Curse

Symbol · Nov 01, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Every counter to searing flames is something that is already common and widely applicable:
1) Enchantment removal
2) Monk prots
3) Heal Party
4) Extinguish
5) Diversion
6) Distracting Shot

You don't even need specialist caster hate to defeat it, only intelligent use of the tools you already have and attention to your positioning.

Searing flames requires devoting a large fraction of your bar to emanagement, leaving very little for utility, self healing, or self defense, on a character with paper armor. I don't think it's unreasonable for the payoff to be commensurable with the sacrifice.

Stealth Rider · Nov 01, 2006, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Oh...my...G-d...an Ele that can actually pressure sufficiently???Impossible I say! nerf! nerf! nerf! NERF ALREADY!!!!!

/sarcasm

Honestly, as i recall Anet's origional intent for Fire eles was AoE high damage. Well, now that's what they are. Working as intended i say (SWG inside joke, meh).

Riotgear · Nov 01, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Monk = Extinguish

Paragon = Cautery Sig+Remedy Sig

I'm sure there are others....

Mass condition removal isn't really great when it's being spammed, especially when it RELIES on having several people spamming a target with something that will just reapply the condition if it's not there. Just stagger the Glowing casts.

This whole thing's slightly amusing though. People are in a panic because eles are nuking them to death. Never thought I'd see the day.

Sephir Demange · Nov 01, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

First of all, intelligent enchant removal, coupled with intelligent warrior spirit hunting counters this build very quickly. Though, if a very intelligent team runs it, you'll obviously have a hard time, but that is true of almost every high pressure build. Break down their offense, and crack their defense, that can be done with midline shutting down their midline, and the warriors training their backline. Intelligent kiting of thumpers is thrown in and it's goodnight sweet prince. However, in general regards to the build: it's great easy pressure, very simplistic to run and can crack teams in no time, fun imo, but I think it'll fall out of favor as people shift to counter it's growing popularity.

Tainek · Nov 01, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Mass condition removal isn't really great when it's being spammed, especially when it RELIES on having several people spamming a target with something that will just reapply the condition if it's not there. Just stagger the Glowing casts.

This whole thing's slightly amusing though. People are in a panic because eles are nuking them to death. Never thought I'd see the day.

even better, people are panicing about being killed by Fire eles xD

tbh it depends on where they are, in GvG, my guild steamrolls them, but we have a lot of issues in HA, where we HAVE to engage them in small areas, and cant spread out well

so far we've been running ward against harm and crossing out fingers in HA, but dual mes dual warriors will be usefull in HoH Again

Drewfense · Nov 01, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

<3 eles atm. It is really nice to see eles using elites other than eprod/second wind. I have played several searing flame teams and it wasn't that bad. It was pressure, but it wasn't OMFG NERF NOW pressure. Regretfully anet will probably send the ele back to nerfed oblivion at the end of the season QQ

Edit: My experience has been in GvG, in tombs I am sure it is overpowered...overpowered because if heroway is anything like henchies in PvE, they probably ball up and take all the AoE fun right in the face. If that is the case (a lot of ifs) then it is heros that have to be removed from PvP, not eles.

Tortoise · Nov 01, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Searing flames has managed to make my 'shortlist' for the possibly unbalanced in a very short amount of time. So far I haven't fought it with a build that was designed to incorporate an ele threat (still running the same old pre-NF build unadapted) so I'm not sure how it plays out when you're a bit more prepared and know what you're dealing with.

The numbers are kind off scary though. If you can keep it up it's 50 DPS even if you only hit one guy. If you encount for some 'collateral' damage the skill gets incredibly strong very quick. And we're not even mentioning the slaughter it creates at VoD...

I haven't cast judgement yet but it's definitly a skill to look out for.

Drewfense · Nov 01, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I would sooner say nerf Rampage as One or Spoil Victor before Searing Flames.

Mouse at Large · Nov 01, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I'm with Stealth Rider on this. Finally eles get a skill that actually creates realistic damage/pressure and immediately the nerf/"unbalanced" whispering campaign starts.

For too long eles have been reduced to utility healers and flag runners. Now at least they have a slightly wider choice of roles in PvP. Get used to it, adapt and move on.

Searing Flames shouldn't be nerfed or called "unbalanced" just because it disturbs the orthodox view of eles. I'm sure players are intelligent enough to come up with counters. The metagame will adapt and evolve as it has many times before.

around · Nov 01, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

I would sooner say nerf Rampage as One or Spoil Victor before Searing Flames.

Spoil Victor :S?

Drewfense · Nov 01, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Spoil Victor :S?

To quote myself from another thread because I am to lazy to write something new

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Spoil Victor is sick and needs to be nerfed...If you coordinate a hex build correctly, it becomes a 100 damage scourge healing that lasts 30+ Seconds. Not enough? Put it on the warriors and it becomes a spiteful spirit from hell dealing 200 damage on a spike.

Summary:
100 damage + attacks and spells + 30+ second duration + 10 second recharge = horribly broken.

Spoil Victor is not a mainstream elite yet so the imbalance isn't as clear as Rampage as One or other elites. Degen hex builds (Cow's migraine build for example) were the fad at the end of last season to counter oflame, then everyone got uber worried about hex removal and they disappeared (before Victor got an uber boost). Now the meta has moved back to conditions because of nightfall (and in general people go towards rangers and conditions when the meta isn't yet defined) and hex removal is being dropped for dual extinguishes, RC, and such. As the meta becomes more physical attack based, the timing is almost perfect for a chaos hex build (FnlD's Bigger Big Build). In such a situation, Spoil Victor would be devastating.

Symbol · Nov 01, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Searing Flames shouldn't be nerfed or called "unbalanced" just because it disturbs the orthodox view of eles. I'm sure players are intelligent enough to come up with counters. The metagame will adapt and evolve as it has many times before.

Many people seem to be absolutely terrified that the two warrior status quo might change. Stale metagame ftw!

Seriously, the counters are there, people already use them, they are useful in a wide variety of situations. There's nothing wrong with searing flames save that it commits the cardinal sin of giving elementalist a genuinely good damage option.

Patccmoi · Nov 01, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Spoil Victor is not a mainstream elite yet so the imbalance isn't as clear as Rampage as One or other elites. Degen hex builds (Cow's migraine build for example) were the fad at the end of last season to counter oflame, then everyone got uber worried about hex removal and they disappeared (before Victor got an uber boost). Now the meta has moved back to conditions because of nightfall (and in general people go towards rangers and conditions when the meta isn't yet defined) and hex removal is being dropped for dual extinguishes, RC, and such. As the meta becomes more physical attack based, the timing is almost perfect for a chaos hex build (FnlD's Bigger Big Build). In such a situation, Spoil Victor would be devastating.

I really agree with that. Spoil Victor is more than ridiculous imo. With Awaken the Blood it goes up to 37s duration and 115 damage... With new spammable Nearby AOE hexes, Necros (or E/N, an Hydro-Curses E/N has the best ability when it comes to applying hexes all over the place without running into energy problem) could be able to severly overwhelm the other team's hex removal ability. Just bring a 1-2 copies of Signet of Humility to handle elite hex removal and have something ready to cover for a split build, because you can be sure they'll try it!

And talking of Signet of Humility, in the current metagame this should be seriously considered. Use Signet of Humility on a Searing Flame Ele, and tell me exactly how many useful or threatening skill that guy has left? SoH on a Searing Flame Ele TOTALLY destroys the build since Searing Flame build is pretty much Searing Flame + emanagement and a rez. And it's far from a specific counter as SoH will never be a wasted skill slot no matter what team you face. It's just a 2 skill slots skill (SoH-MoI) which is a significant investment, but if these 2 skill slots take out 1 guy in full because his build is so 'single-minded' (me blast things with Searing Flames) they are more than worth it.

I don't really believe that Extinguish, Martyr or Cauthery Signet are counters. All you do is save 1 blast, and Extinguish will act as a some kind of Heal Party, but really it still heals less than a Searing Flame blast and you get these in your face every 3s. But they help i guess.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 01, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

The one problem that I really have with it is that if they want eles to be able to be a viable damage threat, they should at least give them multiple ways to do it. It's kind of going to be the same thing, where all eles that want to do damage run searing flames, similiar to how all eles use to run prod/second wind. If they're going to make eles a viable damage threat, give them a couple ways to do it rather than making one cookie cutter searing/glowing gaze ele.

Symbol · Nov 01, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Mind blast is pretty decent for combined damage + utility (another ~50 dps with immolate/MoR, glowing gaze and liquid flame). So I guess there's two good damage templates.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 02, 2006, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Played against a few of these tonight and none of them felt that dangerous. We had to be pretty proactive about shutting them down, but their eles who want to rage caster face so it really wasn't hard. We didn't even bother putting a lot of caster counters on them, we just sat warriors on their face and forced them to absorb more damage then they dealt every time the extended up to cast.

While this is obviously pretty powerful in HA where you don't see as much powered Heal Party and the maps are more enclosed, I don't think it's nerfworthy.

Kabale · Nov 02, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

I suppose - I've just been chilling in HA and there it seemed to be too powerful. With the utility you can bring in GvG I'm sure it's not that big of a threat.

Ry Dia · Nov 02, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

IMO, since my guild is playing a searing flames build (as well as played against them), it's not really imbalanced in gvg - better teams still beat weaker teams. It simply breaks down to IMO, the better teams shutdown/pressure the eles a lot better than the teams complaining about it. I wasn't in the ele spot when my team played NUKE tonight, but from playing other high ranked teams in that spot they all do a good job making it hard for the eles to pressure effectively.

latbec · Nov 02, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Oh noes! An ele using something else than ether prodigy and heal party! Help, plz, nerf! Start a petition!

A lot of people, including me, conclude that it was about time to give back the "nuking" to the ele. Reminds me of the old chain lightning days. Protting and enchant removals ftw.

jesh · Nov 02, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I hope they buff it, and I don't even use it. Please continue to make the elementalist what it's supposed to be, Arena Net.