Curse

lightofflame · Dec 17, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

In the first game, not really no.

We didn't really know what to expect going in, so we thought we would hedge our bets and run an 8v8 build on an 8v8 map. The map turned out to be the one they preffered anyway, as it gave us very little space to spread out and avoid the Dervish AoE and kite.

We also went into the first game with two Warriors, which proved to be a pretty crippling mistake - given the Aegis and Blinding Surge. It was switching to the three Mesmer variation in the second game that allowed us to get the kills that we did.

Also a large problem in the first game was underrating their build, and getting more and more frustrated as pressure on us mounted and we couldn't get kills. It still surprises me how they had so much pressure - i'll probably observe that match a few times. However, at this point we had our LoD runner going, so being down on that really hurt us also.

In game two we pulled back over the bridge in to the large open area (Jade Isle again, their choice this time), and had our runner stay with us. In this position we were able to hold pretty solidly untill VoD - but it gave them positioning advantage over us, which proved to be too much to fight through.

We had chances though, in game two we almost got a base res on one of their Monks at VoD - but we someone missed the Hard Res that just caught him (bit sketchy on the details of this, at this point I was hammering my keyboard trying to keep people alive). There is a lot of 'what if's'; what if we had switched to their build for round 2, what if we had gone in with 5 Searing Flame Eles, what if we had gone split in round one instead of spike?

At the end of the day, they played better and had a stronger build. It would sound like a lame excuse to say that I think that build is a bit stronger than it should be, but I will anyway. That aside they deserved the wins, and they were good but frustrating games.

Sounds like they beat you with smart play, otherwise known as "being better". Hm who said this already?

Khanoute · Dec 17, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

First round : Jade Isle (not a bad idea considering aNc strong split)
QQ ran a pressure build with Vanq as a tainted D/N and Famous as a Prepared Shot/Concussion/Savage ranger. aNc had their usual build, a 3 man split while keeping a strong spike at the flagstand. aNc played really agressively from the scratch, took some deaths on their split but managed to get a morale boost. Once both teams regrouped at the flagstand, aNc decided to have their blind surger babysit Famous 24/7. It went all downhill from there for QQ

Second round : Corrupted Isle

Same build for aNc, QQ made several changes, bringing to the table a third monk (to counter aNc W/Mo, R/Mo, E/Mo split, which they did successfully) and a Me/E Blind Surger. This time around, QQ had a stronger build at the flagstand and aNc started to accumulate dp. QQ rolled over them at VoD with the NPC advantage and the numerous morale boosts.

Third round : Burning Isle

Unchanged build for QQ, aNc swapped their usual SF ele for a second mesmer. Kirei (aNc ranger) started to lurk into QQ base, keeping Axiom (Mo/E) busy with healing npcs and soon QQ had to send one of their para to run the flag. In the meantime, aNc scored a few kills at the flagstand.
Soon they sent Memphys, their warrior, to help Kirei with cleaning a few more archers. They killed Axiom in the process which allowed them to force a morale boost. At VoD, Kirei aggroed QQ's npc when they head out of their base, giving his team a slight edge at the flagstand. aNc kept the momentum and killed QQ lord at 28.

JR · Dec 17, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightofflame

Sounds like they beat you with smart play, otherwise known as "being better". Hm who said this already?

Right, but at least I can admit it - instead of making excuses.

dansamy · Dec 17, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Excuses are like.... well, everyone's got one and they all stink.

Phelann · Dec 17, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo

Very impressive play by Tag. ICE didn't stand a chance.

I agree that tag had some very, very, VERY impressive play this round BUT I would also like to say they came up with one of the most ridiculous builds ever. So much RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing defense @_@ But they knew exactly what playstyle ICE would run, so they ran the perfect build for it.

Winstar · Dec 17, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Hey Khanoute,

Thanks for the recap, much appreciated.

JR · Dec 18, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

So much RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing defense @_@ But they knew exactly what playstyle ICE would run, so they ran the perfect build for it.

It was a pretty close call actually.

I wanted to run our split on Druids or Frozen, which we never to pull out in the play-offs - sadly. As I said - we ended up hedging our bets against an opponent we didn't know much about and forcing an 8 vs 8 with our strongest build. That turned out to be a mistake, and we seriously underestimated tag, and their ability to outbuild something which we had thought it particularly difficult to counter.

Ideally after this we would have switched to our split, which would have been a far better play against them - but it seemed pretty obvious that tag would basicly want a rematch of the first game, and would probably choose Jade again. As such we had little choice but to modify our build and style to compensate - which allowed us to hold up to VoD with minimal deaths, but it still wasn't enough.

Seamus Finn · Dec 18, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Wow... I can't believe Tag's game 1 loss to PnH was allowed to stand. QQ vs PnH in the Round robin was reset because QQ didn't load, but if one player doesn't load in a game between guild like that it's basically over. I would understand an er7 in the middle of a game, but a monk not loading and they don't restart? lame. I would say this tournament increase my opinion of tag immensely though, seeing as how they got the reputation for just pummeling noobs in the ladder.

tomcruisejr · Dec 18, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

PnH metagamed Cel. The weakness of Cel's build is ranged spike.

Thom · Dec 18, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I found Cel's movement to be a bit slow and reactive. PnH basically controlled the second and third matches without issue. Second match was all movement and third was build/suprise. Cel should have tried basically any other tactic when they were getting repeated beaten by the spike. Stubbornly playing straight up with a build disadvantage always ends the same way.

Seamus Finn · Dec 18, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

PnH metagamed Cel. The weakness of Cel's build is ranged spike.

Umm I wouldnt' say that. They still ran an incoming paragon and infuse on a monk. PnH looked to be running what the Necro Raiders beat them with in the quarterfinals(if I recall correctly, PnH members were resigning that like half way through the match). A stroke of luck to run into such a strong counter seeing as how they ran a build almost(if not totally) identical to what Cel ran the whole tourney through. Lots of sig of humilitys and bsurges shut down Cel War and incoming which, along with a ton of diversions, allowed spikes to get through. They really played poker with Cel more than outmetagamed them. Cel had the map choice and since they beat PnH game one on Burning PnH wagered that they would want a rematch of game one. PnH pulled out exactly what owned them when they ran the build and got a gold cape for it. Though the build was lame, the strat was commendable.

Edek · Dec 18, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

We didnt know PnH could run this build. They suprised us. We would have much better chance with our pressure build, we used to beat OUT's spiritual pain spike. "They are on fire" and incoming is really devastating for such spike. I still wonder how we killed anything with 2 incomings and 2 blinding surges against us :P.

tomcruisejr · Dec 18, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

...

.. Stubbornly playing straight up with a build disadvantage always ends the same way.

what can you expect, Cel played spike. the difference is that Cel's was predictable (just watch the warrior) and PnH's build @ game 3 was not that predictable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

They really played poker with Cel more than outmetagamed them. ...

maybe im using the wrong word.

PnH rock, paper, scissor-ed Cel. lol

Khanoute · Dec 18, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Thanks for the recap, much appreciated.

Was a pleasure. All in all, The Ancients played amazingly well and they did deserve their win against QQ. Actually, I was rather surprised/disappointed to see them lost against Cel.
The key point would be the second match of the semi final, aNc had the upper hand on their Corrupted Isle, they cleared out half of Cel's NPCs, scored a few kills at the flagstand. And suddenly they started to die while trying to bodyblock/force a morale boost right when at VoD. Cel took their chances and never let them come back in the match. The third round was pretty disappointing, not much aNc could do against such a spike. And their players seemed tired.
Still, The Ancients pulled out some of the best tactics during those playoffs, grats dudes =)

And grats to PnH aswell, probably the most consistent play this week end. The second round of the final on Frozen Isle was just GREAT. And metagaming Cel on their Burning Isle with a mesmer spike was pretty smart. Kudos to Cel aswell, they played really strong, despite all the crap they got.

Khanoute · Dec 18, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

PnH looked to be running what the Necro Raiders beat them with in the quarterfinals(if I recall correctly, PnH members were resigning that like half way through the match).

Actually NR ran the mesmer spike three times during the quarter finals against PnH. They only won once, on their Isle of Dead. The two other times, it was pretty straightforward for PnH...

Jaden Stone · Dec 18, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Wow... I can't believe Tag's game 1 loss to PnH was allowed to stand. QQ vs PnH in the Round robin was reset because QQ didn't load, but if one player doesn't load in a game between guild like that it's basically over. I would understand an er7 in the middle of a game, but a monk not loading and they don't restart? lame. I would say this tournament increase my opinion of tag immensely though, seeing as how they got the reputation for just pummeling noobs in the ladder.

Unfortunatly you are only allowed 1 restart before the gates open during the single eliminations. We used this when our paragon didn't load vs ICE first round. So there was nothing we could really do about the missing monk

. I'm quite glad PnH won because they really are a nice guild. They all apologized ... twice I guess because this happend during swiss round vs them as well (PnH lag Hax imo). In round 2 although we were dominating them, the lag struck again for our poor monk creating a team wipe at around 16-17 minutes. We lost our position and composure and in the end PnH outplayed us a VoD. It was a dissapointing way to end the tournement for us, but I am happy for PnH because they do deserve it and are a very versitile guild.

As for our games with ICE they went pretty well. We had a very stong build against them and predicted what they would be running in game 1. Like JR said we wanted basically a repeat of round 1 in round 2, so went with the same map and build. In round 2 They definatly Showed us a thing or two during that match with the Tri-mesmer build. ICE was able to achieve kills through our defence and forced VoD with defencive diversion spam. At Vod we had positioning and moral and with the limiting factors of that map there really wasnt much to be done. They played extremely well but it's hard to win against your perfect counter on a limiting map.

one thing I was not surprised by was The Ancients. We had the good fortune of playing them once on the ladder before the tourney. At the begining of the match we Mocked them over vent Saying, "OOoooOOO The Ancients OOoooh Noooohs." At the end of the match after we got our butts handed to us by being absolutly outplayed, we had already decided they were not someone to be underestimated. I do wish they had played in the finals and hope to see them in the future.

tricolorsp · Dec 18, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Jaden Stone stole my post :[

Seamus Finn · Dec 18, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khanoute

Actually NR ran the mesmer spike three times during the quarter finals against PnH. They only won once, on their Isle of Dead. The two other times, it was pretty straightforward for PnH...

They ran the idea 3 times, but the 2nd two times was noticably different than the first. I know they added another M/E to run flags as opposed to the E/mo or Mo/E(forgot which one). This gave them an easy win in game two. I think thats when they either changed tactics or added the extra shutdown in the build(I watched a lot of games so I can't recall how much the build changed but the match played out entirely differently and PnH fought them straight up every time if I remember correctly, so I think the build/gameplan was altered). Also, at game 3, PnH pulled out the dual angelic bonders to counter the spike, getting the win, and was not running the Paragon,3 mes, 1 war offence that they ran prior... Splitting hairs I suppose, but I do think the Necro Raiders showed PnH how to win. Of course, PnH could have figured this out on their own beforehand or found another entirely different counter if needed; they are very good players. But it's just my dramatic interpretation I suppose...

On a side note, it was sad to see how much the games seemed to revolve around B-surge. The only melee pressure that seemed viable was Melandru's... not at all a coincidense that they are immune from blinds eh?

Jim1 · Dec 18, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khanoute

aNc vs QQ round 1 : Blinding Surge > Prepared Shot/Concussion Shot.

I think it pretty sums it all.

Every game in playoffs: Blinding Surge + Spiritual Pain > all.

Akaraxle · Dec 18, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim1

Every game in playoffs: Blinding Surge + Spiritual Pain > all.

An even shorter version: VoD > all.