Curse

JR · Dec 26, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

yep and the forum should have say "get 5 warning points from the mods and bye bye guru" system.

There is exactly that kind of system in place already, and I have exercised it in the past.

Clusmas · Dec 26, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Perhaps a couple more mods to press that lovely delete button? (Thread trimming as opposed to thread locking).

More good stuff to read, less crap.

If people realize their posts are getting deleted AND they get a warning, maybe they'll notice something's up. Then again, some of the idiots on here, maybe not..

I would even suggest a 'formal' forum, explicitly for pvp articles and well thought out discussions, in which each and every thread and post must be approved by a moderator before it is displayed. (If indeed that is possible).

JR · Dec 26, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clusmas

I would even suggest a 'formal' forum, explicitly for pvp articles and well thought out discussions, in which each and every thread and post must be approved by a moderator before it is displayed. (If indeed that is possible).

I did consider this, but I don't currently have the stream of content coming in to justify it having it's own section. I don't really have the time anymore to write articles, and those people that do tend to be one-offs.

In future it is something I would like to implement if the community expands significantly.

Divinus Stella · Dec 28, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

The personal flaming is something you can't avoid in a pvp environment, lots of hormonally frustrated teenagers with big ego's.

But for all the other posts about issues concerning HA, i think people get frustrated with the lack of answers/action from anet, i think having a forum full of topics all saying "REMOVE NOOB HEROS GAYNET!" actually gets more attention than a carefully worded statement hidden in a thread 13 pages thick.

The forum does have a lack of build discussion, but i think observer killed that, people already know what the new flavor is without needing a forum, the only thing left to discuss is skill changes which happens once in a blue moon and peoples opinion on why Heros Ascent is dead.

Amok Affinity · Jan 01, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

i think that is more a reflection of the [majority of the] community itself than anything, sadly...

the forum would certainly be more aesthetically pleasing if you could delete [some of] the locked threads entirely. I understand that their being locked instead of wholly removed may be intended as a deterrent, but if the problem is not actually the OP then... yeah.

imho, begin warning/punishing the more noticable thread derailers, or in lieu of immediately singling members out, attempt to establish and enforce stricter "on topic" guidelines in the PvP subforums (all of 'em).

dunno. :P

Stupid Shizno · Jan 02, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

id rather have a section dedicated to usefull information then a bunch of threads bashing so and so for such and such build

Cass · Jan 04, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

On the one hand, some of the thread-closing has been overzealous in my view, but on the other hand I can see the amount of trash posted (and deservedly locked) here would drive anyone mad.

Maybe ban more rather than cleaning up the offender's dribble all the time, and maybe relax a bit on the policing.

Seems like it's gotten a bit better now that heroway is a thing of the past, doesn't it? Imagine the paradise it would be if it goes back to 8v8!

The Real Roy Keane · Jan 05, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Does this mean that the HA section isn't a forum to discuss whther MATH were n33bs/l33t pwners anymore?

Thom Bangalter · Jan 05, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I think Syra is one of the best posters in the HA section to be honest, if he cleaned up his grammar a bit. Too bad everyone hates IWAY so much.

As others have noted, none of this happened before 6v6, since every post starts out "I think 8v8 should be brought back because blah blah blah".

People need to accept their loss, Anet needs to listen to the community, and people need to find better uses of their time then trolling the HA section accomplishing nothing. Trolling the campfire is way more fun anyway.

tomcruisejr · Jan 05, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I think Syra is one of the best posters in the HA section to be honest, if he cleaned up his grammar a bit. Too bad everyone hates IWAY so much.

hahha thanks. i always try to challenge the popular opinion/view etc.

anyway, fark grammar. it's the thought that counts (but i agree that bad grammar can cause miscommunication. will improve it, when ill have time).

Kabale · Jan 05, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

(but i agree that bad grammar can cause miscommunication. will improve it, when ill have time).

Nice xD

The whole 8vs8 thing has kinda stirred this place up royally, worse than it's ever been before. That 8-page thread about Gaile posting on TGH is really really bad and should have been closed way before it got to page 2. There is absolutely no reason to keep it open if you can't even keep up with the cleaning of other people's trashtalk, and I think it has affected the Anet<>Guru communication badly. I don't see what it could have achieved had it not been locked after 8 pages of garbage. 'Voicing opinion' is good and all, but some people should really just stfu if they can't voice theirs maturely.

On a slightly related note, mods with a biased view on a 'controversial' topic doesn't help either. This could cause the effect of people voicing their opinions even louder and feeling justified in doing so.

Earendil · Jan 05, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Nice xD

The whole 8vs8 thing has kinda stirred this place up royally, worse than it's ever been before. That 8-page thread about Gaile posting on TGH is really really bad and should have been closed way before it got to page 2. There is absolutely no reason to keep it open if you can't even keep up with the cleaning of other people's trashtalk, and I think it has affected the Anet<>Guru communication badly. I don't see what it could have achieved had it not been locked after 8 pages of garbage. 'Voicing opinion' is good and all, but some people should really just stfu if they can't voice theirs maturely.

On a slightly related note, mods with a biased view on a 'controversial' topic doesn't help either. This could cause the effect of people voicing their opinions even louder and feeling justified in doing so.

/agree on all points

People should learn a basic concept - if you want to get respect you should start by giving it. Never seen so many (unpunished) direct verbal aggressions on a forum in a long time (as a result to an obviously vague and sensationalist info). The only effect is a -10 credibility of the Guru forum in the eyes of Anet, which does not serve most of the people posting here and does nothing to promote their points of view. That thread should have been stopped or cleaned earlier, especially since the info all those reactions were based on was not confirmed.
When a kid throws a temper tantrum in a crowded shop, the recommended attitude for the mother is to simply ignore him (after making sure he cannot hurt himself or the others) - he will eventually learn that this type of behavior brings him nothing. Guess that's what might happen here.

Also agree on the moderator issue - when you put on your moderator hat you have specific responsibilities. You are no longer free to voice your opinion the same as before since anything you say can and will be taken as an official position of the mod team, including in the eyes of Anet. While I might have my personal reasons not to like JR (no offence), I have to admit his posts and attitude as moderator here are exemplary as impartiality goes.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 05, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

When I came online in the morning, the thread was already 5 pages long. At the initial stages of the drama I decided not to close the thread, but censor it cutting out all direct attacks and/or profanities, simply because of all the rage of many regular guru posters. Divineshadows was helping me with the whole process. Sadly, people were pushing it too far, and JR decided to close it, and I think it was a good decision. Finally i've decided to delete it, as it really wasnt a nice view.

I hate shutting others up, especially when they are emotional about something, showing, that they really really care. Sadly, I agree with you that some pushed the line too far. But TBH I see that only the GURU community cares about whats gonna happen to Heroes Ascent. Others ignore it, or would be happy to finally sink us , and drive us out of the game.

Guru is the only online forum which has the real HA community, comprised mostly of devoted, experienced and good players, if somehow empotional posters. Ignoring the voice of this community caused the whole drama ourbreak. Its really not fair when Anet representatives post important info of forums like TGH, which is well known for its biased opinion about HA and HA community.

Simply put, when you're deciding future of certain part of the game, be sure to inform and discuss the issue with the real players, not armchair experts who've last seen HOH in 2005.

If you want to know the opinion of the active and experienced HA players, you come to guru, simple as that. And we all know that HA isnt the nice, carebear place, especially you Kirsty, right

Im sure it doesnt affect relations between our community and anet at all. Gaile in her personal message sent to me assured me it is not the case, besiedes as you probably noticed, she started to post in this section again.

I will continue to mod this place giving as much freedom to posters as possible. The only three things that wont be tolerated are : offtopic posting, profanity, and direct flame towards other guru poster or anet employee. I always welcome PMs from you if you have further questions / requests. We might also use this thread for discussion.

Peace.

Kabale · Jan 05, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Guru is the only online forum which has the real HA community, comprised mostly of devoted, experienced and good players, if somehow empotional posters. Ignoring the voice of this community caused the whole drama ourbreak. Its really not fair when Anet representatives post important info of forums like TGH, which is well known for its biased opinion about HA and HA community.

From what I've seen on this forum, an attempt has been made to get player opinions and I believe Anet has posted on all the major fansite boards about it too. The message on TGH was worded wrong which is what caused all the fuss, Gaile isn't favouring one or the other as far as I'm aware.

I don't think we're being ignored - but there is only so much we can say and then it lands back in Anet's hands. I think the real problem here was the fact that the request for ideas on how to improve the situation was open for too long - people started getting worried that nothing was being done and they were not being listened to, and anything that was being said by Gaile (specifically) began being taken out of context.

A simple 'Thank you for your ideas, we're taking them into consideration and will be updating you when there is any news.' would have been fine, instead of letting it linger on until people got pi$$ed.

Etrik · Jan 05, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

I still don't get why you haven't inforced a very simple, yet effective rule: you flame, you get a 1-day ban; you flame again, you get a 3-day ban; you flame again, you get a perma-ban. The flaming would stop. If they make smurf accounts, bring the popcorn and start banning IP(range)s.

JR · Jan 05, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

I still don't get why you haven't inforced a very simple, yet effective rule: you flame, you get a 1-day ban; you flame again, you get a 3-day ban; you flame again, you get a perma-ban.

Because the majority of people who would probably end up recieving a ban are actually people who's opinions I value the mosty, oddly. I'd rather they just learnt to post maturely, instead of taking them out of debates.

However, if no other approach works then I don't have much choice.

dansamy · Jan 05, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Nice xD

The whole 8vs8 thing has kinda stirred this place up royally, worse than it's ever been before. That 8-page thread about Gaile posting on TGH is really really bad and should have been closed way before it got to page 2. There is absolutely no reason to keep it open if you can't even keep up with the cleaning of other people's trashtalk, and I think it has affected the Anet<>Guru communication badly. I don't see what it could have achieved had it not been locked after 8 pages of garbage. 'Voicing opinion' is good and all, but some people should really just stfu if they can't voice theirs maturely.

On a slightly related note, mods with a biased view on a 'controversial' topic doesn't help either. This could cause the effect of people voicing their opinions even louder and feeling justified in doing so.

I initially deleted that thread last night. Someone else reopened it. Maybe JR or Nurse, doesn't matter. Once they reopened it, I immediately began trying to clean up the thread. I sent Gaile a PM to let her know (as she was online reading, while I was deleting) that I was indeed trying to clean up the utter trash/flame/personal attacks. Gaile is an employee of ArenaNet and a "public face" that many of us recognize. She is not personally responsible for decisions that send players into raging or rejoicing. She's a messenger. We may not always be thrilled with the message, but it's not fair to crucify her over it. I profusely apologized because I, for one, was appalled at the horrendous behavior and immaturity of our posters. My 7yr old behaves better than that. Hell, I think my 5yr old probably beats you guys too. Honestly, I see a pretty dismal future for the HA section if the posters within cannot learn some impulse control and maturity.

JR · Jan 05, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

I initially deleted that thread last night. Someone else reopened it. Maybe JR or Nurse, doesn't matter. Once they reopened it, I immediately began trying to clean up the thread.

The thread was never reopened. I locked it initially after Nurse and Divine had attempted to clean it up - because I seemed to be the only one aware that the OP was entirely wrong. It was later deleted, at which point I undeleted it, because I thought the reactions to the percieved statement were quite powerfull alone to merit the thread still being viewable. It was still locked at this point. Later another mod decided it really was better off deleted, so this time I let it lie.

Etrik · Jan 06, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Because the majority of people who would probably end up recieving a ban are actually people who's opinions I value the mosty, oddly. I'd rather they just learnt to post maturely, instead of taking them out of debates.

However, if no other approach works then I don't have much choice.

That's why the first 2 types of bans are short in duration. If they don't learn from that, they never will. And it's the same, they're either perma-banned or you lock their threads because, even though they're on to something, they're starting flame wars.

I seriously feel for you, and respect you for putting up with the crap.

Gaile Gray · Jan 06, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Guru is the only online forum which has the real HA community, comprised mostly of devoted, experienced and good players, if somehow empotional posters. Ignoring the voice of this community caused the whole drama ourbreak. Its really not fair when Anet representatives post important info of forums like TGH, which is well known for its biased opinion about HA and HA community.

Those are utterly unacceptable comments, and they are provably untrue. Someone's misreading and inclination to flare is laid at our feet for "ignoring the community?" When we're here, every day? When feedback is read and relayed and discussed daily? I cannot simply let that sort of viewpoint go unchallenged, so do let me tell you a few facts: First, there is no "ignoring the voice of this community" going on, and our continued involvement here is proof of that. I was here, even amongst the absolutely awful commentary, to post on the day that the manufacturered brouhaha began. I was here, even while I wondered why a lot of the posts were still visible. I'm here now, facing inappropriate criticism as to the "fairness" of where I post.

Let's look at this comment: "It's not fair when Anet representatives post important info (elsewhere)." Stop and consider: We post a lot, across many forums both when we feel it is important and when it's not important at all, just to stay in touch. In the context of the thread that was turned into the week's major drama, the contention of "unfairness" and "important information" is entirely irrelevant, because the "information" I posted wasn't important! Someone turned my benign assurance -- "Don't worry, we won't change the numbers in HA and call it done" -- into the e-drama of the week. Others jumped on board. Even with many voices of reason saying, "Reading comprehension FTW, that is not what Gaile said" the pages grew, the flames increased, and the "Oh my God, they killed Kenny!" comments continued. And in fact, what I said, the "information" I shared, wasn't really important at all; there was actually no information in my comment beyond the assurance that the designers know what they're doing, and that they won't make a quick-fix error such as the one that the forum poster was concerned about.

There are plenty of online forums with members of the real HA community. This is one, but there are many, and while I understand and appreciate personal bias and pride in what one calls "home" in a forum sense, criticizing placement of threads by the dev team is completely counterproductive and in this case inaccurate on two levels. For if you want the real HA community, open your eyes and see that it is spread across many forums and is not gathered in one single English-language forum. After all, there is Europe.

European players are very active and very successful in HA, and our non-English forums have a vibrant community discussing HA every single day. They, too, are a major part of the real HA community, I'm sure you'll agree.

Lastly, when I have truly "important information" I do my best to get it to all communities in the very same timeframe. I think you can see that quite clearly in posting histories. If you have a question, at any time, Inde has my email contact information or you are welcome to PM me. But please do keep in mind that it is incumbant on the moderators and administrators to assure that there is an environment conducive to productive discussion in which I can post.

So a few points:

I commend and thank those who help with the forums and who clean up problem threads.
I suggest that posters think more reasonably and keep the pitchforks a little further from hand.
I question the value of leaving visible a read-only thread based on a falsehood, as it adds nothing whatever to this forum or to future discussions. What "historic value" does it serve? (Maybe at least add a comment in the initial post, so that people don't go off before reading the resolution?)
Criticism about "fairness" of dev posting, especially when it is based on a two false assumptions, is entirely inappropriate and, in fact, is quite unfair in return.
The community that plays HA is large, and we will continue to reach out to all parts of that community.
We will try our best to continue to assure that significant information releases are posted in a significant number of forums. I think the [Dev Update] threads are working quite well.

Sorry this is so long, but underneath a simple statement, I felt there is much that needed to be said.