Curse

Patccmoi · Dec 13, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Avatar of Grenth: Attacks cost an additional 3..1 energy with 1 at say, 14ish spec.

Personally i prefer only work > 50% cause it's just too easy to fuel a Derv's energy anyway (have orders running for example and you have infinite energy to all Dervs). And it's still very powerful while working only on people > 50% health, no monk would leave people below 50% for a Derv to be unable to remove the prot, but at least this way it would be a little harder for the Derv + 2 warrior train to finish off prot people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Spoil Victor: 15s recharge

I think damage needs to be lowered some too (like 15..85 with from 0..15). It just scales too high atm it's ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Blinding Surge: 6s recharge. No AoE blind. Ever. Hate. Hate. Hate.

To keep it a Surge (which is the point of the skill hehe) I'd rather see the damage getting an adjacent AOE, like ESurge does its main effect on primary target but damage in AOE. Like if target if enchanted, adjacent targets take same damage. But AOE blind IS stupid. If it remains, it should be like 1..3s blind for adjacent foes (at 0..4..12 breakpoints). It could make them miss a spike, which i think is actually fine, but not keep many people blind which is retarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Deadly Paradox: 50% failure rate with Deadly Arts 7 or less.

While i like this change i'm not too sure this will happen cause they more or less never put 50% failure on skills that scale. How about skills recharge/activate 20..50% faster? DA Sins (which i personally love) would still be able to use it as well as they do now but it'd have less abuse potential with like 2 in DA where it would be 24% faster activation/recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Shadow of Haste: hmmm... tough one. 90 second recharge? Lose all energy when this stance ends?

Duration has to be higher than recharge or the skill kinda loses its point imo. But something when stance ends/is reactivated would be good. Either a skill lock, energy loss, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Spiritual Pain: Less damage.

Personally i would've like something related to spirits for the damage. Like, target takes 10..34 damage. If target is in the area of a spirit or affected by a Ritual (Nature/Spirit) he takes an additional x damage. You could bring your own Nature's Renewals but at least killing them would weaken the skill somewhat. I love Mesmers since start of GW and it's been my main prof for a long time but now i dislike how they're more and more losing their flavor as disruption (out of Diversion) / control in favor of just being direct damage nukers. And unconditional nukes don't help that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Wastrels Demise: 2s cast time.

This would just become uncontrollable. If it goes up to 2s cast, damage has to be raised. Atm i think the skill is fine overall but if anything I'd just nerf its recharge.

Those i didn't quote i pretty much agree with!

And 1 skill i didn't see mentioned (though didn't read through all of this!) is Mystic Regeneration. I know this doesn't see that much use yet but it's totally crazy. It should give either 1..3 regen (0/4/12 breakpoints) per enchant or 1..4 like now but with a cap at +10. Because it's really easy with that enchant to have something like +16/18 regen on you all the time for nearly no cost.

Servant of Kali · Dec 13, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Mystic regen was mentioned i believe

lol, i will admit i love that skill in Fort Aspenwood, it gives me +24 regen (no kidding). However, let's be honest.. Mystic Regen hasnt even been used except a bit here and there. It's a good skill -but- i'd rather see changed to problematic skills (unused skills and overused) than skills which are potentially very good but in practice not used much.

So, let's keep things simple. In any arena i watched, Mystic Regen was hardly used. I can only remember RA where E/D tanks fooled around for a while but i dont see them anymore.

I could post a lot of skills which need changes badly, atm im lazy but might go through them.

Anyhow, dont know about others but >50% on Grenth might be a bit harsh. You say that Dervishes can get energy easily from Orders but that means sacrificing char for it. Sure, it works, but overall i didnt notice Dervishes dominating the metagame. Actually, in top50 i would usually see few teams using them and that's about it (granted, i dont spend days watching observer so dont flame me).

The problem is that Dervish doesnt have other viable Avatars for GvG. Melandru is ok, sure. But Dwayna, Lyssa and Balthazar are just not good enough. Lyssa is more suited for non-stythe weapons, but i havent seen assassins using it either (except as fun builds outside of GvG). So, if Grenth is nerfed then i expect buff to others, to make them usable.

moriz · Dec 14, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

personally, the skill that i feel have the most potential, but is quite disappointing, is signet of removal.

instead of what it is right now, change it to something like this:

divine favour attribute (instead of no attribute):
target ally is healed for 20-70 health. if target ally is enchanted, you remove 1 hex and 1 condition.

that will make the damn thing at least somewhat useful.

ubard · Dec 14, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

personally, the skill that i feel have the most potential, but is quite disappointing, is signet of removal.

instead of what it is right now, change it to something like this:

divine favour attribute (instead of no attribute):
target ally is healed for 20-70 health. if target ally is enchanted, you remove 1 hex and 1 condition.

that will make the damn thing at least somewhat useful.

very much agreed. although then it's really just better than blight, and at the same time very very similar.

it's be nice though, that skill is so cool-seeming but just not worth it too run. Like life sheath.

i think something cool like this would be interesting:

Sig of Removal (1C, 3R)
Target Ally is healed for 20...60 health. If target ally is not under the effect of a condition, remove a hex. If that ally is not under the effect of a hex, remove a condition instead.

or something like that. My wording seems strange.
(of course both effects would happen simultaniously, it wouldn't remove a hex and then decide there are no hexes and remove a condition.)

i kinda think most of the elite dervish forms besides grenths and melandrus are kinda underpowerd. although i havn't really seen them in action much.

Riotgear · Dec 14, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Dwayna could be buffed to remove a condition every time a hex is removed, to line up with certain... ahem... other elites. I'd actually say Balthazar doesn't really need a buff as it's basically a PvE skill and it's damn good at that (since all of Abaddon's baddies just love holy damage).

Etrik · Dec 14, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

So if he's hexed + conditioned he only gets healed for 60 health?

Still, 60 health with a 1s cast and 3s recharge is pretty much on par with sig, maybe slightly better. Couldn't replace BL tho..

Riotgear · Dec 14, 2006, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Couldn't replace BL tho..

It doesn't need to replace BL, but if it spares your monk from having to cast it and all you have to do is use a skill you probably would have used anyway, then it's probably worth it.

Dwayna looks like it was designed as a sort of counter-pressure tool, since it does provide decent health return and a fairly easy way to burn off a hex stack. Of course, with b-surge and SF everywhere, immunity to both and free wearying strike spam is insanely better at that. And completely gimping prot attempts is even better.

Who knows, maybe it's just there for scrubby PvP so people can pack Dwayna, Vital Boon, and SoPL and never have to worry about dying. Ever.

Etrik · Dec 14, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It doesn't need to replace BL, but if it spares your monk from having to cast it and all you have to do is use a skill you probably would have used anyway, then it's probably worth it.

Dwayna looks like it was designed as a sort of counter-pressure tool, since it does provide decent health return and a fairly easy way to burn off a hex stack. Of course, with b-surge and SF everywhere, immunity to both and free wearying strike spam is insanely better at that. And completely gimping prot attempts is even better.

Who knows, maybe it's just there for scrubby PvP so people can pack Dwayna, Vital Boon, and SoPL and never have to worry about dying. Ever.

Dwayna + OoP + Signet of Pious = Win?

I've already seen an OoP+SoPL dervish with 15 mysticism. He rocked the house and was always (except right after he had cast OoP) at full health. T'was fun

Servant of Kali · Dec 14, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Dwayna could be buffed to remove a condition every time a hex is removed, to line up with certain... ahem... other elites. I'd actually say Balthazar doesn't really need a buff as it's basically a PvE skill and it's damn good at that (since all of Abaddon's baddies just love holy damage).

Actually, in 99% PvE areas Dwayna is IMO better than Balthazar (at least the build i use). I also dont agree with Dwayna removing conditions, it would kill the uniqueness of avatars

Even if we say these 2 are ok (albeit underpowered in PvP), Lyssa needs a buff

Why doesnt that avatar do chaos dmg?

Quote:

so people can pack Dwayna, Vital Boon, and SoPL and never have to worry about dying. Ever.

No, you pack Prot spirit and RoF with Dwayna (plus Mending Touch), the rest are attack skills. While avatar is active you will tank quite a lot, both in PvP and PvE.

ogami_ito · Dec 14, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

It seems to me that so much here is talking about this skill or that skill overpowered without taking into consideration the role of that particular class and commonly found counters. I also seems that a great deal in here are complaints about gankers, dervs, and anti-monk. Again, it seems that these suggestions are made because people want monks to be very powerfull, and because people don’t want to spend effort on defense. And I also feel like people want to have nerfs in order to maintain certain class ratio’s in the metagame.

For example…Dervishes. Never mind that they are not that common (yet) in high-end PvP anyway. Dervs are utterly destroyed by certain common types of mesmers and necros. They suffer from the weaknesses of both warriors (to hexes, blinds, cripple) and spell-users (daze, low armor, Backfire, etc). Their defense outside of their great self-heals is minimal. And yet, people want to nerf the Avatar of Grenth (a skill which is in recharge every-other minute ) because can seriously hurt a monk…especially when the monk is followed by a derv and two other warriors. [s]Because monks should be able to easily survive the attention of 3 melee characters…[/sarcasm off] And people actually claim to want to nerf Mystic Regen…the best derv skill and primary way for dervs to stay alive (other than the Vital Boon / Signet of Pious Light combo). Why not nerf the mesmer and necro skills that destroy dervs? That was a rhetorical question…the answer to which is that dervs and mesmers and necros are designed to have some basic intra-class balance. Avatar of Grenth is there to tip the balance AWAY from monks. And I think the ultimate goal is to increase variety in the metagame, in order to make it more fun.

Servant of Kali · Dec 14, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

My point exactly ogami.

I think after watching the last weekend we can see which classes and which skills require attention (eles, monks, warriors, mesmer - by far the most used classes, along with RaO but otherwise Ranger was MiA). I agree that Grenth is slightly overpowered but i dont agree with "lets nerf the skill to oblivion". Yea great, let's just add more forsaken classes in next chapters. Ritualist in Factions, Dervish in Nightfall, why bother with 2 classes in chapter4?

Monks in GvG are usually prot monks with Gift. That's great, but doesnt Dervish exactly counter that, ie metagame? Or old boon prots in the arenas? Is healing monk supposed to be forsaken and made into HP spam ele? Or LoD and that's all?

Dervish cant spike as a warrior, cant pressure like SF ele, seriously what do people expect him to do?

And, has anyone missed the fact that Dervish needs to be on the frontline, without the warrior armor?

Lorekeeper · Dec 14, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

all i have left to say is.

I cannot wait for the wintersday tournament to be over... and for Anets skill update to roll out.

its going to be interesting to see how many of our concerns are addressed
and whether Anet decides to change things we havent addressed at all.

i wonder how different the next ladder season will look compared to the last as a result of the update...

only a matter of time now.

ps .
good luck to PnH and ICE.

Bankai · Dec 14, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Yeah, I think they mainly did this Wintersday tournament to find out what skills they had to nerf. So we could have a full tournament with balanced (or actually, more balanced) skills.

Servant of Kali · Dec 14, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

I think they just messed this one. Whatever their intentions were it didnt work out the way they wanted.

Time to properly balance.

Riotgear · Dec 14, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Dervish cant spike as a warrior

I'd argue that one. Melandru + wearying strike or wounding strike followed by twin moon or mystic sweep are pretty painful. Heart of fury lets you deliver them quickly enough. If anything, the problem is mainly that Dervish attacks are TOO spikey, easily gimped by protective spirit.

Can't pressure as well as an SF ele? There is little that can at the moment.

Seamus Finn · Dec 14, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

It seems to me that so much here is talking about this skill or that skill overpowered without taking into consideration the role of that particular class and commonly found counters. I also seems that a great deal in here are complaints about gankers, dervs, and anti-monk. Again, it seems that these suggestions are made because people want monks to be very powerfull, and because people don’t want to spend effort on defense. And I also feel like people want to have nerfs in order to maintain certain class ratio’s in the metagame.

For example…Dervishes. Never mind that they are not that common (yet) in high-end PvP anyway. Dervs are utterly destroyed by certain common types of mesmers and necros. They suffer from the weaknesses of both warriors (to hexes, blinds, cripple) and spell-users (daze, low armor, Backfire, etc). Their defense outside of their great self-heals is minimal. And yet, people want to nerf the Avatar of Grenth (a skill which is in recharge every-other minute ) because can seriously hurt a monk…especially when the monk is followed by a derv and two other warriors. [s]Because monks should be able to easily survive the attention of 3 melee characters…[/sarcasm off] And people actually claim to want to nerf Mystic Regen…the best derv skill and primary way for dervs to stay alive (other than the Vital Boon / Signet of Pious Light combo). Why not nerf the mesmer and necro skills that destroy dervs? That was a rhetorical question…the answer to which is that dervs and mesmers and necros are designed to have some basic intra-class balance. Avatar of Grenth is there to tip the balance AWAY from monks. And I think the ultimate goal is to increase variety in the metagame, in order to make it more fun.

...Do you play a lot of RA... as in exclusively? Becuase if you are getting owned by dazed you probably aren't in a gvg and if you are getting owned by backfire you are probably stupid. Tipping the balance away from monks... yes to what? a rest rit? His 1 second heals and weapon spells will balance out a grenth spike for sure! Oh no wait... nothing will. That's why they need the nerf you see. No enchants = monks with no energy = your party is dead and theirs win cause they could basically keep a grenths dervish clean. This isn't a "profession issue" it's a build issue. Dervish are a very explosive class with many offensive options but none of them are being used besides grenth because grenth = easy kills if you can keep him clean. In this case he is clearly better than running a second warrior. Hell, 2 grenths may be better than two wars in a lot of builds.
Dervishes are actually pretty common in high end pvp for this reason.

stueyman2099 · Dec 14, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

It seems to me that so much here is talking about this skill or that skill overpowered without taking into consideration the role of that particular class and commonly found counters. I also seems that a great deal in here are complaints about gankers, dervs, and anti-monk. Again, it seems that these suggestions are made because people want monks to be very powerfull, and because people don’t want to spend effort on defense. And I also feel like people want to have nerfs in order to maintain certain class ratio’s in the metagame.

For example…Dervishes. Never mind that they are not that common (yet) in high-end PvP anyway. Dervs are utterly destroyed by certain common types of mesmers and necros. They suffer from the weaknesses of both warriors (to hexes, blinds, cripple) and spell-users (daze, low armor, Backfire, etc). Their defense outside of their great self-heals is minimal. And yet, people want to nerf the Avatar of Grenth (a skill which is in recharge every-other minute ) because can seriously hurt a monk…especially when the monk is followed by a derv and two other warriors. [s]Because monks should be able to easily survive the attention of 3 melee characters…[/sarcasm off] And people actually claim to want to nerf Mystic Regen…the best derv skill and primary way for dervs to stay alive (other than the Vital Boon / Signet of Pious Light combo). Why not nerf the mesmer and necro skills that destroy dervs? That was a rhetorical question…the answer to which is that dervs and mesmers and necros are designed to have some basic intra-class balance. Avatar of Grenth is there to tip the balance AWAY from monks. And I think the ultimate goal is to increase variety in the metagame, in order to make it more fun.

Nearly all of your statements are inconsistant with high end PvP theory. I'm not even going to go into specific points becuase there is not a single thing you posted that I agree with.

ogami_ito · Dec 15, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

...Do you play a lot of RA... as in exclusively?

Yes I admit it. Because I don't belong to a guild because I live in China, play the American game, and there are too few players on my time zone. (If I can't play the game for free in China when frigging The9 comes online, I probably should switch to Europe...they always have the Favor when I play at night) But I do watch the GvG battles. And my opinions are not invalid because I don't GvG. So don't go there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

...Becuase if you are getting owned by dazed you probably aren't in a gvg and if you are getting owned by backfire you are probably stupid.

I don't get owned by backfire or daze because I realize its on me. I also usually play a AoM/Wearying strike derv and take ( instead of Signet of Pius Light ) Pius Restoration. If I used the more energy efficient self-heal SoPL, I could not cast my vital enchants with backfire without taking extreme damage.

But my point does not change...dervs are easilly shut down by the same things that shut down warriors and are much-more hurt (compared to warriors) by things that shut down casters. Here is a partial list of things that work well against dervs (although different builds are more resistant to some things than others): enchant hate ,blind , blackout, empathy, hexes in general, edrain, cripple, spikes. weakness. The only things dervs are generally resistant against is degen and pressure. But that resistance fails big-time if also subject to enchant hate. An Avatar of Grenth build is rather like a sin...moderatly high damage (but not very high), with little resistance to anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

...Tipping the balance away from monks... yes to what? a rest rit?

Its not a "see-saw" balance system where one goes up and one goes down. Its a balance between 10 different classes...like a disc on a fulcrum and the 10 classes at equal points on the periphery. OK. that example is too complicated. So monks goes down a little. Dervs goes up. The mesmer and necro go up in response. That's another point I was trying to make. Some derv builds pose a particular threat to monks (every-other-minute anyway). What do you do about it? Nerf the derv? Hmmm...better idea... how about focusing a crip shot ranger on the derv? How about putting empathy, backfire, edrain, and one of many different powerful enchant annihlation spells? Weaken him so that his attacks do low damage? How about put a PbAoE bomber derv next to the monk to defend against mass-melee asualt? I "Derv-Bomber" next to the monk will seriously hurt all melee attackers and allow the monk to escape. Or, another AoM or AoG derv to take on the monk-hunters? And on this topic...what are you going to do about about sins with Shattering Assualt, which, if it hits, removes two enchants and does +150 damage, and has a recharge of 4 seconds? YOu know, it seems to me that ANET whats to make sure that the monk haters have some good tools to use.

And one more thing...even if I was getting owned by daze, I'm not stupid. Lets save the personal attack talk for our true enemies (Abaddon, Mhenlo, GWB, Osama Bin Ladden, and Paris Hilton)

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

empathy, backfire=bad.

blind<draw conditions. If grenth is up, you just spam draw so they can go to town. same with any other skill. You can play around grenth, and try to interrupt it, but it is a pain, kk? especially when they can keep it up pretty much indefinitely once they push you back and have flags under control.

Considering monks are the only things keeping teams alive, and nothing is even remotely comparable to them yet, the class needs to stay as strong as possible so that the only things that really need to be coming into play are skill, and if you can beat the energy out of them or beat their reflexes, not have an 'IWIN' button on your bar.

Makkert · Dec 15, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Song of Concentration
- even the worst teams in HA can cap an altar with it. just way to brainless for my taste. not overpowered, just too boring for a game that is supposed to be entertaining imho. suggested change to 'partymember' instead of 'ally'.

aside from that, the usual things that already have been mentioned by others in this thread.