Curse

Bankai · Dec 28, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Alright, some post coming up.

I was just reading this, and something caught my eye. Someone said the counters were really obscure. And that made me think back to the thread "Melee is too easily countered". I wrote quite some post on the difference between Melee and Caster shutdown, but I only just realized why SF is giving so many problems.

First, let's look at GW skills from a really objective point of view. You have melee and spells. Melee and Casters. Melee only has offensive Melee. There is no such thing as defensive melee (hit someone to heal them? Hell yeah!). Casters have offensive and defensive casters. Defensive casters prot and heal, offensive casters hex, damage, commit necrophilia, etcetera.

Now, let's look at the ways you can shut down these three types. For Melee, there's weakness (not really a shut down, but still), cripple, blind (best shutdown), and some lame hexes. Casters have Daze, hexes and interrupts. Now, you'll see I said Casters, since they have the same shutdown. And that's the crucial mistake. Since monks are so important, there can NEVER be as hard of a shutdown skill for casters as, for example, Blinding surge. Since Monks are so important, 1 single skill will kill all teams. Therefore, Casters have less viable shutdown than melee.

However, this has never been proved a problem. Monk shutdown is not (extensively) needed, since most of the time you can out-damage them. Sure, a gale and some mesmer hexes are nice, but there isn't a lot of monk shutdown needed. However, noone has also needed effective offensive caster shutdown. Let's look at the FotMs (from the top of my head).
Spirit spam
Iway
Vimway
Bloodspike
Smite
Obs flame spike
SF

The first thing you'll notice is that there's effectively only 3 caster FotMs (and a hybrid, Smite. Talking about AoE smite here). However, the 2 which are old, are spikes. And spikes are really no problem. There's no need for a hard shutdown for spikes. Yes, a gale might be needed, or a shock, to interrupt the spike. But shutdown is not really needed. However, SF is the first caster pressure FotM. And Pressure DOES need shutdown. Pressure casting is comparable to melee. Without any melee shutdown melee is freaking deadly. However, Caster shutdown isn't viable to implement because monks, and all teams with them, will be screwed over.

Relambrien · Dec 29, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

*snip*

Very insightful, I get the point. People are crying for better counters to SF, but any counters to SF would also be shutdown to Monks, since they're both casters. And if Monks are shut down, every single type of team that uses them is screwed. So implement enough viable caster shutdown and you change the metagame so dramatically that Monks no longer exist in such play...And yet the game needs some solution to the problem that is SF. Not necessarily because it's too powerful, but because it's being used too much, and the metagame has stagnated. So there needs to be some way to eliminate SF rampancy (umm...that a word or not?) without destroying the skill (just look at Energizing Finale...), and yet the changes can't drastically affect the remainder of casters. This leaves two solutions: 1) buff a bunch of other skills to make SF seem less powerful in comparison, or 2) nerf SF to bring its apparent power down to that of other skills.

Riotgear · Dec 29, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

People are crying for better counters to SF, but any counters to SF would also be shutdown to Monks, since they're both casters.

I'd actually say that a large or powerful variety of skill-based defensive counters to caster damage would be a bad thing in the long run. In order for that form of damage to stay viable, it would have to be balanced against those counters, and that means you have to bring those counters or you're hosed. The more counters players are forced to bring, the worse build variety gets.

Teams are already forced to bring aegis, wards, snares, hexes, blind, etc. just to mitigate melee output, because melee damage is balanced around those counters existing.

Elemental damage has a potentially good spot as a less-versatile but perhaps more reliable form of damage than pure melee, and could be a good way to keep the damage flowing while you're waiting for aegis, WaM, or whatever to wear off.

The thing is that the most obvious counter to a team overloading on casters already exists: They're all extremely low-armor. Due to several other factors (like pain trains eating unacceptable amounts of splash damage), that isn't quite manifesting as it should, but it's probably the best thing to balance counters around.

EDIT -- Clarified.

deadmonkey4u · Dec 29, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The more counters players are forced to bring, the worse build variety gets.

Agreed. Out of around 30 gvg matches I played near the end of last season the variety was pretty bad. It was basically Searing Flames(some with thumpers) and a few spike builds.

Id say a slight SF nerf is needed. Something that will bring it down to a level where its still viable, but I won't be seeing it in around 50% of the matches.

shardfenix · Dec 29, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Searing Flames: 119 damage every 3 seconds = 39.667 fire dps
Glowing Gaze: 53 damage every 6 seconds = 8.833 fire dps
(39.667 x 6) + (8.833 x 6) = 291 fire dps + 14 burning = 305 dps.
That's against 60 AL. For reference, Protective Spirit will cut off 45% of that as well.
Yes, there are other factors...but where the hell did you get 1230 from?

It's in another thread if you wanna hit the search button. The main reason it came to 1230+ was because I assumed it was hitting three targets, which usually happens when there's a human being who knows how AoE works and how to abuse it (what are the chances).

Against one target

in 10 seconds, the ele will cast SF, glowing gaze, SF, liquid flame, SF, glowing gaze, wait, SF, glowing gaze, SF.
The first and fourth or fifth SF set the burning, so 2 of them will deal no damage.
that leaves 3 SF, 1 LF, and 3 GG, plus -7 degen over 10 seconds.
10 seconds of burning = 21 damage per second = 210 damage.
3 searing flames at fire 16 = 357
3 GG at fire 16 = 159 (i think it's 53 per)
1 liquid flame = 119
119+159+357+210 = 845

which comes out to 84.5 damage per second, on a single SF ele.

When you add 5 other SF eles, all of their SF will do damage, so each additional ele does 108.3 DPS instead of 84.5
84.5 + (108.3*5) = 626 damage per second.

So even when 6 eles are only affecting one target with SF, it is still enough to kill someone each second. Now, take into account SF's area, which is listed "nearby" but that's bullcrap, we all know it fills wards.

1 target: 626 damage per second.
2 targets: 1252 damage per second.
3 targets: 1878 damage per second. <---most likely case
4 targets: 2504 damage per second.
5 targets: 3130 damage per second.
6 targets: 3756 damage per second.
7 targets: Not likely, but it's 4382 DPS.
8 targets: Ok, nobody is THAT stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

New York's weather is very cold, but your flaming keeps me warm!

I always love warming someone's heart.

Divineshadows · Dec 29, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

[*]in 10 seconds, the ele will cast SF, glowing gaze, SF, liquid flame, SF, glowing gaze, wait, SF, glowing gaze, SF.

9 spells in 10 seconds. Not even a mesmer can pull that off. Spells have a 3/4 second aftercast each. I'm not sure the exact amount of time that spell sequence you listed would take, but my guess is it is somewhere between 16 and 18 seconds. This throws off all the math you use following.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

When you add 5 other SF eles, all of their SF will do damage, so each additional ele does 108.3 DPS instead of 84.5
84.5 + (108.3*5) = 626 damage per second.

Aside from these figures already being inflated, I love how you've managed to count the burning degen damage again from each elementalist. This inflates your figures even further.

Riotgear · Dec 29, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

in 10 seconds, the ele will cast SF, glowing gaze, SF, liquid flame, SF, glowing gaze, wait, SF, glowing gaze, SF.

SF with 40% HCT/HSR is an average 0.8 second cast and 1.6 second recharge, meaning an average of one cast every 2.4 seconds. 119 / 2.4 = 49.5833 dps assuming every single one does damage.

Liquid Flame = 0.8 cast 12 recharge, once every 12.8 seconds. 119 / 12.8 = 9.2969.

Glowing Gaze = 0.8 cast 4 recharge, once every 4.8 seconds. 53 / 4.8 = 11.0417.

The most amount of damage an SF ele can deal to one target is 70 damage per second, which requires every spell as soon as its on recharge, with no time wasted for GoLE or burning re-application. In other words, that is an extremely generous figure.

Remember also that 11.0417 of that can not splash, and 9.2969 of it has a good chance of not splashing. For the sake of hyperbole, let's assume Liquid Flame always splashes. That's roughly 59 splashable DPS and 11 non-splashable.

Quote:

10 seconds of burning = 21 damage per second = 210 damage.

One pip is two health per second, not three, yeesh. Burning is 14 dps.

You also included this in your damage figure per caster and multiplied by target count, which doesn't work because burning is not self-effective. That's basically implying that 6 eles can do 126 DPS per target with burning, a.k.a. 63 pips of degen. Who needs Reaper's Mark when you can stack burning 9 times on a target and ignore the degen limit, lawl!?

Let's be a little more generous and assume that three targets are always getting hit because they are in fact too retarded to scatter, ever.

59 DPS splash x 3 targets x 6 casters = 1062
14 DPS burning x 3 targets = 42 dps
11 DPS non-splash x 6 casters = 66

So it's 1170-ish if it persistantly hits three targets, under super-optimal conditions. Needless to say, these super-optimal conditions are a far cry from reality, and are still around 700 DPS short of your estimate.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 29, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

It's in another thread if you wanna hit the search button. The main reason it came to 1230+ was because I assumed it was hitting three targets, which usually happens when there's a human being who knows how AoE works and how to abuse it (what are the chances).

Against one target

in 10 seconds, the ele will cast SF, glowing gaze, SF, liquid flame, SF, glowing gaze, wait, SF, glowing gaze, SF.
The first and fourth or fifth SF set the burning, so 2 of them will deal no damage.
that leaves 3 SF, 1 LF, and 3 GG, plus -7 degen over 10 seconds.
10 seconds of burning = 21 damage per second = 210 damage.
3 searing flames at fire 16 = 357
3 GG at fire 16 = 159 (i think it's 53 per)
1 liquid flame = 119
119+159+357+210 = 845

which comes out to 84.5 damage per second, on a single SF ele.

When you add 5 other SF eles, all of their SF will do damage, so each additional ele does 108.3 DPS instead of 84.5
84.5 + (108.3*5) = 626 damage per second.

So even when 6 eles are only affecting one target with SF, it is still enough to kill someone each second. Now, take into account SF's area, which is listed "nearby" but that's bullcrap, we all know it fills wards.

1 target: 626 damage per second.
2 targets: 1252 damage per second.
3 targets: 1878 damage per second. <---most likely case
4 targets: 2504 damage per second.
5 targets: 3130 damage per second.
6 targets: 3756 damage per second.
7 targets: Not likely, but it's 4382 DPS.
8 targets: Ok, nobody is THAT stupid.

I always love warming someone's heart.

ROFL at your lack of understanding of game mechanics. I could say that one monk does 5049 DPS with his wand in my own little fairy world, but that doesn't mean that it's true.

Manfred · Dec 30, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

ROFL at your lack of coherent argument.

Well, anyhow, I agree that SF is pretty darn good. But there are plenty of counters. Migraine, Diversion, Distracting Shot, Signet of Humility, Savage Shot, Shock, Distracting Blow, Gale, Critical Chop, Web of Disruption, Disrupting Thow, Temple Strike, I could really go on all day.

But then again, Prot Spirit nerfs SF the best, and why mess with success?

Gae Meetgon · Dec 31, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Well... I have just been reading about a nifty lil spell called searing flame. I can't believe how people are reacting to this. So it was all fun and games to beat down the fire ele to near extinction and non playability, but let them be enabled to fight back and out come the nerf riders. I like my fire ele and was very disheartened when they nerfed the AoE spells a while back. Everyone slapped themselves on the back and thought that was great with one less prof to guard against.. I couldn't buy a group and had to try a play with henchies, finally giving up but not deleting the ele and hoping for fair play later.. Well it's here and look at you all... put them back in their places you say.. Well I hope they leave it alone.. perservere and move on people.. the eles had to.. and those who have played them know it's the truth.. NO flame intended but give it a rest and let us enjoy being damage dealers again.. nough said

Skuld · Dec 31, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Wrong thread Gae, this is SF in GvG :]

Deleet · Dec 31, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

It's in another thread if you wanna hit the search button. The main reason it came to 1230+ was because I assumed it was hitting three targets, which usually happens when there's a human being who knows how AoE works and how to abuse it (what are the chances).

Against one target

in 10 seconds, the ele will cast SF, glowing gaze, SF, liquid flame, SF, glowing gaze, wait, SF, glowing gaze, SF.
The first and fourth or fifth SF set the burning, so 2 of them will deal no damage.
that leaves 3 SF, 1 LF, and 3 GG, plus -7 degen over 10 seconds.
10 seconds of burning = 21 damage per second = 210 damage.
3 searing flames at fire 16 = 357
3 GG at fire 16 = 159 (i think it's 53 per)
1 liquid flame = 119
119+159+357+210 = 845

which comes out to 84.5 damage per second, on a single SF ele.

When you add 5 other SF eles, all of their SF will do damage, so each additional ele does 108.3 DPS instead of 84.5
84.5 + (108.3*5) = 626 damage per second.

So even when 6 eles are only affecting one target with SF, it is still enough to kill someone each second. Now, take into account SF's area, which is listed "nearby" but that's bullcrap, we all know it fills wards.

1 target: 626 damage per second.
2 targets: 1252 damage per second.
3 targets: 1878 damage per second. <---most likely case
4 targets: 2504 damage per second.
5 targets: 3130 damage per second.
6 targets: 3756 damage per second.
7 targets: Not likely, but it's 4382 DPS.
8 targets: Ok, nobody is THAT stupid.

I always love warming someone's heart.

This is why we need a Shardfenix fan club.

HolyHawk · Jan 01, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Fire tree has 6 elite skills. Something must be wrong with either the other 5, or this very one. I'd vote for a "nerf" simple because people don't even need to give some tought on which skill to choose; SF, compared to the others, and as it is now is pretty strong. I would like to ponder between SF and the others.

Blow Up Doll · Jan 01, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

TBH all that is required is an increase on recharge time...10s sounds good to me...Still viable but not so spammable.

Effigy · Jan 01, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

10sec recharge is too much I think. 3-5 seconds would be more reasonable.

Xpl0iter · Jan 02, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

3-5???? sec recharge?

Symbol · Jan 02, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

LAWL at the retarded suggestions posted here. 5 or 10s recharge? What on earth are you people smoking?

Quote:

Fire tree has 6 elite skills. Something must be wrong with either the other 5, or this very one. I'd vote for a "nerf" simple because people don't even need to give some tought on which skill to choose; SF, compared to the others, and as it is now is pretty strong. I would like to ponder between SF and the others.

Yes, something is wrong with the other 5. They're pretty bad.

drekmonger · Jan 02, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Yes, something is wrong with the other 5. They're pretty bad.

Mind Burn is a decent elite. Mind Blast and Starburst are excellent elites. It's just that they've been overshadowed by the Searing Flames, an obviously overpowered elite.

I'll agree that Savannah Heat and Double Dragon aren't all that great but that doesn't justify keeping Searing Flames at it's current level of utility.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Jan 02, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manfred

ROFL at your lack of coherent argument.

Well, anyhow, I agree that SF is pretty darn good. But there are plenty of counters. Migraine, Diversion, Distracting Shot, Signet of Humility, Savage Shot, Shock, Distracting Blow, Gale, Critical Chop, Web of Disruption, Disrupting Thow, Temple Strike, I could really go on all day.

But then again, Prot Spirit nerfs SF the best, and why mess with success?

Migraine cannot be counted as a counter if it's not in a hex build, savage shot cannot be counted as a counter because it's a 3 second shutdown (assuming the ranger never misses through aegis, never interrupts too late, etc etc) Shock is not a counter, because it's a 2 second shutdown, distracting blow isn't a counter for the same reasons as savage shot, gale isn't a counter because it's a 3 second shutdown, critical chop isn't a counter because you don't always crit, and even if you do interrupt it's a 3 second shutdown, web of disruption can possible get two interrupts in, but even with that it's not enough, disrupting throw (wtf) you need a condition on the target, then it becomes just like savage shot and distracting blow, temple strike (seriously, wtf) is just a f'ing stupid suggestion I'm not even going to explain why it doesn't work.

It's hot in South Carolina, but your stupidity is giving me the chills.

Oh and for prot spirit, that's all great as long as the searing doesn't have the brains to switch targets...

I could really go on all day.

Antheus · Jan 02, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

which comes out to 84.5 damage per second, on a single SF ele.

Apart from degen being calculated incorrectly, the above damage only applies to AL 60 targets.

Most of your targets will be running at least a bit higher armor, resulting in the damage being scaled to 80%-50% of the figures listed.

So, depending on the target, we're in 40-70 dps range in perfect conditions.

And let's not even assume that at least one burning gets removed, at least one SoA/prot spirit is put on target, or that players scatter, etc...