Curse

Vermilion · Dec 19, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

something was not right when air spike was considered better on attribute 12 air with a mesmer
when compared to that of attribt 16 in ele air.

Something was not right back then either.

Sacrificing some damage for a 1sec orb is more than worth it, especially considering its a projectile.

Quote:

10/.75/6. If target is enchanted, DAMAGE affects nearby foes (not the blind effect).

10E is still very manageable for an ele with Air Atunement (6E really). They can use it easily more or less on recharge. But for /E that only want BSurge and won't use atunement, it becomes much less spammable.

That seems fair, imo.

As for SP, I think What if's suggestion is best.

Quote:

why not cut the damage by 20 and drop it to the next lowest AOE, that way it's more like a unconditional e-burn with a longer recharge than an unconditional shatter enchantment with AOE attached.

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

Sacrificing some damage for a 1sec orb is more than worth it, especially considering its a projectile.

Everyone knows WHY it worked, the issue at hand is that things are a bit out of whack if mesmers are consistently making better elementalists than elementalists.

As for SP, it's been repeatedly pointed out that it seems "un-mesmery" and that most mesmer abilities are designed to punish people for something. SP by its very description is supposed to be punishing them for something: Standing too close to the spirits, and/or placing them too close together. It's not exactly efficient to spend 30 energy killing a single spirit. Of course, it doesn't need to do over a hundred damage to someone to convince them that it's time to take a few steps away, which is why I think it would probably be fixed if it only did 85-ish damage to its primary target at 16 dom.

Xpl0iter · Dec 19, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Vermilion, i was being sarcastic there. I for one, used me/E spike my self.
There was a reason that i did prefer lesser damage over longet cast time.

I recall a suggestion which was shot down a while back. It was related to dmg increment by the amount of points spent in E-Storage line.
Well, that was that.
I still would say, energy storage should provide something extra in return than providing with extra energy... that's all.
Well this thread is not for that purpose, so i will end the discussion here.

As i have said before, eles have been used by mesmers to a high extent due to their versatile nature.
It is amazing to see that i used dual attunements on me/E even after they moved ele attune to energy storage attribute, just to get fast casting.
it was much better than spending hell of a time to cast same thing, just to cause a bit more damage where mesmer could do that without interuption.

Hmm.... Um, awkward idea. How about if an ELE spell being used by an ELE from ANY ele attribute line...
If the spent points in that line is over 12, give some energy back or overcome exhaustion faster?
or give a better recharge atleast?

Just wondering.

rubics · Dec 19, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I wouldn't make many of the suggested changes. I don't think skills should be comparable across classes or even stat-lines. There should be reasons to specialize in a particular attribute line. You pick it because it does better at something than an alternative line or class.

Paradigm builds are not a bad thing either. Just b/c SF + Glowing Gaze are common on Fire Elementalists doesn't mean they are broken and in need of change.

For what it's worth, I think the real question about whether a skill needs a nerf is twofold: 1.) whether individual skills are so useful that no one in their right mind would build a character of a particular class without taking it (or take the secondary without taking it) and 2.) whether there are reasonable countermeasures to the skill that can be employed without sacrificing utility. Using the SF as an example, I don't find that it's broken b/c sensible players will still run elementalists without it. In addition, there are several ways to mitigate the damage that are viable vs. other common types of damage. Serious condition removal in conjunction with spreading out works. Using counter mesmers works. Many builds would incorporate these features without SF. Thus, by my standard, the skill is fine.

Compare SF with a skill that was reasonably nerfed: Gale. In its hay-day (and it is still an excellent skill), almost everyone used Gale. Warriors used Gale, Elementalists used Gale, Mesmers used Gale, etc. If you didn't have a reason to take a secondary other than Elementalist, you took Elementalist for Gale. Furthermore, with it's somewhat quick cast time, it was difficult to counter effectively.

I guess after '16 pages of nerf everything under the sun' talk, my biggest question is what is the standard that you people are using to measure skills? Without a common standard, none of these suggestions seem to be much more than 'X skill was used effectively against me + I'll never use it so it should be nerfed.'

Patccmoi · Dec 20, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

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none of these suggestions seem to be much more than 'X skill was used effectively against me + I'll never use it so it should be nerfed.'

That's really a simplistic view on things and honestly it's just wrong. A lot of people always say that, often when they disagree with the skill being nerfed, but it's really kinda insulting the intelligence of other people. If you think top guilds don't use Spiritual Pain or BSurge, or even RaO and SF depending on the build... well honestly i doubt you do hehe. And yet many in there ARE asking for changes to them. Because when skills are too strong they severly limit options. You CAN counter them, GW has so many skills that everything in there has a counter somewhere (or nearly... shouts aren't very counterable even if 1 necro hex exists). But if the amount of builds that can in a viable way is too low it stalls the metagame.

Why do you think there was sooo many Euro spike last season? Pressure was nearly unusable with things like BSurge on Me/E spikers. The only pressure you saw was Avatar of Melandru Dervs. Avatar of Grenth got some popularity cause it IS a crazy skill but people got used to it and after a while it just wasn't all that efficient anymore because most of the time that warriors/grenth train would just all be constantly blind because of 1-2 BSurge spammers.

Some skills just kill variety in the games and many players hate that. It doesn't mean they won't run them or that they lose against them.

To come back on SP, i know you could just reduce damage by 20 and AOERED ENGINE GO. But personally i'd hate to see that. It'd be just a nuke, but a so-so one with a pretty long recharge. It just doesn't fit Mesmers for me. Domination is punishment. Make it so! I'd rather have SP being TRULY strong, but with a condition to meet, then being so-so conditionless. There is 15713985 so-so conditionless skills in the game, i don't see why we'd need one more. I prefer something that involves tactical play and counters than just another brainless nuked, only toned down.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Everyone knows WHY it worked, the issue at hand is that things are a bit out of whack if mesmers are consistently making better elementalists than elementalists

Just like thumpers are better than hammer wars or dervishes are better order spammers than necros. Its just the nature of the synergy.

I think most GvG players want to go back to the pressure builds. It was just more exciting when you had that tug of war that went back and forth constantly. Then once you finally got a kill the offense took over unless the other team was able to respond with lightning reflexes. Condition pressure is a thing of the past. When I did see a condition pressure team they got rolled by the spikes. I watch hex pressure teams get destroyed by divert hexes alone. The only condition pressure build that works is thumpers + SF. Burning has a low duration and easily reapplied and disease's aoe affect makes it easily reaplied also.

The current meta is who can spike faster and its very boring.

Anet when you introduce 15 anti pressure skill but only add 2 anti spike skills what kind of meta are you expecting to get?

Angelic bond is like gold right now and it really shouldn't be worth the elite slot.

I think this skill change should be more about bridging the gap between spike and pressure.

kvndoom · Dec 20, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

I posted in Sardelac that Sight Beyond Sight should be moved to Restoration instead of Spawning Power. Spawning Power is a VERY stupid place for that spell. What does curing blindness have to do with creating spirits? And since when do Rit primaries care about blindness? Wand spike?

That would be a decent start to this blinding epidemic that imbAnet has created. There are already so many counters to physicals (stances, wards, hexes, enchants), that throwing in perpetual blindess has made PVP very unfun for me, since I prefer playing melee.

Giving SBS flexible use by other than Rit primaries would ease this some, and still it would force having an undesirable secondary to use it (if you want that Shadow Prison spike attack, or guaranteed KD with Shock, or Mending Touch to get rid of other conditions, you gotta contend with the blindness), since */Rt isn't exactly defining the game right now. Plus it's an enchant and is as vulnerable as all other enchants.

I'd like to see it moved to Restoration where it belongs.

tomcruisejr · Dec 20, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Is it just me, or does Tomcruisejr first say Patmocci's nerf would kill the skill, and then suggests an even greater nerf himself? (not sure if thats correct english, but you get the idea)

just bring a spirit ranger and you can continue your spike galore?

Patccmoi · Dec 20, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

just bring a spirit ranger and you can continue your spike galore?

Well that's kinda what i said afterwards. It's not really a nerf if you got such an easy condition to meet and you'd need to tone down the damage too.

As for Sight beyond Sight, honestly it can already be maintained 50% of the time by /Rt using 20% longer enchant. It's good even with 0 in Spawning really, and it's cheap and 'instant' cast with decent recharge.

If it was in Restoration, you'd just have W/Rt going for 10 Resto having near constant immunity to blind and healing themselves with MB&S instead of Heal Sig. Would be more energy costy, but it'd be kinda too strong imo. It's fine in Spawning. And honestly with a good team build Rt/Ws are one of the best pressure char i know. 2 Rt/Ws with some team support (like OoP for more damage and cover enchant) can spike down someone from full health in 1.5s more or less no matter the armor.

Riotgear · Dec 20, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Just like thumpers are better than hammer wars or dervishes are better order spammers than necros.

Thumpers got smacked with the nerf bad fairly hard before RaO, which may get similar treatment.

The thumper situation is actually fairly similar regardless: Hammer is too energy-intensive, so energy-intensive that it's better run on a class that can mitigate the energy costs. That's poor design of the skill line that should probably be addressed.

Well, that and warriors can't have +25% move, +33% IAS, and 75% attack evasion on at the same time.

Dervish orders is a different situation, in that orders is a very small part of the necro skill set. Running curses hex builds, blood spike, or minion master on a non-necro primary is generally a bad idea because you sacrifice skill effectiveness to an unacceptable degree. With elementalist lines, the biggest effectiveness sacrifice you can make is apparently having a 2+ second casting time on your only worthwhile skills.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2006, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Thumpers got smacked with the nerf bad fairly hard before RaO, which may get similar treatment.

The thumper situation is actually fairly similar regardless: Hammer is too energy-intensive, so energy-intensive that it's better run on a class that can mitigate the energy costs. That's poor design of the skill line that should probably be addressed.

Well, that and warriors can't have +25% move, +33% IAS, and 75% attack evasion on at the same time.

Dervish orders is a different situation, in that orders is a very small part of the necro skill set. Running curses hex builds, blood spike, or minion master on a non-necro primary is generally a bad idea because you sacrifice skill effectiveness to an unacceptable degree. With elementalist lines, the biggest effectiveness sacrifice you can make is apparently having a 2+ second casting time on your only worthwhile skills.

Point being that some primaries use 2nd class skills better than the primary could. That's what makes the 2 class system interesting and fun.

Eles have a very important role in GvG and until LoD you NEVER saw a team w/o at least one. That cannot be said about the mesmer. As soon as SP is nerfed they will fall out of favor for more pressure.

Riotgear · Dec 20, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Point being that some primaries use 2nd class skills better than the primary could.

Some skills, not two entire lines of them. TF got a nerf specifically to counteract this phenomenon, what's that say?

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Eles have a very important role in GvG and until LoD you NEVER saw a team w/o at least one.

I said mesmers made better elementalists, I didn't say they made better Heal Party spammers. I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 20, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

See JR? the masses agree with my sentiment. Mesmers>elementalists at spikers, and that sucks. FIX GAME DESIGN PLZ.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 20, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Blinding Surge isn't inherently a problem on mesmers. The reason it gets put on a Me/E instead of an E/x is that the Domination line has a lot more utility than the air line. The only really good skills in the air line are Blinding Flash and Gale - B-surge replaces B-flash, and Gale can used as easily on a mesmer without much attribute investment.

The other major factor is Glyph of Lesser Energy. With the inspiration nerfs, every mesmer that doesn't need another secondary runs this skill because it's such ridiculously good energy management. When you've already got /E secondary it becomes much easier to splash in Blinding Surge.

You'll see primary eles running Blinding Surge when the rest of the line has skills that don't suck. Right now, the only other skills you really want to use are stuff like Deep Freeze and Storm Djinn's Haste that you really need Ether Prodigy to power out.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 20, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I actually like the AoE blind on surge, because it reduces pain trains.

Patrograd · Dec 20, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

See JR? the masses agree with my sentiment. Mesmers>elementalists at spikers, and that sucks. FIX GAME DESIGN PLZ.

Why do Eles *have* to be better spikers than mesmers?

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I actually like the AoE blind on surge, because it reduces pain trains.

SoA does a good enough job of that.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 20, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Why do Eles *have* to be better spikers than mesmers?

because, as has been mentioned numerous times on various threads about how bad nuking is, the Guild Wars Manual says "Eles can do more damage with a single spell than any other class". Which is a bold faced lie.

edit: after some fact checking, it actually reads "They [elementalists] can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession" which we've been over, so I don't want to turn this into a debate on that, I could instead bump the "Why Nuking Sucks" thread.

However, that should answer your question.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

because, as has been mentioned numerous times on various threads about how bad nuking is, the Guild Wars Manual says "Eles can do more damage with a single spell than any other class". Which is a bold faced lie.

So bad that most people are calling for a nerf on SF which is a nuking skill.

Its not that nuking sux its that its hard to balance. How do you make it so that multiple copies doesn't a roll but at the same time make it hard to dodge?

The tipping point is just so small from either useless to overpowered. That is why very small changes need to be done. Instead Anet nerfs the crap out of it then we move on.

Riotgear · Dec 20, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

So bad that most people are calling for a nerf on SF which is a nuking skill.

Its not that nuking sux its that its hard to balance. How do you make it so that multiple copies doesn't a roll but at the same time make it hard to dodge?

The tipping point is just so small from either useless to overpowered. That is why very small changes need to be done. Instead Anet nerfs the crap out of it then we move on.

SF is a nuke unlike any other nuke: It casts fast, it's on a short recharge, and it's got nearby AOE. Nothing else comes close. There are barely any nukes with a recharge shorter than 20, and SF has 2.

I'd be concerned about the "tipping point" you mention if there was a single other non-elite nuke even in the same ball park. Before SF, has running a character focused on nuking ever been viable? Have you ever felt threatened by Firestorm, Breath of Fire, Incendiary Bonds, Searing Heat (or its Factions clone), or Churning Earth?

The tipping point, if there is one, is a very long way off.

Multiple copies only really applies to SF. How do you make it hard to dodge? Increase the AOE to nearby.

EDIT - Regardless, the point was made about elementalists supposedly being the strongest spiker according to the manual, unless the manual was referring to Rodgort's Invocation under optimal conditions or something.