Curse

Mouse at Large · Nov 03, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Anyone tried putting Backfire on a Searing spammer....?

Xasew · Nov 03, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Anyone tried putting Backfire on a Searing spammer....?

Backfire will only trigger once or if the enemy is really slow, twice at best. After that he waits for it to wear off or for it to be removed.

Symbol · Nov 03, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

The synergy the skill has with paragons just makes it entirely broken. With energizing finales and Aria's of Zeal going around the energy management on these characters isn't that problematic at all. Not too mention that 'they're on fire' provides the entire team with some very nifty defense.

Have you thought that, perhaps, that problem lies with the paragon? Energizing finale, for one, sounds like it's FAR more likely to be a problem than searing flames, since it's probably worth three or four pips by itself.

Xpl0iter · Nov 03, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Searing flames is a very decent damage option now that an Ele has got. The thing is, i wont consider this as a global build that works every where. There are a few areas where you definetly need to go back to your old prophicy type skill build which does heavy kd. But that is just my opinion. I noticed that in a mission and hence, mentioned it over here.

As far as PVP, goes, people have listed quite a few counters. I am just astonished over the fact that so many people jumped in just because an ele got a bit of a viable elite to damage with. I just wonder where these people were when rangers were spiking.

SF reminds any of you of IWAY, Touch Rangers and VIMWAY? 'nough said!

Patrograd · Nov 03, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Have you thought that, perhaps, that problem lies with the paragon? Energizing finale, for one, sounds like it's FAR more likely to be a problem than searing flames, since it's probably worth three or four pips by itself.

Thats pretty much what I said in my last post, and its who our warriors were training for the most part.

Its the synergy this skll has with certain others that imbalances it, chiefly "They're on fire" and blazing finale (which is on its own quite an uber skill). Paragon's have brilliant energy management and insta cast shouts and are largely invulnerable to mesmers as a result (diversion hurts but thats it) and warrior standard armour making them hard targets for melee too

The type of build using two fire eles, two warriors and a utility slot (BIP necro usually) is perfectly manageable, because given smart positioning you're only talking about two or so people on fire at once.

Give these boys a paragon and suddenly its five or six on fire.

Heal party that if you can

[edit]

the reason why searing flames is so much stronger than any other skill when linked to "They're on fire" is that with two fire eles you can effectively simulataneously permanently shut down two enemy damage sources while applying massive pressure to them. As I said before, push and hold at the same time. They're on fire basically acts like an unstrippable, uninterruptable none elite life sheath that takes one skill slot, but only in conjunction with searing flames, it is otherwise pretty meh

Symbol · Nov 03, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

That's a difficult problem to fix. Searing flames is largely balanced around the fact that to power it you need lots of fragile energy management. There are other weaknesses (skill shutdown is the big one), but that's probably the easiest way to attack it. So I agree it's broken if you can stick a paragon in your build and not have to worry about your attunement getting stripped or your glowing gaze interrupted and so on.

But nerfing searing flames won't accomplish anything, it'll just mean that people will use paragons to power some other offense, or worse defense. I can't imagine how boring games would be if we have (say) teams with two Mo/A blighters running around with 7-8 pips of energy.

So I definitely think that energizing finale and maybe anthem of zeal need looking at.

"You're on fire" is a difficult one. My thought is that it wouldn't be such a problem without paragon energy management as well, if you've denied them the ability to spam searing flames, you've also removed much of the effectiveness of this shout. And, as you say, it's pretty mediocre without mass burning.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 03, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I can definitely agree that certain Paragon skills are a problem. The energy-boosting skills always seemed overpowered to me, with Nightfall adding the possibility of offensive casters that are actually scary. It's not just this build, all kinds of builds get supercharged by the Paragon.

I don't actually mind the idea of the Paragon boosting other people's energy - that's going to make a whole lot of elites more viable, because casters who previously had to take elite energy management won't anymore. However, it needs to be at a reasonable level.

shardfenix · Nov 03, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

The sad thing about searing flames builds is that you can put nothing in your optional slots and still pwn half the groups you face.
/nerfbat time

ToxicWasted · Nov 03, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

THE ultimate counter: Winter! As Searing Flames only triggers when you take Fire Damage, you could convert it to cold damage, couldn't you?

JR · Nov 04, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToxicWasted

THE ultimate counter: Winter! As Searing Flames only triggers when you take Fire Damage, you could convert it to cold damage, couldn't you?

Read skill descriptions more carefully.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 04, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

The sad thing about searing flames builds is that you can put nothing in your optional slots and still pwn half the groups you face.
/nerfbat time

And why do you pwn them? Because they aren't use to putting anti-caster measures in their builds and actually using them to shutdown eles as a viable threat. I mean, people have been putting hex stacks, cripshots, traps, aegis chains, wards, and millions of blinds in their builds for a long time to counter warrior pressure. Now people just have to also pack ways to counter elementalists as well, now that they are a viable battlefield threat.

Also, people don't even really need to pack that many more counters. One well-timed diversion or a couple dshots on key skills can easily shut down that ele. People just need to get use to the idea.

The most I would nerf searing flames IMO is possibly a small damage nerf and adding a couple sec to the recharge.

Symbol · Nov 04, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

I saw a fairly basic dual warrior build (run by [Cel]) with a dom mesmer totally own a team with three searing flame eles. Neither team was particularly low ranked (Rank 15 vs Rank 32). Diversion + shatter enchant was just brutal, and spiritual pain taking down the EW didn't help. I don't know why people are coming up with these outlandish counters (winter O_o) when everything you need is already at hand-at least until recently.

I think the game has just been skewed so far over to the melee heavy side of the spectrum that it's going to take a little while for it to swing back a bit.

ToxicWasted · Nov 04, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Read skill descriptions more carefully.

You're right, doesn't work.. This is skill is retardedly overpowered.

Patrograd · Nov 04, 2006, 11:32 AM // 11:32

It is IMO the right paragon that makes this build

Last night we played a couple of searing teams and got easy wins. One had a paragon which made us wary for a minute, but he was built terribly imo, no motivation, all leadership and spear mastery stuff, no energy buffs for his eles, no watch yourself, no blazing finale. Easy rating points.

TMWNN · Nov 04, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

yeah paragons will get you raped if you dont shut them down, id rate them up there with mesmers tbh.

Id exect we will soon start seeing more of the paragon counter skills as the NF meta develops.

Symbol · Nov 04, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

You're right, doesn't work.. This is skill is retardedly overpowered.

It's "retardedly overpowered" because a counter that no one would ever run doesn't work. O_o

Stealth Rider · Nov 04, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

It's "retardedly overpowered" because a counter that no one would ever run doesn't work. O_o

While counters that people *already* run *do* work...

Mouse at Large · Nov 04, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

My last word on this. I'm an ele player - mostly PvE, some limited PvP, and I say good job to Anet for finally giving eles properly viable damage/pressure skills.

They are not (IMHO) overpowered or deserving of the "nerfbat" simply because some less inventive players can't come up with suitable strategies to counter them. As another poster quite rightly said, all the skills a reasonably proficient player needs to deal with new ele skills are available. It's simply a case of adjusting to the changes.

I suspect that those complaining the loudest are players who have entered a comfort zone where they expect success with established builds/teams and can't bear to have their worldview of how various professions interact challenged.

I prefer to take the side of others who accept this as a (refreshing) development and will adapt and evolve to solve the new challenge.

No doubt there will be other changes and skill balances in the future, but I'll be severely disappointed if a few Luddites manage to persuade Anet to spoil the improved ele functionality.

Pace

fatboyslimerr · Nov 04, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Searing Flames is stupid so the solution should therefore be stupid

Mantra of Flame... gg

Symbol · Nov 05, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

One thing I noticed that may exacerbate "the problem" is that attunements are bugged for 15E spells. They give you back 6E instead of the 5E they should, which makes energy management for SF a little easier. Of course it hardly matters when your attunement is down but there it is...

A.net really needs better QA. This is, what, the third screwup regarding attunements (first they subtraced one from the energy gained, then they rounded up, but didn't add one, now it works properly for everthing BUT 15E spells, wtf!)