Curse

Former Ruling · Dec 12, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

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The question is whether it's overpowered, not whether it's easy. If someone came up with an effective build around flarespam, would you call for a nerf on that too?

Actually alot of nerfs and buffs are not to make something "not overpowered" or "not suck" but simply to Diversify the meta.

If something has consumed the metagame to the point SF has it really does boil to too..if its too easy to use make people not want to use it. It doesn't matter if it is "overpowered" or not - people are tired of seeing it over and over.

Whether the skill itself needs to be touched is debatable (I actually think the skill itself is fine) but they WILL hit the build in some form (be it directly or indirectly) just so every guild doesn't run it like they are now.

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As for my lists...

I would like to see more buffing than nerfing in the next update. Bug fixes are welcome of course, and I don't mind if they tamper with some of the skills slightly decreasing dmg or anything like that.

But I think they did their Major nerfs for the season when the Paragon changes came out - thats about all that really needed to be destroyed. I'd hate to see some of the other big skills right now just be nerfed into nonexistance.

What if... · Dec 13, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I'm not completely sure about a searing flames nerf, but from what I've read thus far, no one disagrees with buffing the whole fire line to make searing flames less attractive. So why are people still arguing about it?

Xpl0iter · Dec 13, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

because according to every single of them, SF still needs to be nerfed because every one is using it. Once you buff the damn fire line, they will panic because of "OMFG FIRE ELE PWNAGE" crap.

Right now, every ons is using SF because of the pressure it brings along with the character, yet no one freakin mentioned even once about how many skills it takes to make that skill viable.

I have said it before, and i will repeat. Buff the Fire line Before u play "nerf this" with SF. When you see people having a choice in fire line, and they actualy start to consider other skills beside SF, your file line will sound more viable to me. Right now, its gimped.

Recall me, IWAY team. how many people used it because of the ease of skill in use?
How about vimway, or just blood spike?
Touch rangers any one? 2 skills made entire build.
How many people complained? what came along the way? it was Can't touch this. One profession had it, and every one stoped complaining about it.

There has been numerous occasions where people spammed one or two skills in order to do damage.

SS and arcane echo can't be forgotten anyway. ( PVE ofcourse ).

Riotgear · Dec 13, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

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Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

because according to every single of them, SF still needs to be nerfed because every one is using it. Once you buff the damn fire line, they will panic because of "OMFG FIRE ELE PWNAGE" crap.

As I said, it's roughly the same as the situation with thumpers before the Tiger's Fury and IB nerfs. Before, practically every team had one. After, they were still viable, but not practically mandatory.

And coincidentally, pretty much all of the builds you mentioned except blood spike ate a nerf. VIM got nerfed. IWAY got nerfed. Repeatedly. Then HA got changed to 6v6 and that pretty much killed it.

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How many people complained? what came along the way? it was Can't touch this. One profession had it, and every one stoped complaining about it.

Then CTT got nerfed into uselessness, making it no longer a valid excuse. Touch rangers got gimped when people learned to just run away from them and let their teammates kill them. People also developed such a seething hatred of them that they would pretty much target them first. :P

That and the player base of the build somehow managed to get even stupider. Stupider as in, don't know how to use the tab key any more.

Etrik · Dec 13, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

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Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

because according to every single of them, SF still needs to be nerfed because every one is using it. Once you buff the damn fire line, they will panic because of "OMFG FIRE ELE PWNAGE" crap.

Nah, they won't. It'll be on par with air in HA/TA/RA.

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Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Right now, every ons is using SF because of the pressure it brings along with the character, yet no one freakin mentioned even once about how many skills it takes to make that skill viable.

No, they're using it because it's a cookie-cutter build and because of the herd syndrome. Also, it takes 4 skills to make SF viable. [skill]Fire Attunement[/skill], [skill]Searing Flames[/skill], [skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill] and [skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill].

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Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

I have said it before, and i will repeat. Buff the Fire line Before u play "nerf this" with SF. When you see people having a choice in fire line, and they actualy start to consider other skills beside SF, your file line will sound more viable to me. Right now, its gimped.

Or nerf it, then buff the rest of fire. SF+overpowered fire = nono. And Soul Reaping, Water Magic, Inspiration, Fast Casting are just as gimped. Cry more.

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Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Recall me, IWAY team. how many people used it because of the ease of skill in use?
How about vimway, or just blood spike?
Touch rangers any one? 2 skills made entire build.
How many people complained? what came along the way? it was Can't touch this. One profession had it, and every one stoped complaining about it.

Recall you indeed. Blood spike is easy? I'd like to see you do a perfect blood spike. It takes about 3 months of continuous pvp with the same group of people to get that sort of coordination. And a touchie with just the 2 touches sucks. Big time. And alot of people complained, CTT was implemented, people still complain.

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Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

There has been numerous occasions where people spammed one or two skills in order to do damage.

Like.. since GW went gold?

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Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

SS and arcane echo can't be forgotten anyway. ( PVE ofcourse ).

O really? Desecrate, BR, AV, SV, ATB. You forgot about those, I guess.

All in all, get your facts straight.

tomcruisejr · Dec 13, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

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Originally Posted by Etrik

Blood spike is easy? I'd like to see you do a perfect blood spike. It takes about 3 months of continuous pvp with the same group of people to get that sort of coordination. And a touchie with just the 2 touches sucks. Big time. And alot of people complained, CTT was implemented, people still complain.

you won't be able to kill anything and you will /resign if the designated caller (assuming you got only 1 leetsauce caller in your team) error 7ed, even if you got 3+ months of continuous pvp with the same of group of people.

i've seen pure spike teams doing well in observer mode and they all resign when 1 drops. obviously, that's their caller.

Riotgear · Dec 13, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

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Originally Posted by Etrik

And Soul Reaping, Water Magic, Inspiration, Fast Casting are just as gimped. Cry more.

Reaper's Mark is Soul Reaping. Inspiration is gimped? Are you serious? Fast Casting lacks decent skills, but its tactical importance is completely undeniable.

None of those really pretend to be damage lines though. Well, except water, but you know my stance on that.

Xpl0iter · Dec 13, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

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Originally Posted by Etrik

Nah, they won't. It'll be on par with air in HA/TA/RA.

Are u telling me that the damage air spike has been pulling in game before NF was allowing guilds to use air spike builds? or did they prefer other damages over ele dmg in general?
If so, how does Air damage it self gets justified? I have seen mesmers creating havoc when compared to that of an ele.

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Originally Posted by Etrik

No, they're using it because it's a cookie-cutter build and because of the herd syndrome. Also, it takes 4 skills to make SF viable. [skill]Fire Attunement[/skill], [skill]Searing Flames[/skill], [skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill] and [skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill].

Every build in GW is a cookie cutter build. How many people used eles before nightfall in PVE without dual attunements? the number is siginificantly low.
Most elites were Energy support elites, thus, not allowing eles to have enough diversity in their line.

It took 2 skills to make SS viable. [skill]Arcane echo[/skill] and [skill]spiteful spirit[/skill]. Rest was just to make it even better or to support it further.
Most minnion masters used 90% identical skills. Cookie cutter build i assume or did every one just came up with that thought on their own?
Most PVP builds in HA were cookie cutter builds, or did every one concidently came to a common skill bar which lead to certain gimmick builds like those in past, such as IWAY, Vimway, Blood spike, OB spike, etc?
Every thing IS cookie cutting in GW.

My comment with regards to the number of skills being used to make SF viable was rhetorical. I know how many skills it took to make SF viable, and i definetly know that it takes half of the bar away from you. One or two counters on an SF ele can gimp the entire build.

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Originally Posted by Etrik

Or nerf it, then buff the rest of fire. SF+overpowered fire = nono. And Soul Reaping, Water Magic, Inspiration, Fast Casting are just as gimped. Cry more.

No, i would suggest to BUFF the fire line and nerf the SF at the same time to keep eles viable. Right now, SF happens to be their only pressure skill.

As far as Soul reaping goes, the skills were ADDED to the line to make it better, have a look at [skill]Reaper's Mark[/skill]
While this skill gives you energy, do not ignore its potential to degen.

Inspiration: You don't know what your talking about do you?

Water line, Typical Snares, Long term snares on specific foe and intermediate snares in Area. Damage is no where close. Energy intensive, and an ELE attribute, 'Nuff said.

Fast Casting: Is that why most me/E air spikers were considered better when compared to that of Ele primary? Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Etrik

Recall you indeed. Blood spike is easy? I'd like to see you do a perfect blood spike. It takes about 3 months of continuous pvp with the same group of people to get that sort of coordination. And a touchie with just the 2 touches sucks. Big time. And alot of people complained, CTT was implemented, people still complain.
Like.. since GW went gold?

Yes, it is very easy. It still doesn't change the fact that it is going to be the same skill over and over. Atleast we are straight on that one.

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Originally Posted by Etrik

O really? Desecrate, BR, AV, SV, ATB. You forgot about those, I guess.

All in all, get your facts straight.

No, i did not, they are same ol cookie cutter builds, i have used them, and so has every one else, i do not see your point.
It still doesn't change the fact that Arcane Echo and SS are the most important part of that build, while others are used in certain situations.
You can switch the rest arround depending on where your stepping.

Assuming the info above, my facts seems straight to me, i am wondering about yours at this point.

Eilsys · Dec 13, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I don't get the IWAY hate sometimes. The stupidest build (and easiest to use) was Dual Smite... you could have all the characters be premade, and you just mashed the buttons for your fame.

About skill changes... I'd really like a buff to Boon Signet. Right now it's just garbage. And how about a 5 energy cost for SoD instead of 10?

Etrik · Dec 13, 2006, 11:40 AM // 11:40

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Originally Posted by Eilsys

I don't get the IWAY hate sometimes. The stupidest build (and easiest to use) was Dual Smite... you could have all the characters be premade, and you just mashed the buttons for your fame.

About skill changes... I'd really like a buff to Boon Signet. Right now it's just garbage. And how about a 5 energy cost for SoD instead of 10?

1.) IWAY=Mashing of the button that corresponds to IWAY!
2.) Boon Signet = made for bonders, nobody else. It's like asking for a buff to scribe's insight..
3.) SoD is fine @ 10e. It still sees use sometimes. 5e would make it too spammable > imba > nerf. What's the point? 2 weeks of overpowered SoD? Yay.

Now, on to the other 3 people who've replied. Oy vey!

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Originally Posted by .defekt

Ell oh ell.

A monkey could do bloodspike. Don't act as though it's difficult.

I didn't act as though/say it's difficult. I said a flawless one is hard to pull off, as with any spike. If you can grab a pug in HA and do 5 flawless blood spikes in a row, I /bow down to you.

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Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

you won't be able to kill anything and you will /resign if the designated caller (assuming you got only 1 leetsauce caller in your team) error 7ed, even if you got 3+ months of continuous pvp with the same of group of people.

i've seen pure spike teams doing well in observer mode and they all resign when 1 drops. obviously, that's their caller.

Uh oh, leetsauce, ugly word there. And ofc you would resign if your caller err7'd, if you don't have another competent caller on the team ofc. And it's not obviously their caller. It depends on what kinda spike it is, they may not have enough damage (read: horrible Invoke Lightning+Orb combo spike, which can be dodged/pre-protted/infused/glimmered [no, that's not a word - 'til now!]; even though IL+LO isn't the best example, teams running it can flawless it alot of times due to incompetent (read: heroway) builds that don't dodge orbs -.-) to keep spiking. And if they could with one person less, it was indeed prolly their caller.

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

Reaper's Mark is Soul Reaping. Inspiration is gimped? Are you serious? Fast Casting lacks decent skills, but its tactical importance is completely undeniable.

None of those really pretend to be damage lines though. Well, except water, but you know my stance on that.

I know RM is in SR. That and Signet of Lost Souls (which needs a slight nerf, imho) are the only worthwhile skills in that line tho. And I meant those lines are gimped as in nobody runs primarily *those* lines. People can go 16 Fire Magic and still own in PvP. Hell, Lava Font + Fire Storm can wipe an altar, because people are too damned stupid to step out of AoEs!. And I don't know your stance on Water Magic, do tell ^^.

To Xpl0iter: I'm too tired to reply to your entire post right now and I'm going to sleep, but I will say this - my build isn't a cookie cutter build. Take that. Oh, and I know of all the useful (too few imba left) skills in the inspiration line, seeing how the only thing I've been playing a lot in PvP lately is monk. Well, up to now, when I fell in love with my weird Mo/W Blessed Assassin Annoyer build <3. Will probs answer your entire post when I wake up. If I don't forget

G'night.

yesitsrob · Dec 13, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Spiritual Pain - 2 second cast? Reduction on damage? Only Reduce the recharge on hitting spirits as opposed to instant?

Searing Flames - I don't think it's that bad :\ 3 second recharge maybe. They don't do much till VoD when npcs have a group hug anyway

Avatar of Grenth - I like the above 50% idea

Rampage As One - Stance plx. End when pet dies. 25% Attack.

Spoil Victor - 20 Second Recharge

Zealous Benediction - Slighty Smaller Heal or 6 Second Recharge maybe. It's sort of ammusing how the best heal skill I can think of right now is in the protection line. (please don't put it in the crappy healing line though ^^)

Shadow of Haste - Something. It shold be fricking elite how it is.

Feigned Neutrallity - 40+ Second recharge

Change the crappy VoD mechanics

Remove Isle of Jade. I just hate it.

Crushing Blow - I agree with rep, why the hell is this not core, I don't agree with every useful skill having to be core, but there is no sodding alternative to this except run a different weapon all together.

Blinding Surge - Make less gay. Make Sight Beyond Sight not in the fricking primary attribute of rits :| Something. It's brainless and boring.

Freezing Gust - 2 Second Cast? Higher Recharge? Maybe nothing is wrong with it... I think there is >_> It's made a lot of water snares minus deep freeze a bit obsolete.

Make the bodyguard that is reachable outside of gates on that map with stairs to nowhere not reachable from outside the gates.

Give Fear Me a recharge.

RoF maybe... that seems weird though, but it is and always has been incredibly good.

Diversion counters everything, it's pointless in saying that it's a solution to something when it's largely a solution to most things except res signet

Servant of Kali · Dec 13, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Check sM on Observer mode

Having fun with Shadow of Haste, FN and Paradox. 8 players, no healer, all with A or /A. Winning games in 2-9min. Hilarious.

As much as i love the build and watching it - nerf pls.

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Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Avatar of Grenth - I like the above 50% idea

I dont like it. Increase energy cost if you have to, but 50% ideas will kill this elite. I myself have played Dervish a lot, and 50% is a joke, worthless completely. It's to kill a bonder sure, but how many bonders you see in GvG?

Pls stop suggesting nerfs which kill the skill. If Grenth was 25e that is enough.
Yes i agree the skill is strong but it doesnt mean it should be killed.

Besides, how many have even played Grenth compared to Warriors? If Grenth is so overpowered how come tons of teams run Warriors instead of a single Dervish?
Nerf Shadow Prison too if you're nerfing Grenth ty.

yesitsrob · Dec 13, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

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I dont like it. Increase energy cost if you have to, but 50% ideas will kill this elite. I myself have played Dervish a lot, and 50% is a joke, worthless completely. It's to kill a bonder sure, but how many bonders you see in GvG?

I don't think it kills it, I think it just makes warrior trains slightly less unstoppable. Considering the target will get healed anyway chances are it will be above 50% quite frequently. As it is this makes warrior trains mindless, you don't have to switch targets at all. Just pound on some guy until the monks can't keep up. This isn't anything to do with warriors vs dervish, this is to do with one dervish build increasing the damage output of your melee guys so goddamn much because nothing can be protted, with Wild Blow and prot Strike on these dervishes they are removing enchants so often that they are laughing at any other form of enchant removal.

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Nerf Shadow Prison too if you're nerfing Grenth ty.

Why? when shadow prison has nothing on AoG, it's completely different too for a start, and it's the mesmers as much as anything which make the damage of that spike so good. Which I think sort of goes back to proposed spiritual pain nerfs, which no one is really stupid enough to argue with, thankfully.

Servant of Kali · Dec 13, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

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I don't think it kills it

It kills it. Above 50% is so utterly useless that i cant think of 1 single reason why anyone would use that skill in GvG. Ergo, it kills it. Just curious, have you actually ever played Dervish, or simply base evaluation from watching Observer mode?

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As it is this makes warrior trains mindless, you don't have to switch targets at all

And? The fact that you dont have to switch targets doesnt mean it's mindless. Spike teams switch targets and it's totally mindless.

There are plenty of anti-skills. Blinding Surge does *aoe* blind, and just about everyone runs it.

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This isn't anything to do with warriors vs dervish

Yes it is, if you nerf the only offensive Dervish build then what's the point? You want the class to become another Ritualist?

tomcruisejr · Dec 13, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

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Originally Posted by Xasew

You must be kidding.

the guy is right. dual smite was button mashing with lots of protection. iway was button mashing with less protection. obviously, each member of the iway team must have a sense of self survival while in dual smite, better defense delivered by monks. so what's harder to run? of course its harder to run an almost defenseless build successfully coz it's either make or break. if you make it all the time, that means something. if you break all the time, you better run dual smite coz at least someone will heal your team and continue your button mashing.

Bankai · Dec 13, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Dual smite was button mashing indeed, but it had more skill than searing flames IMO. Yes, you needed to spam buttons, but that was just because of the build. Your other 6 skills couldn't be button mashed. While in SF, they can actually.

And I agree with Tomcruisejr, IWAY requires more individual skill than dual smite for example.

stueyman2099 · Dec 13, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

@Bloodspike being easy:
Yep, it really is. Believe it or not, any build takes time to master, not just bloodspike.

@Iway hate:
Don't kid yourself, this is by far one of the easiest builds to play in GW history. Dual Smite can be played mindlessly, but good players won't same thing goes for IWAY. The difference? IWAY is much easier to play with out knowing what you're doing.

My nerf pics:

Searing Flames: 3s recharge
Skill is borderline overpowered, it's only gimmicks like Spearmens 6 SF build that really warrent this change.

Avatar of Grenth: Attacks cost an additional 3..1 energy with 1 at say, 14ish spec.

Rampage as One: Stance OR ends when pet dies.

Spoil Victor: 15s recharge

Reapers Mark: 5 pip degen max.

Blinding Surge: 6s recharge. No AoE blind. Ever. Hate. Hate. Hate.

Feigned Nutrality: 30s recharge

Deadly Paradox: 50% failure rate with Deadly Arts 7 or less.

Shadow of Haste: hmmm... tough one. 90 second recharge? Lose all energy when this stance ends?

Shield of Absorbtion: 15s recharge.

Spiritual Pain: Less damage.

Wrastrels Demise: 2s cast time.

Well, thats all for now.

Riotgear · Dec 13, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

I know RM is in SR. That and Signet of Lost Souls (which needs a slight nerf, imho) are the only worthwhile skills in that line tho.

SR also has more effect than just the skills in it. None of the elemental lines do. SR provides a hefty supply of energy if you have nature rituals expiring, or better yet, someone using jagged/TOD.

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And I meant those lines are gimped as in nobody runs primarily *those* lines.

Some lines aren't exactly meant to be run as primary. Most of Inspiration can be run effectively with only a 9-point attribute investment. Same with Energy Storage, really.

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because people are too damned stupid to step out of AoEs!.

Being able to kill stupid players with something does not make it viable. I can kill stupid players with mark of rodgort, conjure flame, and a wand.

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And I don't know your stance on Water Magic, do tell ^^.

My stance is that the damage component is so bad that it's practically a liability for the line. It's as if they think damage+snare is so badass that it warrants massive recharge times and energy costs which aren't even remotely affordable without running an energy elite. Kind of like how you're paying 5 extra energy for Enervating Charge to do damage and cause weakness when you probably only want one of the two effects.

For comparison, Ice Spikes gives roughly 5.6 dmg/energy on a 60 AL target. Shard Storm gives 5.75. Lightning Hammer, a skill that is almost legendary in its inefficiency, gives 5.48.

Yes, there's a snare attached. But when you don't need the snare, you're paying for it anyway. This is made worse by the afforementioned lack of viability in running a second elemental line for damage. And then of course, having an adjacent-area snare apparently not only justifies having only 2/3 the damage of fireball and costing 50% more, but also requires a 15-second recharge. You get the idea.

I often suspect that the devs balance water around siege golems and kappas (in large numbers of course) instead of players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Deadly Paradox: 50% failure rate with Deadly Arts 7 or less.

Requiring 8 deadly arts is.... ack.

An interesting possibility would be to just increase the recharge. Serpent's Quickness takes 45 seconds, for example, DP only ten. Granted, SQ is more versatile, but... ten?

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Shadow of Haste: hmmm... tough one. 90 second recharge? Lose all energy when this stance ends?

Or suffer skill disabling?

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Spiritual Pain: Less damage.

Wrastrels Demise: 2s cast time.

2 sec cast time on Demise seems kind of excessive. Why would you take it over e-burn with that? Then again, the whole concept of Demise is bad. Going off the description from the preview, it's as if they expected people to use Wastrel's Worry, Demise, and Overload/interrupt or something stupid like that.

Perhaps give SP a 2-sec cast?

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Freezing Gust - 2 Second Cast? Higher Recharge? Maybe nothing is wrong with it... I think there is >_> It's made a lot of water snares minus deep freeze a bit obsolete.

See above. It made them obsolete because it ditched the entire concept of using water for damage. Ironically, it worked.

EDIT -- As an example of how attunements can be fixed, consider something like:

Fire Attunement - Lose all attunement enchantments. For 36...55, you are attuned to fire. You gain 1 energy plus 30% of the energy cost of the skill each time you use Fire Magic, and 20% of the energy cost of the skill each time you use Water, Earth or Air Magic.

Elemental Attunement - Lose all attunement enchantments. For 30...50 seconds, you are attuned to Air, Fire, Water, and Earth. You gain 75% of the base Energy cost of the skill each time you use magic associated with any of those elements.

yesitsrob · Dec 13, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Deep Freeze is still awesome for AoE damage, it has a huge area and really shines at VoD. I was referring to shard storm really. I used to like that but now there is no point in it.

Servant of Kali · Dec 13, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

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Avatar of Grenth: Attacks cost an additional 3..1 energy with 1 at say, 14ish spec.

To be more precise: "If an enchantment is removed, you lose 3..1 energy"
This would be ok addition and it wouldnt kill the skill.