Curse

Legendary Shiz · Dec 17, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

I'd cry if they nerfed Spiritual Pain, has to be one of my top 5 favorite skills atm.

Wilhelm · Dec 17, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I"m too lazy to read through 13 pages of nerf wants/don't s......but, from a Monk primary's views........why not buff up Smiting, so that it's actually useful in competitive Pvp. (Other than crap AoE smiting)

I still find it hard to believe that an entire mastery of a "core" profession isn't used in any way other than a gimmicky FotM halls build, or for a single skill for a hex build. (Scourge Healing).

-Wilhelm

HolyHawk · Dec 17, 2006, 06:41 AM // 06:41

I believe second wind is fine, again, if your work with +energy sets. The exhaustion it causes can be used to reach an appropriate lv of exhaustion without needing another skill, and manage your energy keep it at that level. Ether Prism could have a lower break point yes, but the energy poll would be shorter as well, so I am not sure, the skill sounds fine to me. Energy boon on the other hand is just stupid, so little energy for exhaustion...

shardfenix · Dec 17, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The same could be said about e surge + spiritual pain. You can't help but to crowd on some maps. Any aoe spike would have done the same thing.

No, because every other aoe spike has a recharge.

Dzan · Dec 17, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

why not buff up Smiting, so that it's actually useful in competitive Pvp. (Other than crap AoE smiting)

Here is why: if they make smiting too good at AOE, no one uses Fire Magic. If they make smiting too good at single target smites, no one uses Air Magic.

Lorekeeper · Dec 17, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

just because someone asks for something to be buffed.. does it necessarily mean that the buffed skill line will be overpowered? I mean... talking on a purely theoretical stance here.

The ideal situation i see is a situation where a build maker is trying to fill certain roles he would like to use in his build. In this 'ideal' situation... the build maker as alternatives... options... none of which present a CLEAR advantage over the other since all options make a unique contribution to the build. This allows the build maker freedom to make a choice based on individual preferences. And so we see a little 'artistic' license being exercised. What you call creativity.

Asking for buffs to other sources of AOE dmg like smiting... is just to provide the same alternatives to a Searing flames fire ele. So if the smiting line does get a buff... it should be done so in order that it becomes an alternative... not a replacement.

Ill repeat here a phrase ive come up with to summarise the concept behind this line of thought.

Diversity in balanced skill system allows us to make choices in what we include in our builds.
unbalanced skill systems make choices for us.

when i talk about skill changes, i dont want to nerf things so they dont get used anymore or buff things so they get used all the time. I want to promote a situation where its not so clearcut that you should include skill x over skill y.

lets not get too hasty and too extreme...

Relambrien · Dec 18, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

just because someone asks for something to be buffed.. does it necessarily mean that the buffed skill line will be overpowered? I mean... talking on a purely theoretical stance here.

The ideal situation i see is a situation where a build maker is trying to fill certain roles he would like to use in his build. In this 'ideal' situation... the build maker as alternatives... options... none of which present a CLEAR advantage over the other since all options make a unique contribution to the build. This allows the build maker freedom to make a choice based on individual preferences. And so we see a little 'artistic' license being exercised. What you call creativity.

Asking for buffs to other sources of AOE dmg like smiting... is just to provide the same alternatives to a Searing flames fire ele. So if the smiting line does get a buff... it should be done so in order that it becomes an alternative... not a replacement.

Ill repeat here a phrase ive come up with to summarise the concept behind this line of thought.

Diversity in balanced skill system allows us to make choices in what we include in our builds.
unbalanced skill systems make choices for us.

when i talk about skill changes, i dont want to nerf things so they dont get used anymore or buff things so they get used all the time. I want to promote a situation where its not so clearcut that you should include skill x over skill y.

lets not get too hasty and too extreme...

In an ideal world, each skill would be usable, and no skill would be clearly better than any other. Mending would be as good as Gift of Health. Smiting and Elementalists would both be equally usable for damage. But creating that ideal world is just plain impossible, because of human ingenuity making things better than they're intended to be, or a lack of human ingenuity causing one thing to be picked over another. When you add the human element, what you're asking for is impossible.

twicky_kid · Dec 18, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

No, because every other aoe spike has a recharge.

Every other aoe doesn't have a condition to meet before it can deal any dmg.

When I'm monking against SF I simply remove the burning. Sure it will be reapplied but its better than taking those huge shots of dmg.

If they increase the recharge they kill the skill. The ONLY problem this skill has is the amount of dmg it does in a large area.

If they increase it to the 3 second recharge you will only be able to get 1 shot of dmg before the burn wears off. So 30e for 7 seconds of buring and 90+ dmg would not be worth it. You also give the monk 3 seconds to remove the burning negating all your dmg.

Just reduce the insane dmg this skill does and it will still be usable and good pressure.

Riotgear · Dec 18, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If they increase it to the 3 second recharge you will only be able to get 1 shot of dmg before the burn wears off.

And if a second copy of SF is brought in, then what?

twicky_kid · Dec 18, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

And if a second copy of SF is brought in, then what?

Right now you are able to cast it twice during the buring duration. If you change it to 3 sec recharge you will on be able to cast it once during the burning duration.

You would be cutting the dmg in half if you change it to 3 sec recharge. Doesn't matter how many copies you bring its still going to be cut in half.

Doing that will ensure the spell probly never sees play again. Reduce the dmg so its still usable. I don't see the big fuse to be honest. It only beats noob teams. Think I lost against it once out of the 20+ gvgs I did during last weekend.

Phades · Dec 18, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

And if a second copy of SF is brought in, then what?

And you get an even more of a gimmic and a less flexable character that gets defeated by positioning and smart use of prot and condition removal that would only really be useful in clearing out a congested area like a dias.

Thats kinda like saying what if i have spiritual pain and the opponent keeps putting down spirits and staying next to them. Sure it can happen, but its not likely. Although it is rather amazing how 1 dumb ranger and 3 half asleep people can lose because of a favorable winds spirit being planted close to all of them.

Symbol · Dec 18, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

I have to wonder, if SF is overpowered, then why wasn't everyone running it throughout the tournament?

JR · Dec 18, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I have to wonder, if SF is overpowered, then why wasn't everyone running it throughout the tournament?

FW tried it against us, in the first round of the Swiss. It er, didn't go so well for them.

twicky_kid · Dec 18, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I have to wonder, if SF is overpowered, then why wasn't everyone running it throughout the tournament?

Its really a champ farming build. Most teams are bad at 2 things: positioning and splits.

SF plays on the weakness in tactics by your foes. The only instance that it does go into being overpowered is at VoD.

If it wasn't SF nuking the NPCs it would be meteor shower or any other aoe you can think of.

To run SF you need more than 1 so that reason alone to me makes it not overpowered. 1 SF does basicly nothing.

Riotgear · Dec 18, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I have to wonder, if SF is overpowered, then why wasn't everyone running it throughout the tournament?

Probably because with every team running SP, and many running several copies of it, the last thing you want to run SF against is a bunch of dom mesmers.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 18, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

^yep. JR's 3 diversions flying around from his teammates is going to just kick you in the teeth if you try SF.

Patccmoi · Dec 18, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Probably because with every team running SP, and many running several copies of it, the last thing you want to run SF against is a bunch of dom mesmers.

I'd kinda have to go with that.

No matter how strong SF is, it will never be good when you face a bunch of Mesmers packing Diversion. One mistake and your build is void, and even if you don't make any mistake Diversion makes your SF weak because they easily have time to remove burn while you're in Diversion so you can't stack the damage. Not to mention that Fire Attune has pretty good chances of being took out. Might as well throw fireballs and Rodgort's... Dom Mesmers are still good anti-casters even when designed to spike, and SF Eles are particularly weak against them because of their reliance on 1 spammed skill.

Honestly Dom Mesmers TOTALLY dominated the tournament as a whole. Spiritual Pain spikes was just really powerful, and it's even awesome at VoD because a bunch of stacked NPCs eating SP and maybe an ESurge or 2 are just all dead straight. Add to that the fact that Me/E can make extremely good use of Blinding Surge and that's why you saw so many of them, one build packing (imo) the 2 most nerf-worthy skills atm. Even Avatar of Grenth weren't really efficient because of all the BSurges and the fact that they often got spiked by a bunch of Spiritual Pain and had Avatar wasted for a little while.

Dobermann · Dec 18, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Zelous Benediction

LMAO; ridiculously overpowerd IMHO

heals about 180 with prot prayers at 16,

thats more than a WoH with Divine Boon, i thought Protection Prayers were inteded to "reduce" damage not do more healing than a Booned WoH?

Blind Surge, yes too spamable

AoGods need nerfing as well, from 120 to at most 70 seconds

Errrm, ahh yes, Evisc needs to be restored to its former glory.

Uhhh, Searing Flames=new IWAY nerf it or remove it to burning for 5 secs with 16 fire ^^

Nuthing worng with RaO.
I do think that that thingy that wipes spirs out of GvG needs nerfing

thats it ATM gonna go scour the PoB and come back wid sum more ^^

Thomas.knbk · Dec 18, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I guess seeing how the tournament went Anet has no choise but to nerf SP

neoflame · Dec 18, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobermann

Zelous Benediction

LMAO; ridiculously overpowerd IMHO

heals about 180 with prot prayers at 16,

thats more than a WoH with Divine Boon

With the target under 50% health, WoH heals for 31..180 and ZB heals for... 30..180. OH SNAP

Quote:

AoGods need nerfing as well, from 120 to at most 70 seconds

Avatars already last 15..75 seconds.