Curse

Xpl0iter · Dec 19, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

5 seconds burning means simply 1 less cast on SF as well, not very different than 3 sec recharge.
Dmg reduction from 119 to 105 sounds more appropriate to me.
Any thing that hits the skill with a whole 119 dmg reduction is not good.

Phades · Dec 19, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I guess seeing how the tournament went Anet has no choise but to nerf SP

Hope not, it is a good skill in a very useful skill line. Whats next, nerf diversion and e-surge while "adjusting" blackout again? Spritual pain is good, but i really dont think it needs to be cut back, just because it has good damage up front on a slow recharge. Other comparable skills really need to simply suck less, most notably from the ele lines.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 19, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Hope not, it is a good skill in a very useful skill line. Whats next, nerf diversion and e-surge while "adjusting" blackout again? Spritual pain is good, but i really dont think it needs to be cut back, just because it has good damage up front on a slow recharge. Other comparable skills really need to simply suck less, most notably from the ele lines.

Umm, yes it's overpowered. It is overpowered when one character can have the best anti-melee skill out there, have very good anti-caster skills, have the best way of putting instant damage on a target (and it's AoE to boot), and on top of all that, still be able to maintain a very good attribute spread.

Domination is a shutdown line, it shouldn't turn into the best spike line with the best spike skills in it also.

And if you make comparable skills better (I'm assuming you mean stuff like ele lightning skills, instant damage on a target ala orb or invoke lightning), then this game turns into a super-spike metagame where spikes are so powerful that monks can't possibly heal them.

Etrik · Dec 19, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Umm, yes it's overpowered. It is overpowered when one character can have the best anti-melee skill out there, have very good anti-caster skills, have the best way of putting instant damage on a target (and it's AoE to boot), and on top of all that, still be able to maintain a very good attribute spread.

Domination is a shutdown line, it shouldn't turn into the best spike line with the best spike skills in it also.

And if you make comparable skills better (I'm assuming you mean stuff like ele lightning skills, instant damage on a target ala orb or invoke lightning), then this game turns into a super-spike metagame where spikes are so powerful that monks can't possibly heal them.

Whoopdy do, 2 whole spiking skills in a shutdown/damage line. I'm exhillerated. I always though supression = domination. And please, enlighten me, how are Orb/IL instant damage? They have cast times and Orb is hella easy to dodge.

Patccmoi · Dec 19, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Umm, yes it's overpowered. It is overpowered when one character can have the best anti-melee skill out there, have very good anti-caster skills, have the best way of putting instant damage on a target (and it's AoE to boot), and on top of all that, still be able to maintain a very good attribute spread.

Domination is a shutdown line, it shouldn't turn into the best spike line with the best spike skills in it also.

And if you make comparable skills better (I'm assuming you mean stuff like ele lightning skills, instant damage on a target ala orb or invoke lightning), then this game turns into a super-spike metagame where spikes are so powerful that monks can't possibly heal them.

I pretty much agree with that...

Look at the other Mesmer nukes, they're all conditional which is REQUIRED since they do armor ignoring damage and that's really really dangerous when multiple people are doing it in the team (OFlame spike anyone? Signet of Mystic Wrath? etc.). EBurn requires target to have high enough energy for multiple Mesmers to do it, Wastrel's Demise works on casters mostly and is weaker vs melee, Shatter Enchant requires target to have an enchant or it does nothing, Power Spike requires target to be casting, etc. They're all excellent skills (well, most) but they're CONDITIONAL. Spiritual Pain isn't conditional, it has Nearby AOE (albeit slightly weaker but still very good damage) AND it's even better if there's spirits. It's like giving an OFlame to Mesmers, except the line is already packed with armor ignoring nukes of multiple sort and the best shutdowns in the game. And OFlame builds usually limit your elite (Glyph of Energy) while Dom Mesmers don't have any required elites to take which is why you saw some with BSurge, Incoming!, etc.

And anyway, i don't wanna make a comparison with OFlame vs Spiritual Pain and argue if Spiritual Pain is as good of a spike skill because i think OFlame spike is too good already, too easy to use for the results and extremely hard to counter in some maps. But OFlame spikes are usually not really balanced because the Eles aren't as versatile, while Dom Mesmers can be very versatile chars able to skirmish, shutdown, nuke, gank...

I don't want Spiritual Pain destroyed, but i'd like it to be more in line with Mesmer line and be kinda conditional. It's either add some kind of condition to make it do as much as it does now (like i dunno, target has to be in the area of a spirit or affected by a ritual to take full damage. Note that you could bring your own Rituals, but they could be took out) or simply lower its damage. Domination Mesmers is about punishing. ESurge/EBurn = you have energy, suffer for it. Shatter Enchant is you are enchanted, suffer for it. Empathy you attack, suffer for it. Etc... Spiritual Pain is like you exist, suffer for it. And that's a little too harsh =p

Currently Mesmers are close to the best spikers and Eles are utility (well, Eles are a little better at damage now. A little). There's something wrong with that.

Xpl0iter · Dec 19, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

That "Little" Better is what people want nerfed. AKA Searing Flames

TheOneMephisto · Dec 19, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Whoopdy do, 2 whole spiking skills in a shutdown/damage line. I'm exhillerated. I always though supression = domination. And please, enlighten me, how are Orb/IL instant damage? They have cast times and Orb is hella easy to dodge.

Because instant damage to me means that the damage all hits instantly, as in a spike.

And yes, the best non-elite (and arguably the best elite or non-elite) spiking skill and one of the best followups in an already very versatile and good line is overpowered. You only need 2 skills for spiking, then they can use the rest of the bar for defense, shutdown, edenial, whatever they want.

When 95% of the teams in a tourney use builds that are arguably based around mesmers spiking or supporting spikes with spiritual pain, yes, something is wrong.

DieInBasra · Dec 19, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

When 95% of the teams in a tourney use builds that are arguably based around mesmers spiking or supporting spikes with spiritual pain, yes, something is wrong.

Maybe the format limiting alot of other types of play?

JR · Dec 19, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Maybe the format limiting alot of other types of play?

Regardless; Dom Mesmers are ridiculously strong right now.

Khaunshar · Dec 19, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Some of the Mesmer prevalence sure was due to the format. SP spike is very good, but its not off the charts yet.

Personally, I dont mind a bit of fresh air in the metagame.

IMO balance changes after this tournament should be used to bring expansion classes more to the front. I am still dreaming of a meta without 3 monk backline

Thom · Dec 19, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Spiritual pain could use another 10-15 seconds recharge. I don't like the concept, but if recharge is meant to be the down side make it hurt cut the efficiency by 30-50%.

Rampage as One is stupid good and incredibly easy exploit its only weakness with a death necro. Nice concept weak execution.

Turn down Diversion ever so slightly. Counters basically everything and strength scales up with player skill. Diversion in the hands of an excellent player is practically a one skill shutdown.

Glyph of Lesser Energy. Find a happy medium with this skill please, no big nerf but a single skill shouldn't dominate energy management. Perhaps rebalancing the inspiration line up a bit without fulling restoring where it was would help.

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Spiritual pain could use another 10-15 seconds recharge.

What it could use is a shorter recharge and a drop in damage to around that of, say, Desecrate Enchantments. It would still serve what appears to be its intended purpose (making spirit spam more difficult, provided spirit spam becomes viable again), without being some sort of ridiculous cross between Energy Surge and Obsidian Flame.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 19, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Turn down Diversion ever so slightly. Counters basically everything and strength scales up with player skill. Diversion in the hands of an excellent player is practically a one skill shutdown.

I would hate to see a nerf to one of the only general counters in this game. General counters are the key to versatile builds that can handle a variety of opponents, rather than just Build Warsing your way up the ladder. It's a skill that scales based on the ability of the player and can be used to counter a wide variety of enemy skills and tactics. This is exactly what the game needs more of - nerfing it would just be wrong.

Eurospike is overpowered right now because it combines the 8v8 strength of a caster spike with the flexibility and splitting power of a pressure build. Combined with the difficulty in disrupting the spike (interrupts are not effective with mesmer casting times) and you have a very scary build.

Some combination of nerfs to Critical Chop (damage), Spiritual Pain (damage+cast time), Shadow Prison (recharge), and Blinding Surge (recharge) would make the build a lot weaker.

Phades · Dec 19, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Umm, yes it's overpowered. It is overpowered when one character can have the best anti-melee skill out there, have very good anti-caster skills, have the best way of putting instant damage on a target (and it's AoE to boot), and on top of all that, still be able to maintain a very good attribute spread.

You are just realizing this now after how many years of play? Seriously the scaling is wrong way earlier in the design phase if you are having a problem with spiritual pain now. If you have a skill that does A) 80 damage and B) has a side effect of draining energy while also C) on a shorter recharge and create another skill in a profession that has this thing and has fast casting, then something has tripped up much earlier in the process. Besides that existing, you still have really strong and cheap follow up spike skills like wastrels demise for casters. But apperantly people just seem to be noticing this now for some reason just because spiritual pain is the icing on the cake. This call for a nerf is essentially calling for a re-design of the skill line because of the existing scaling involved. Essentially you want the dom skills to suck as bad as the majority of the fire line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Domination is a shutdown line, it shouldn't turn into the best spike line with the best spike skills in it also.

Fast casting and no projectile skills that ignore AL have more to do with this than anything else. Then again, thats the entire mesmer profession. Of course, the only comparable item really in that regard is tied to elementalists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

And if you make comparable skills better (I'm assuming you mean stuff like ele lightning skills, instant damage on a target ala orb or invoke lightning), then this game turns into a super-spike metagame where spikes are so powerful that monks can't possibly heal them.

Actually, that would be apples vs oranges, since the majority of the air line is single target hits. I was thinking more along the lines of not being forced to sit through 3 seconds of cast time for a comparable sized aoe spell. Small reductions in energy to be parrallel to the mesmer equivilants, while having some intsances of small damage or aoe size nudges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

General counters are the key to versatile builds that can handle a variety of opponents, rather than just Build Warsing your way up the ladder. It's a skill that scales based on the ability of the player and can be used to counter a wide variety of enemy skills and tactics. This is exactly what the game needs more of - nerfing it would just be wrong.

Isnt that similar to making blinding surge less effective, since its a general physical counter making it less catch all but not potentially shutting down a few key skills on potentially more than one character for close to a minute? In other words, having the option to point and cast shutdown for short periods of time, but not being able to say knock out eviserate for close to a minute.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 19, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Isnt that similar to making blinding surge less effective, since its a general physical counter making it less catch all but not potentially shutting down a few key skills on potentially more than one character for close to a minute? In other words, having the option to point and cast shutdown for short periods of time, but not being able to say knock out eviserate for close to a minute.

Blinding Surge isn't a general counter, it's a skill that makes it almost impossible for a single physical to do his job. That seems general because physicals are so crucial to Guild Wars, but in practice Diversion is much more versatile than Blinding Surge. Outside of skirmish scenarios the damage from Blinding Surge is inconsequential and the blind effect is all you really care about, which makes it weak when you want to make a push and play offensively. If the enemy has Melandru dervishes or Sight Beyond Sight guys or Signet of Malice you're going to feel pretty useless.

I'm not saying Blinding Surge isn't effective - it's an overpowered skill that manages to be very versatile, but it's not a general counter because there are a lot of builds and situations where it just isn't effective. Diversion is good against any build or tactic, and it's good both offensively and defensively. Compare directly to Blackout and Gale - both incredibly useful skills that pull their weight against any build, but balanced by their drawbacks.

The other difference is fun factor. When Prophecies was being designed Arenanet went to great lengths to avoid hard locks of characters (in stark contrast to their competitors.) After release they nerfed both Gale and Blackout because the two in combination were hard-locking characters for long periods of time, preventing them from accomplishing anything.

However, with Nightfall they added crazy skills like Ebon Dust Aura and Blinding Surge, which essentially make an asymmetric trade with one physical. These skills singlehandedly overpower condition removal (except possibly Signet of Malice), creating a situation where the physical character is permanently locked down and there's really not much his team can do about it. Hard locks are simply not fun from a gameplay perspective, and they're exactly what these skills allow and promote. Harrier's Grasp is a similar problem.

twicky_kid · Dec 19, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Even if you nerf blinding surge blinding flash will come back. Same result just more energy. Even more managable now with the atturnement changes.

Lower the cost on b flash to 10e

Increase the cost on B surge to 10e

The aoe blind and dmg is well worth the elite status for b surge. Maybe at 10e you won't see mesmers using it more than eles.

MORE BUFFS!!!

scamPOR · Dec 19, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Blinding Surge isn't a general counter, it's a skill that makes it almost impossible for a single physical to do his job. That seems general because physicals are so crucial to Guild Wars, but in practice Diversion is much more versatile than Blinding Surge. Outside of skirmish scenarios the damage from Blinding Surge is inconsequential and the blind effect is all you really care about, which makes it weak when you want to make a push and play offensively. If the enemy has Melandru dervishes or Sight Beyond Sight guys or Signet of Malice you're going to feel pretty useless.

I'm not saying Blinding Surge isn't effective - it's an overpowered skill that manages to be very versatile, but it's not a general counter because there are a lot of builds and situations where it just isn't effective. Diversion is good against any build or tactic, and it's good both offensively and defensively. Compare directly to Blackout and Gale - both incredibly useful skills that pull their weight against any build, but balanced by their drawbacks.

The other difference is fun factor. When Prophecies was being designed Arenanet went to great lengths to avoid hard locks of characters (in stark contrast to their competitors.) After release they nerfed both Gale and Blackout because the two in combination were hard-locking characters for long periods of time, preventing them from accomplishing anything.

However, with Nightfall they added crazy skills like Ebon Dust Aura and Blinding Surge, which essentially make an asymmetric trade with one physical. These skills singlehandedly overpower condition removal (except possibly Signet of Malice), creating a situation where the physical character is permanently locked down and there's really not much his team can do about it. Hard locks are simply not fun from a gameplay perspective, and they're exactly what these skills allow and promote. Harrier's Grasp is a similar problem.

QFT! Bsurge is basically a free lock down of a physical for as long as you like. 5e for that + some damage is retardedly good. Nerf recharge or something so mesmers can't be a blindbot and also a spiker with serious damage.

Bankai · Dec 19, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

To the one who said spiritual pain wasn't overpowered: It singlehandedly made a profession with no spike-ability to the best spikers, whiped ritualists off the face of the earth, also whiped the nr/tranq meta-game off the face of the earth, made splits much less effective since also spiritual pain can whipe out all the npcs in an extremely short time.

Nope, SP definately isn't overpowered.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 19, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

To the one who said spiritual pain wasn't overpowered: It singlehandedly made a profession with no spike-ability to the best spikers, whiped ritualists off the face of the earth, also whiped the nr/tranq meta-game off the face of the earth, made splits much less effective since also spiritual pain can whipe out all the npcs in an extremely short time.

Domination mesmers were always strong in spike builds. Diversion, Shatter Enchantment, Burn/Surge, Blackout - they're all skills with varying degrees of utility, but every single one of them is at its best in a 321spike situation.

Spiritual Pain and Wastrel's Demise are the extremes of that. They ignore the 'disruption' concept of the mesmer class in favor of more damage and spiking ability.

Whether or not the Domination mesmer should be a spike character is an academic debate. They've been a strong spike character since release, and barring some new skills I don't see that changing. Spiritual Pain and Wastrel's Demise are overpowered in their own right, but make no mistake, they're nothing more than an extension of what the mesmer was already doing.

Seamus Finn · Dec 19, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Even if you nerf blinding surge blinding flash will come back. Same result just more energy. Even more managable now with the atturnement changes.

Even with an attunement, Bflash is still nowhere near Bsurge. Hell dual attune if you like, you still wont have aoe blind and now you've wasted two slots, including an elite, for a easily tampered blindbot. Bflash is a far more balanced skill, because on an ele bar there's so much to be done wih expensive skills that bflash had to be used TACTICALLY, as in, not spamming it repeatedly on a single war but flashing that war during a spike.

Squidget got what I was going to say to the guy who thought mesmers couldn't spike, but its also worht noting that Esurge, a great, very spikey elite, becomes not necessary when you can get the same effect on a skill that isn't elite. Now you can devote your elite to whatever you like, for instance... BSURGE!

Also, Spiritual is a nice counter to NR Tranq, I suppose, but a defensive rit and hist spirits shouldn't be in a position to be attacked by a 60 armor level target. Offensive spirits, which were looking nice a season ago, did get hit by this, but more hit because their AI got very strange...