions can apply (even with bad AI), that's an extremely powerful threat to be holding over the enemy.

When we fought KGYU, one of the only reasons we held up in the base for so long was because every death added permanently to our army. The more they went around and killed perimeter archers, the more threat we could apply to their team.

They're a pain in the ass to maintain no doubt, but if you get a necro who's good at micromanagement they're a terrifying force. A minion necro is potentially the most powerful character on the field, and Jagged Bones finally gives them a chance to realize some of that potential in real PvP.

Of course, it could be that Jagged Bones will get nerfed, or that an easy counter will be found. It certainly worked out for us though.

Rancour · Oct 01, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

10 undead minions + Jagged Bones x10 + Death Nova x10 + Explosive Growth + Signet of Creation = Ouchies.

Could it work?

Thomas.knbk · Oct 01, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

So it could even be worth taking a saccer into GvG to guarantee that you'll get your army running xD you'd have 10+ minions before the match really started. In exchange for that you get a character assigned to bipping monks with 60DP at the start. This is a PvE character who swaps armor. With perfect equipment (minor runes only, +HP armor, sup vigor, +55axe, +30 offhand) he would still have a reasonable 362HP when the match started, and your minion army overwhealms the enemy in no time.
Could that work?

Riotgear · Oct 01, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Of course, it could be that Jagged Bones will get nerfed, or that an easy counter will be found. It certainly worked out for us though.

They might raise the recharge. As far as a counter, it's an enchantment, couldn't you just remove it from the minion and kill it, taking it permanently out of play? Or perhaps hit the necro with Signet of Humility then kill the re-raised jagged?

Khift · Oct 01, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

They might raise the recharge. As far as a counter, it's an enchantment, couldn't you just remove it from the minion and kill it, taking it permanently out of play?

It'd probably be easier just to kill the minion twice in a row. Might have to do it three times if the minionmancer is fast on his toes and gets a Jagged Bones on the newly rezzed minion, but still, minions go down like butter if you focus them.

FireBolt · Nov 01, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

So it could even be worth taking a saccer into GvG to guarantee that you'll get your army running xD you'd have 10+ minions before the match really started. In exchange for that you get a character assigned to bipping monks with 60DP at the start. This is a PvE character who swaps armor. With perfect equipment (minor runes only, +HP armor, sup vigor, +55axe, +30 offhand) he would still have a reasonable 362HP when the match started, and your minion army overwhealms the enemy in no time.
Could that work?

You can no longer swap armor in PvP. HoD axes changed to +5 energy as well.

Glimmer of Light isn't anything special either. Mind you the non-elite Holy Haste makes heal spells half cast. That extra 1/4 speed isn't going to make a difference, however you can save the elite for something else. It's like maybe a 110-120ish heal? Reversal probably give you about 30ish divine heal. People forget to realize that reversal is actually double the amount of the heal you get. Example: You get healed for 35, but you also negate 35 damage so its overall 70. Not to mention protection line has more utility than healing.

Mind Blast is actually a great elite for fire elementalist. Its e-management plus pressure. If you were to spam it every recharge, at high fire it gives 9 (10) energy back at 16, giving you a net of 4. 4 energy for 3 seconds (recharge+cast), that is 4 pips of energy. If you were to spam this in between rodgarts/fireball cooldowns, this becomes a lot of pressure.

Dragannia · Nov 01, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireBolt

You can no longer swap armor in PvP. HoD axes changed to +5 energy as well.

Glimmer of Light isn't anything special either. Mind you the non-elite Holy Haste makes heal spells half cast. That extra 1/4 speed isn't going to make a difference, however you can save the elite for something else. It's like maybe a 110-120ish heal? Reversal probably give you about 30ish divine heal. People forget to realize that reversal is actually double the amount of the heal you get. Example: You get healed for 35, but you also negate 35 damage so its overall 70. Not to mention protection line has more utility than healing.

Mind Blast is actually a great elite for fire elementalist. Its e-management plus pressure. If you were to spam it every recharge, at high fire it gives 9 (10) energy back at 16, giving you a net of 4. 4 energy for 3 seconds (recharge+cast), that is 4 pips of energy. If you were to spam this in between rodgarts/fireball cooldowns, this becomes a lot of pressure.

The disadvantage to Reversal is that it's utter shit at dealing with degen-pressure of any sort. It also is very conditional; you cast Reversal, get hit by a wand attack, and you're healed for 12 damage. Not the most energy efficient heal.

0mar · Nov 01, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

The disadvantage to Reversal is that it's utter shit at dealing with degen-pressure of any sort. It also is very conditional; you cast Reversal, get hit by a wand attack, and you're healed for 12 damage. Not the most energy efficient heal.

It's still better than most of the crap in the healing prayers line.

suiraCLAW · Nov 01, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

IMO, zealous benediction is fine. It works quite well versus 'non-concentrated' (aka aoe damage/degen) pressure, just like word of healing...

Patrograd · Nov 01, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by scamPOR

[Paragon]

Command
• "Incoming!" (Elite)
- Amazing in the right hands, low duration is a problem. {4/5}

• Anthem of Guidance (Elite)
- Useful, but not godlike. {4/5}

• Crippling Anthem (Elite)
- Decent elite {3/5}

Leadership
• Angelic Bond (Elite)
- Soso. Good for stopping spikes but also doesnt reduce any dmg. {3/5}

• Anthem of Fury (Elite)
- good for a warrior build. {3/5}

• Defensive Anthem (Elite)
- Very high recharge... Nothing amazing {1/5}

• Focused Anger (Elite)
- Nice for powering shouts, but otherwise pretty bad. For great justice is almost as good. {2/5}

• Soldier's Fury (Elite)
- Possibly a frenzy replacement on sword warriors. Not bad imo. {3/5}

Motivation
• "It's just a flesh wound." (Elite)
- draw conditons that is elite and doesn't transfer them. {2/5}

• "The Power Is Yours!" (Elite)
- On an adrenaline char, imba.... {5/5}

• Song of Purification (Elite)
- condition removal engine.... wowz {4/5}

• Song of Restoration (Elite)
- Decent anti-pressure healing. Better choices overall imo. {2/5}

Spear Mastery
• Cruel Spear (Elite)
- Fairly conditional Deepwound, but ranged evis if they arent moving. {3/5}

• Stunning Strike (Elite)
- High cost but condition is triggered by a prep on that same spear. {4/5}

No Attribute
• Cautery Signet (Elite)
- Martyr that causes burning. Rating is really depending on if the burning is per condition type or per condition per char. {2/5} - {3/5}

Feel free to post comments / arguements against.

I get the impression that people look at Paragon's and only see Incoming and Cautery signet

I've been playing alot of paragon recently, and IMO, the skill crippling anthem when combined with two or more melee characters is justification alone for a para in any such team. It is absolutely brutal

Not that big a fan of cautery signet, the cast time makes it difficult to use under pressure, which is when you want to be using it.

Incoming is nice in a way against spikes, but lacks the utility of for example dual blackouts imo

The whole motivation line I am unsure of tbh. It smacks a bit of "communing rit - hold at all costs"

Soldiers fury, despite the leadership attrib is a really nice secondary skill on a final thrust sword powered by low level watch yourself. 10 second duration, 5 energy which should be enough time to power watch yourself easily given the IAS. Safe Perma frenzy ftw

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 01, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I've been playing alot of paragon recently, and IMO, the skill crippling anthem when combined with two or more melee characters is justification alone for a para in any such team. It is absolutely brutal

I'm not really a fan of that skill, mostly because I think there are better options. If I want to devote an elite purely to movement control, I want it to be something I can direct to maximum effectiveness. Maybe I'll use a Crippling Shot guy to cripple their flagger, maybe I'll bring a YAA guy for ganks and beating people up on the retreat, but I probably won't bring an elite that will just throw random cripples around. With condition removal in its current form (spot removal on both monks, draw conditions, Extinguish hit fairly frequently) The window of opportunity before an important condition is fairly small. I want to be able to capitalize on that time, which means more direction than Crippling Anthem provides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Not that big a fan of cautery signet, the cast time makes it difficult to use under pressure, which is when you want to be using it.

We used it as condition control when everyone was running KGYUway and Toxicity during the preview weekend. It worked reasonably well, but I don't think it's worth unless the entire meta is about conditions. Any skill like this has to compete with Extinguish on the runner, which is a tall order given that Cautery Signet is elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Incoming is nice in a way against spikes, but lacks the utility of for example dual blackouts imo

We've been using Incoming and I've found it to be one of the most impressive elites the Paragon offers. It's an instant counter to any adren-spike and helps against caster/ranger spike, made especially nice because it only fills a single slot rather than being spread across multiple characters. You can plug Incoming into a build without a lot of specific spike counters (like dual blackouts) and do decently against spike without sacrificing other aspects of your build. This is a godsend for heavy pressure builds with a lot of melee characters that don't want to run a lot of Blackout on support characters.

Drewfense · Nov 01, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Exactly, at which point you don't want to be using a 3/4 second cast; you want to be using Infuse and not letting people die.

It depends how you look at it. If you play it like GoH where you are trying to just get red bars up in general (a mistake I made the first time :/ ), then yea it sucks. It is like playing a Word monk with no other healing spell. You will often be waiting for people to fall down (and knowing my luck the other monk will heal them right before I do QQ). Where ZB becomes nice is versus Fire AoE/Degen where everyones bars are hitting 50% or less. Then you can just zoom through the party window bringing people to full health. Similarly, a 3/4 second cast to catch a spike can be pushing your luck, but once you catch the spike, ZB can bring someone up to full health.

Both of these instances I view as significant weak points for the standard BLight so they compliment each other very well. As compared to RC...I am always very blah to RC. RC sucks splitting (unlike BLight/ZB it doesn't self target which is big) and really RC isn't better than mend condi unless there are large conditions stacks which I think makes it a wasted elite for the majority of matches. GvG isn't like tombs where you can expect to see a trapper every other match.

Xasew · Nov 01, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

If it was 75% instead of 50%, then maybe yea. 50% is just too risky.

Patrograd · Nov 01, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The window of opportunity before an important condition is fairly small. I want to be able to capitalize on that time, which means more direction than Crippling Anthem provides.

Well, we use it in a pressure build with 2 warriors, 2 surgers and a para command shouter. What this skill does is hold the targets in place for the duration of the warrior adrenal dump (it triggers on attack skill, not on hit, so is actually not at all random - example it makes sever cause bleeding and cripple, and eviscerate cause deep wound and cripple etc). It also acts as a trigger for blazing finale which we maintain on both warriors 24/7, so in fact, sever causes bleeding, cripple and burning, bulls strike causes cripple and burning even onto stationary foes - well you get the picture. The important thing is that it holds the target at the time you want them held while they get dumped on by a condition stacking warrior.

In this environment it really, really is brutal pressure.

Quote:

Any skill like this has to compete with Extinguish on the runner, which is a tall order given that Cautery Signet is elite.

agreed

Quote:

We've been using Incoming and I've found it to be one of the most impressive elites the Paragon offers. It's an instant counter to any adren-spike and helps against caster/ranger spike, made especially nice because it only fills a single slot rather than being spread across multiple characters. You can plug Incoming into a build without a lot of specific spike counters (like dual blackouts) and do decently against spike without sacrificing other aspects of your build. This is a godsend for heavy pressure builds with a lot of melee characters that don't want to run a lot of Blackout on support characters.

The issue I have with it is the attribute. Is it useable on non paragon primaries? Does the skill justify the use of a paragon primary? From the description I am assuming it wont do much against blood spike?

Drewfense · Nov 01, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Enchanters Conundrum (2/5) -> Rediculous spike potential. Conundrum + Shatter = 170 armor ignoring damage.

Glimmer of Light (5/5) -> 1/4 second cast, heals for crap. Not enough to counter a spike, 1/4 cast unnecessary versus pressure. It is an elite orison and orison is one of the worst skills in the game (quote and rage plx). Having played exclusively SB/Infuse in 8v8 HA and playing 200+ top 100 GvG matches as a heal monk (in Shhh/FnlD), I would much rather taking Healing Whisper and get a good healing elite. Tbh, in the end just run prot :/

ZB (3/5) -> Really good in combination with a Blight, see above.

Rampage as One (2/5) -> Broken x10. 25 energy is not much on a ranger (for a 25ish second duration, it is the equivalent of Tigers Fury). 33% attack boost (when Tigers was nerfed to 25) and a speed boost (the biggest counter to thumpers is kiting) AND it applies to your pet and is not a stance. GFG. It also opens up a spot on your bar for Apply/Poisonous Bite which adds even more pressure. I like the idea, but it needs to be toned down.

Burning Arrow (2/5) -> It is a lot of damage (+25ish with 3ish seconds burning) and doesn't have to be put in a condition build to be effective. It is an elite people haven't really tapped into yet (we are running one atm).

Destructive Chop (3/5) -> Sex on adren spikes. Use Burst of Aggression.

Magehunter's Smash (2/5) -> Yea hammers got screwed. Will we see any hammers in the playoffs? Other than thumpers that is.

"Your All Alone!" (3/5) -> It isn't bugged, the skill description is incorrect :P During the preview it was adjacent, 8 second recharge, and incorrect 20 sec duration. It is now 10 sec recharge and correctly 10 sec duration. The big thing is even though it says adjacent, it is now nearby (adjacent is insane, during the preview people had 4-5 copies of the elite in a build to abuse it). It is godlike 1v1 or splitting, but it is kinda weak now 8v8 (as it should) and that leads us to probably my favorite elite of nightfall...

Crippling Slash (3/5) -> I think once people start using this it will be addictive. It is a 10+ second cripple that is covered by bleeding. In comparison to a normal sword bar, being able to longterm (even perpetually) cripple and cover adds a ton of pressure. Unlike the dslash though, a crippling slash can bring final thrust making him much better at spiking. It is almost like a Charge! sword where the warrior is great for applying pressure, but still has strong spiking power.

Steady Stance (1/5) -> Steady Stance + Drunken Blow spam = hilarious. I think SNA was running 2 of these warriors (on axe?). It is actually a lot of damage although they didn't do that well in the match I saw.

Edit: Side note -> A lot of balancing issues still need to be done and there will always be crappy elites (glimmering mark ftw), but I think Nightfall >>>> Factions. Factions gave us a spirit spammer and a ganker, Nightfall gave us 2 legitimate main party characters. The paragon has already made a huge impact and the dervish is only a matter of time (dV is a little ahead of the crowd with their 3 R/D pressure build). In general though-for all classes-this season has introduced much more new and creative builds than I have seen in GW for a long time.

Drewfense · Nov 01, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

The issue I have with it is the attribute. Is it useable on non paragon primaries? Does the skill justify the use of a paragon primary? From the description I am assuming it wont do much against blood spike?

It doesn't justify, 2 seconds duration is more than enough for it to be fully effective so you can put it on a dom mez or sword warrior. It does work against blood spike (I think). Half of the damage from blood spike is Shadow which should be cut in half. The life stealing of course will still go through. Cutting the shadow damage in half should be more than enough for any monk without a 1/4 second cast to stop the spike regularly.

GG anet btw. Between Incoming (and various other skills they have added in the last 2 chapters) and Isle of the Wurms, they have pretty much insured that pure spike will never become horribly rampant (a la oflame spike last season).

Edit: More importantly, it cuts the first part of Og in half which I view as the most potent form of bspike in GvG (ton of damage if they have 7 spikers and NPC advantage = goodbye at VoD).

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 01, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Nothing impressive. "your all alone", blinding surge, avatars, and incoming are definatley my must have skills. Anyone know if charging strike + bulls strike still gives +dmg from charging?