Curse

Patccmoi · Jan 09, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Atm, i think most can agree that this is the ultimate form of non-elite energy management for casters unless all you have on your bar is 5E spells (and then you shouldn't need all that much energy management).

GoLE can potentially save up to 25E every 30s, which is .83E/s, and quite often will save you 20E/30s (15E + 10E spells), or .66E/s. You can compare that to something like Mantra of Recall, which at 16 Inspiration gives a net 16E every 20s, which is .8E/s. But that's an elite at level 16 in a line that is very unlikely to be your primary.

I think GoLE is simply too good at energy management for casters in general atm. BUT, for Elementalists, i think it's actually a very good skill that SHOULDN'T be nerfed. Non-elite energy management for elementalists is crucial if you want them to be efficient because the energy cost of their skills are all raised ridiculously because of energy storage. Before that change to GoLE, Eles had a really hard time using a non-energy management elite.

What i'd like to see changed about this spell is linking it to energy storage so that it's still good for other casters as an attributeless source of energy management but not outclassing everything else (including a good amount of elites). Here's the way i'd like to see the skill:

Glyph of Lesser Energy
Energy Storage
5/1/25

Your next 1..2 spells cost 15 less energy (breakpoint at 8 Energy Storage)

For non-eles, it only work for next spell, but cooldown is reduced to 25s. It can still save up to 10E/25s, which is still better than a level 16 Drain Enchantment or Energy Tap (ofc you don't have the side-effect, but you don't need any investment either).

For elementalist, it's a further buff to their non-elite energy management by reducing cooldown a bit. I really like the fact that with 1 atunement + GoLE, Eles can now actually use their damage elites and not be out of energy most of the game, so i wouldn't want that taken away.

But for classes that DON'T have buffed energy cost on spells and where spells are really worth 15E (like Aegis for example), i think that 2 spells GoLE is just too good.

Acidic Won · Jan 09, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

my mesmer will miss his GoLE... but its right.. for the game.. ZB infusers were strong too with GoLE...

beltran13579 · Jan 09, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

you are forgeting most people dont have 15 energy spells and the having to cast then the 5 energy it takes to cast but it still is a very good spell i dont bring it cause i never have energy problems

Divineshadows · Jan 09, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I do not think that GoLE is too powerful on a monk (unless the monk is using Aegis) for the following reasons:

- You tie down your secondary to elementalist. This means you give up the potential defense you could gain from your secondary by going Mo/A or Mo/W.

- Monks do not have 15 energy spells nor would they want on their bar (Aegis being the exception of course).

- If not running Aegis, then you have to use glyph of lesser predicitively believing that you'll be needing to use two 10 energy spells soon. If you aren't predicitive enough with it, then the one second activation of glyph of lesser can easily result in a death while you're activating it.

- Monks are often pressured into a situation where they need to cast a 10 energy spell followed immediately by a 5 energy spell following the glyph of lesser.

Aegis aside, the actual average energy management achieved by glyph of lesser energy on a monk is far less than those potential figures posted by the OP. Until the game contains some other decent non-elite energy management options aside from power drain, I say leave glyph of lesser alone. Buff inspiration please.

On support casters such as mesmers and necromancers, it is much easier to design skill bars and time your skill usage such that you approach that potential figure of 0.83 energy per second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Glyph of Lesser Energy
Energy Storage
5/1/25

Your next 1..2 spells cost 15 less energy (breakpoint at 8 Energy Storage)

How about leaving the 30 second recharge and making it:

Your next 2..4 spells cost 10 less energy (breakpoints at 8 and 13 energy storage).

Sound good?

Riotgear · Jan 09, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Your next 2..4 spells cost 10 less energy (breakpoints at 8 and 13 energy storage).

Sound good?

I don't think that'll solve the current problem and will probably create another. The current problem is largely that mesmers, who are generally loaded with 10e spells, can use it as a very consistent way to save at least 15e every 30 seconds. That'll still be the case if it's capped at 10.

As for creating a new one, a large part of being 15e is that it won't have its full effect. Saving 25 net energy is quite powerful, but requires ideal circumstances (namely, two back-to-back 15e skills) which doesn't always manifest in reality. 10e over 3 spells, or especially 4, could easily result in unbalanced builds centered around eles pumping spells out of their secondary without needing to run an energy elite.

Ultimately, I think what they should do is something like reduce the recharge and leave it as one 15e reduction. Its main purpose was to push out some inefficient spell (i.e. lightning orb, DOT nukes) without burning out on energy. It would still serve that role if it were available more often. Attunements already exist to push out filler abilities at a decent rate (and all they need to do is make those fillers not suck).

Another possibility could be to have it reduce the cost of the next spell that costs 15e or more, rather than simply the next spell, making it a bit less unwieldy.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 09, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

They need to buff inspiration if they take that skill away from mesmers.

Saider maul · Jan 09, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

why cry over a skill thats gone thru 2 campaigns and working in the third.

They will doubtfully buff inspiration sense they recently nerfed almost every inspiration related Emanagment skill.

I feel to solve the constant problem of bickering they should aline it with energy storage and scale it from 0..2 and reset the recharge on it.

This way only those who need it ( elementalists ) are the only ones to use it.

HolyHawk · Jan 09, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Inspiration needs to be restored, the glyph is powerfull yes, but only because inspiration e-management skills are crappy now.

Patccmoi · Jan 10, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

I fully agree that Inspiration needs a buff. There's no doubt about it really.

But i don't think it's fine to leave GoLE as it is now (even with previous Inspiration state, GoLE would still in its current state be superior to all of it except a few elites at very high insp) just because inspiration is subpar. Inspiration should be fixed, but i think it still leaves GoLE as too good considering it's attributeless when compared to more or less any other option. And it's not like /E has no useful utility for offensive casters out of it. Things like Gale are just good on anyone that can afford it and requires little investment.

And no, it might not be as good on monks in general (out of Aegis as you said, and actually on Aegis-ZB monks it's pretty damn good), but i don't see why it should be balanced for monk use either. Monks already got all of the Inspiration line nerfed because they're too efficient when their emanagement is too high. Don't think for 1 second that iHex and Drain Enchantment were nerfed cause the devs thought 'damn, that Mesmer has way too much energy to throw Diversion with Drain Enchant' or that they thought Mantra of Recall/EDrain were too good on anything but monks...

It's fine that some EManagement isn't designed for monk use, it's how it risks being nerfed the less. I so wish that they just made things like Drain Enchant 2s cast with good stats so that it's still really fine to use on Mesmers, ok on other offensive casters, but Monks wouldn't want it anymore, instead of destroying it for everyone by making it 30s recharge and less gain so that monks wouldn't use it so much.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 10, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Buff Inspiration, nerf this (a little).

Phades · Jan 10, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

All of the glyphs should be tied to energy storage. Mainly to help curtail Gole from being too attractive as a secondary profession booster, but also to allow the less desireable ele glyphs to become more useful similar to the inspiration line is.

While the current state of the inspiration line is not anywhere near as efficent as it was before, the main problem is at how multi function virtually all of the skills are. People have been pointing out some flaws in newer skills, which is a result of overal skill compression, but mesmer skills have always had that kind of compression. Two of the easiest buffs to the inspiration line ANET could do, would be to buff ether signet's recharge time to be more viable, but still conditional on current energy as a emergency tool and increase the energy return on mantra of recall or reduce its recharge slightly. The rest of the line isnt perfect currently, but even small nudges in it cause large ripples, like the last update showed.

Personally i think ANET needs to decide which is the primary effect that each of those mesmer skills is supposed to be and which is the "bonus" effect, otherwise it will most likely continue to tilt back and forth in further updates.

Symbol · Jan 10, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I like Patccmoi's change. Keeps it potent for elementalists and the recharge reduction makes it at least somewhat interesting for secondaries as well, provided you're casting 15E spells.

Energy storage needs some purpose now. Having some useful skills linked to it would be good.

HolyHawk · Jan 10, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I don't think there's a need to change it to e-storage, basically because secondary professions can use it to enable usage of higher energy cost spells without being useless while energy recharges. We don't see this often, but chiblains would probably have some strong use, so would panic, balthazar's aura, and the list goes on; chaossanctuary was carrying a ward on his monk, just because he had glyph. When I play me/e, I can always fit cry of frustration knowing that I won't even need inspiration anymore. Why? Because inspiration sux right now, even being the energy related attribute over all professions. So no, don't link it anywhere else, don't make it progressive in any way; I'm fine with a minimum 5 energy cost. If it is too good just because it's a non atributte skill, then change wild blow, dash, etc.

Etrik · Jan 10, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Buff inspiration, leave GoLE alone. Eles suck as is, any class can out-dps them (except those damn squirtgunners, but they get to 0e real fast..)

JR · Jan 10, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

Inspiration needs to be restored, the glyph is powerfull yes, but only because inspiration e-management skills are crappy now.

That's rubbish. Am I going to spec 14 Dom and 13 Fast Casting because I don't need to spec into my energy management, or have to split further into Inspiration? Even were Inspiration as powerfull as it used to be GoLE is still the better choice if you don't need your secondary.

HolyHawk · Jan 10, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

You are probably right, but I cannot help to think that mesmer don't have or need mesmer elites anymore, and blinding surge is also contributing for going me/e, plus inspiration being weak. There's just no better option, and I'd rather buff other skills than nerf this one.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 10, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

While this skill obviously needs a nerf, it needs to remain as viable as possible on /Es. There is no competitive caster build in this game that can get by with only 4 pips, and there are so few non-elite energy management options that I'd hate to see another lost to ele primaries. Eles already have the best energy management available, and other caster classes need non-elite e-management just as much as eles do.

I think reducing the 15 reduction to 10 would be fair, possibly with a slight (~5s) reduction to the recharge. With those numbers the skill offers slightly more than 1.5 pips of regen, while the current numbers allow almost 3 pips. That seems like a fair nerf, and puts GoLE below Power Drain for total energy returned.

Phades · Jan 10, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Problem with that is that the 10e change is more useful to non-elementalists, which wouldnt be hardly a nerf for them at all and the reduction time would end up being a overal buff for them and a nerf only to ele primaries. Its really the secondaries abusing it with the double use per activation and no attribution investment that is what is out of whack.

AC10 · Jan 10, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Here's my idea for a more balanced GoLE:

5/1/25

For 15 seconds, your next 2 spells cost 5 energy.

Now it's less of a benefit to use it for 2 10en spells (saving 5 energy overall) but still not too bad for 15/10 (10en saved) and good for elementalists using 25e skills (up to 35en saved).

Patccmoi · Jan 10, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC10

Here's my idea for a more balanced GoLE:

5/1/25

For 15 seconds, your next 2 spells cost 5 energy.

Now it's less of a benefit to use it for 2 10en spells (saving 5 energy overall) but still not too bad for 15/10 (10en saved) and good for elementalists using 25e skills (up to 35en saved).

I don't dislike that idea, but i wonder if it wouldn't be just too good for Eles. I mean, you could save up to 35E/25s which is truly elite emanagement level.

Think of an Ele using Fire Atune and throwing 2 x 25E spells after GoLE. Those 2 25E spells end up giving 18 (or 16, not sure) E back cause of atunement and Glyph + 2 of them = 15E. So you gain energy throwing 2 x 25E spells... dunno, seems quite powerful. Becomes nearly as good as Glyph of Energy for 25E spells (ofc you don't have no exhaustion).

And Squidget, i don't agree with nerfing it for Ele primaries, which is really what would happen by making it 2 next spells = 10E. I think that Ele primaries NEED it as good as it is now if not stronger to be efficient because they have a lot of 15-25E spells that aren't truly worth that much (but are fine with GoLE if you don't use an emanagement elite).

It could possibly be 2 next spells cost 10..14..15E less though, scaling in Energy Storage. If it was 5/1/25, that could be worth it.