Curse

Seamus Finn · Dec 14, 2006, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Let's not forget, Mend heals for 70 (about as much as WoC does atm?), while removing a condition. Therefore MC>WoC. What's the point in comforting someone over their pain/grief/whatever when you can just take it away?

Oh you guys, I keep letting you tempt me into saying the same thing over and over again(shame on me really). If the target has a deep wound, guess what? you are probably not picking EITHER option. You are protting or infusing that target since he's probably being spiked. Afterwards yeah you remove the condition but WoC isn't taking that spot on your bar unless you are stupid. WoC is a pressure relieving heal. Thus, when conditions such as poison bleeding disease are stacked on a target, I would use WoC on the targets for nice big cheap HEALS. Then tell the draws/martyrs/extinguish guys to get to work. It's not my job to be removing stacked degen conditions. I'm going to stop with these responses, I promise. I've stated my case and if Anet believe Zur, all teh better. I'll start running primary heal bars with WoC AND a condition removal/prots since any decent monk bar needs both(repeating myself again... I reall ymust not believe I'm being heard here).

Etrik · Dec 14, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Oh you guys, I keep letting you tempt me into saying the same thing over and over again(shame on me really). If the target has a deep wound, guess what? you are probably not picking EITHER option. You are protting or infusing that target since he's probably being spiked. Afterwards yeah you remove the condition but WoC isn't taking that spot on your bar unless you are stupid. WoC is a pressure relieving heal. Thus, when conditions such as poison bleeding disease are stacked on a target, I would use WoC on the targets for nice big cheap HEALS. Then tell the draws/martyrs/extinguish guys to get to work. It's not my job to be removing stacked degen conditions. I'm going to stop with these responses, I promise. I've stated my case and if Anet believe Zur, all teh better. I'll start running primary heal bars with WoC AND a condition removal/prots since any decent monk bar needs both(repeating myself again... I reall ymust not believe I'm being heard here).

I wasn't talking about Deep Wound. Your argument is flawed, because this really only applies to one condition. What if the target has burning, bleeding, poison, disease on them? Are they gonna get spiked then too? No. Mend wins. End of.

Seamus Finn · Dec 14, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

I wasn't talking about Deep Wound. Your argument is flawed, because this really only applies to one condition. What if the target has burning, bleeding, poison, disease on them? Are they gonna get spiked then too? No. Mend wins. End of.

Hating myself for bothering... but please try reading my whole post. I don't think I wrote a whole paragraph about a deep wound. Thanks.

Etrik · Dec 14, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Hating myself for bothering... but please try reading my whole post. I don't think I wrote a whole paragraph about a deep wound. Thanks.

I did. The only possibility of MC=WoC is when there's a spike going on, and neither of them will help the target. In any other case, MC shines and WoC doesn't. The Healing line, per se, is flawed. Especially by iteslf. Now a HB+DH is golden, but that's two people. We're talking about individual skill bars.

A BL with GoH, RoF, BL, Holy Veil, Dismiss Condition will always win over whatever bar you're running in RA. Always.

The healing line needs quite a few buffs before it sees some use amongst groups that only pack one monk.

And don't hate yourself, it's really bad karma ^^.

Seamus Finn · Dec 14, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

I did. The only possibility of MC=WoC is when there's a spike going on, and neither of them will help the target. In any other case, MC shines and WoC doesn't. The Healing line, per se, is flawed. Especially by iteslf. Now a HB+DH is golden, but that's two people. We're talking about individual skill bars.

A BL with GoH, RoF, BL, Holy Veil, Dismiss Condition will always win over whatever bar you're running in RA. Always.

The healing line needs quite a few buffs before it sees some use amongst groups that only pack one monk.

And don't hate yourself, it's really bad karma ^^.

Sorry my friend, you just posted about RA as though it meant anything and then stated that we have to look at individual skill bars, as if other monks don't exist. I would respond to what you've typed, but given that I already have and what you just posted here, I'll save my lazy little fingers.

...And I do hate myself because it's Emo and Emo is cool... or something.

urania · Dec 14, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

A BL with GoH, RoF, BL, Holy Veil, Dismiss Condition will always win over whatever bar you're running in RA. Always.

I disagree there.

ZB prot with stances is more useful and can hold out longer than a blight...it's also less vulnerable to daze/knockdowns...least that's the feeeling i had after running ZB in RA.

also, monks aren't gods, so if you get stuck with crap ppl you are bound to lose sooner or later no matter how good you are.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 14, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

I disagree there.

ZB prot with stances is more useful and can hold out longer than a blight...it's also less vulnerable to daze/knockdowns...least that's the feeeling i had after running ZB in RA.

ZB is strong in RA, no question. The lack of spikes and ability to predict damage really helps a good monk, since you can milk ZB's condition to great effect. In general, the more predictable the damage, the better ZB gets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

also, monks aren't gods

Clearly you have never monked with Alizes or Tommy.

JR · Dec 14, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Clearly you have never monked with Alizes or Tommy.

Thanks for leaving me out of that one, asshat.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 14, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

As much as I make fun of JR's warrior play, he really is an awesome monk.

(Don't ban me.)

Thomas.knbk · Dec 14, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

I disagree there.

ZB prot with stances is more useful and can hold out longer than a blight...it's also less vulnerable to daze/knockdowns...least that's the feeeling i had after running ZB in RA.

Keywords are 'in RA'

Kabale · Dec 14, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

ZB prot with stances is more useful and can hold out longer than a blight...it's also less vulnerable to daze/knockdowns...least that's the feeeling i had after running ZB in RA.

I ran this to begin with but have recently found more security in just running Return instead of Balanced Stance. You'll get knocked down anyway as you can't keep it up 24/7. With smart use of Return you can keep out of harm's way of a Thumper for longer, at least that's my experience of it.

Quote:

Keywords are 'in RA'

Well this is Gladiator's Arena last time I checked it, and the discussion is about the different effective Monk builds NF has brought to the table.

RA is not complete scrub-arena. I frequent it often on my Monk because it is good training. You face all kinds of different builds and learn to deal with and recognize different kinds of damage sources, and you're basically on your own.

For example, Tommy from QQ used to use a very similar bar in GvG to those run by RA Monks which involves ZB. From one of the matches I saw of QQ, he was left on his own with the flag stand and was able to keep up with the damage (albeit I suspect this was at the time of pre-nerf EF) caused by the other team without the support of another Monk. From a 'solo' Monk perspective, the build is very effective and fun to play, and I also suspect the build was 'discovered' in a 4v4 setting, where it excels.

Senator Tom · Dec 14, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Clearly you have never monked with Alizes or Tommy.

no idea who alizes is but tommy is so leet. got ten consec in RA easy with him on a mo/w divert, most were flawless. but, its not all the monk...the ele acctually kited :P

Byron · Dec 14, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

RA is not complete scrub-arena. I frequent it often on my Monk because it is good training. You face all kinds of different builds and learn to deal with and recognize different kinds of damage sources, and you're basically on your own.

QFT - I often hit RA with my monk when I've got nothing better to do. It's effective training because the people on your team are often plain awful; they'll flurry right through that Spoil Victor/SS, flare spam, run a Rt/R beast master. Etc. If you can keep those types of people alive, experienced players should be no problem at all.

But, ZB is so much easier than anything else. I would actually advise against going ZB in RA just because its so bloody effective. You might get too accustomed to it and forget the strain of real monking.

Blame the Monks · Dec 14, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I'm willing to bet that everyone who posts on guru about how bad the players in RA are and how easy RA is has less than 30 glad points.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 14, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I do!

I don't even like RA, but if you have 1 good monk, and one good player, you win.

Seamus Finn · Dec 14, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

This thread has gone way off topic; but as someone with **MORE** than 30 glad points(pat on my back!), I can say RA is incredibly easy for decent offensive players. RA is annoying for decent monks that don't want to rage all over the place, but usually not hard either. The main threat comes from the one good player in the 20 or so you face slipping under your radar...

Drewfense · Dec 15, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I agree with JR/Squidget/5 others. Outside of the elite slot, monk builds are very one dimensional. Instead of everyone running boon prot, they run the same 4 base skills with a couple bells and whistles attached. There was more variety before the boon prot nerf. Really factions had far more important non-elite monk skills than nightfall does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

However, I'm loving the multitude of secondary classes that can now be effectively used on a Monk.

Umm...in terms of secondaries, Nightfall added Conviction/Boon which is kinda crappy...soldiers stance which is very build specific... All the commonly used secondary options use skills that have been in the game for a long time now. The only reason they are seeing use is because inspiration was nerfed to hell. Its hard for me to call something the golden age of monking in response to a monking nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You could cast a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 point heal on someone with blindness/cripple and it still wouldn't solve the problem.

Makes them feel warm and fuzzy...and blind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Tom

Golden age for Monks =

GvG - OoB Boon Prots
Tombs - woh/hp, sb/infuse, active prot

Miss those days

sb/infuse is the single greatest monk build ever. god bless ladder lock...it gives me an excuse to run my serpents quickness spell breaker monk...

I would like to see the heal in mend ailment be conditional on removal only, I think that would be more balanced.

Healing spells don't really need a boost. Spirit Bond just needs to be a healing spell. At the moment, there is no way counter spikes other than infuse and that really holds back the line. I think they tried to do that with Supportive Spirit, but they are afraid if they go to far, the spell line will be to powerful.

Zuranthium · Dec 16, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Umm...in terms of secondaries, Nightfall added Conviction/Boon which is kinda crappy...soldiers stance which is very build specific... All the commonly used secondary options use skills that have been in the game for a long time now.

I've seen Paragon secondary used effectively on Monks.

Elementalist secondary is excellent now because of GoLE; on the correct bar that skill is better energy management than pre-nerf Mantra of Recall...and it's not even an Elite!

~Z

Drewfense · Dec 16, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Only decent paragon was incoming which was nerfed.

GoLE is a good point, still not as good as the old mesmer non-elite skills though. Losing a drain enchantment for instance isn't just about energy, but the loss of enchant removal.

Zuranthium · Dec 16, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Only decent paragon was incoming which was nerfed.

No, there are others. I've seen dual Mo/P's with Brace Yourself and Make Haste...they use those on each other (or whoever needs it) to kite and prevent knockdowns.

And GoLE > Drain Enchantment. It takes NO attribute points to use GoLE. Pre-nerf Drain Enchant required a decent amount of your points for just a +7 energy gain. Sure the enchantment removal could be nice, but the benefit of GoLE is better overall.

~Z