Curse

Symbol · Dec 12, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

No, I've played tons of damage focused elementalist builds, dual attune fire was not worthwhile. To get good damage output you relied almost entirely on your opponents getting to AoE clusterfscks that you could take advantage with flame burst because that was the big nuke on that bar-but that character was totally inferior to a warrior when that wasn't happening

He can't spike like a warrior, he doesn't have the durability of a warrior (bad when you have to get up close and personal), he doesn't have the single target dps of a warrior, he's vulnerable to enchant stripping, horrible at dealing with kiting (thank you retarded PbAoE aftercast!) and generally isn't all that hot (no pun intended).

Searing flames is easy to use-so what? The question is whether it's overpowered, not whether it's easy. If someone came up with an effective build around flarespam, would you call for a nerf on that too?

You want to see diversity, start buffing the rest of the fire line. If mind blast was a 3/4sec cast and immolate a 2sec recharge, for example, I guarantee you that you'd start seeing mind blasters come into play. If Savannah heat was "in the area" instead of nearby, I guarantee that you'd see people bringing that into PvP. If the AoE DoTs were worth a damn at area denial you'd see people putting them on their bars.

You don't create diversity by removing options, but by adding them.

HolyHawk · Dec 12, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Won't quote ya xploiter because it's kinda big, but anyways, my reply to sf.

My first char is an Ele yes, and I do understand what changes it has been through out time; actually, my farmer is her as well, so I know what can be potent and what is totally useless. I do know SF is too powerfull as it is, but not because of the dmg since that can be worked around, but because of the burning duration. These, concerning pvp. But when I look at the pve side, especially this domain of anguish place, I guess the skill is fine for it. If you decrease the burning duration it means you won't be dealing the dmg if burning so often. That is already a kinda of balance.

I'm not sure why they made elementalists skills so attracting in NF, but I can guess it's because most of them have always been complaning how weak their class was as a pure direct dmg dealer, and I kinda agreed. I do believe the skill needs balance, but I also believe it's vastly used because other skills are not that charming. It's not like you can be undecided. But my personal way of balancing is to power up skills that are not picked.

SF and Rampage seemed to have come together, and I first saw PnH using it, but I have no idea who introduced it to the pvp. The lack of guts people have to test weird stuff in gvg made them both become the flavor, and it became popular because people just copy what they see top guilds using. My guild quickly adapted to not be owned by the pressure both of these setups can make alone and together, and we have been dealing with it without worries by now. Keep in mind that there are other ways to deal with them other than just fighting face to face...

I also know how devastating can be a team of 7 SF eles and an extra anything in gvg, but I won't discuss that because we are under the effect of the locked ladder, and I haven't seen anyone using it when it was open. Spearman is a really clever guild that knows what to use and which ocasion to use; they are not abusing of broken skills, rather, they are using the maximum a skill can offer, and as a bonus, they have fun and they can be entertaining.

As a final note, each poster in this thread is just stating their opinions, as I did. There's no need for you to make anyone look silly or clueless about what they say like that. You can discuss what to do or not to do with the skill without contesting my knowledge. I got my ass owned a few times when it came out, but I learned how to deal with it, and now I believe that other things should take priority, maybe because I still haven't learn how to deal with them as well.

Servant of Kali · Dec 12, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Symbol, you forgot to mention that warriors have zillion of counters in the game. For instance, Aegis, Wards etc are quite popular. Can you tell me of a 15e spells which makes spells fail on the whole team for 10/30 sec? You cant even use Ward against Searing because then they do 4x as much dmg. GG

You mention the DPS of warrior. Have you completely forgot that warrior NEVER does the theoretical DPS it can do? Kiting lowers warrior dps, tons of defense stances and enchantments lower dps, blind makes it do near zero dps, and cripple rockbottoms dps as well.

What about eles? Oh wait, the mesmers are not anti-caster these days. They are spikers. Spiritual Pain etc. GG. Mesmers have been nerfed 15x by now, and NO ONE uses mesmers as anticaster nor anti-melee. Mesmers in GvG are used for spike or pure degen (conjure phantasm, images). Necromancers are used as antiwarriors and even anticasters more so than mesmers (Spoil Victor does both, better than backfire).

Unlike in the beginning of GW, counter skills are not nearly as good as direct dmg skills. Considering that counter skills are more situational by nature, it makes even less sense to use them. Especially since a good deal of counters are hexes. Divert GG.

In conclusion, spare us the warrior vs ele dps. You dont see 6 warriors rampaging around, except for the very short time that fearway emerged until everyone started taking counters (wow). As for searing, everyone has been running it whole age, most people dying of boredom. But now, when ANet doubled GvG rewards during the weekend, boredom was put aside and fun was sacrificed for wins. The weekend showed what is blatantly overpowered and lame. And most of all, boring. You can say how Searing is fine, but facta loquuntur. The facts speak for themselves. You have your theory, but the reality doesnt backup your theory. 80%+ guild halls during the weekend (in Observer mode) were Burning and Jade. If this is how GvG is going to look like, it's time to find a new game. HA died a year ago anyway.

Symbol · Dec 12, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Symbol, you forgot to mention that warriors have zillion of counters in the game. For instance, Aegis, Wards etc are quite popular. Can you tell me of a 15e spells which makes spells fail on the whole team for 10/30 sec? You cant even use Ward against Searing because then they do 4x as much dmg. GG

You mention the DPS of warrior. Have you completely forgot that warrior NEVER does the theoretical DPS it can do? Kiting lowers warrior dps, tons of defense stances and enchantments lower dps, blind makes it do near zero dps, and cripple rockbottoms dps as well.

This is a bullshit argument. Why? Because a) those counters are not free, you spend time and effort shutting that warrior down, and b) caster shutdowns are generally just as harsh. But people don't bring caster hate because casters are generally not a damage threat. Also the number of counters available means precisely squat, it only matters how good they are

Quote:

What about eles? Oh wait, the mesmers are not anti-caster these days. They are spikers. Spiritual Pain etc. GG. Mesmers have been nerfed 15x by now, and NO ONE uses mesmers as anticaster nor anti-melee. Mesmers in GvG are used for spike or pure degen (conjure phantasm, images). Necromancers are used as antiwarriors and even anticasters more so than mesmers (Spoil Victor does both, better than backfire).

If people don't bring mesmers that's their problem. Mesmers have the tools to totally cripple casters. I'm sick of hearing this double standard, people think it's perfectly ok that you're required to bring wards, guardian, aegis, blind, cripple, etc to deal with warriors yet they wail to high heaven the moment anyone even suggests bringing a dom mesmer for anti-caster duty (not that a SP spiker doesn't have plenty of slots free to deal with searing flames, heh).

Please.

Quote:

Unlike in the beginning of GW, counter skills are not nearly as good as direct dmg skills. Considering that counter skills are more situational by nature, it makes even less sense to use them. Especially since a good deal of counters are hexes. Divert GG.

And melee hate isn't situational? Right...

Quote:

In conclusion, spare us the warrior vs ele dps. You dont see 6 warriors rampaging around, except for the very short time that fearway emerged until everyone started taking counters (wow). As for searing, everyone has been running it whole age, most people dying of boredom. But now, when ANet doubled GvG rewards during the weekend, boredom was put aside and fun was sacrificed for wins. The weekend showed what is blatantly overpowered and lame. And most of all, boring. You can say how Searing is fine, but facta loquuntur. The facts speak for themselves. You have your theory, but the reality doesnt backup your theory. 80%+ guild halls during the weekend (in Observer mode) were Burning and Jade. If this is how GvG is going to look like, it's time to find a new game. HA died a year ago anyway.

You see people running it over the weekend because you get quick games that way (teams of softies blasting each other with high powered AoE nukes, wtf do you expect?). Judge skill balance on the one weekend where people are playing to farm champ points-that will give you an accurate assessment of what to fix.

On a more general note:

This whole discussion centering around nerfs is boring to me. Nerfs are necessary evils-they don't open up new avenues of play, but rather force people away from existing ones. IMO very few of the new skills actually deserve nerfs, and the ones that do only need mild tweaking.

I'd much rather focus the discussion on what buffs to make to existing skill lines. For example, this whole SF controversy aside-I'd like to see people post their ideas on how to encourage a greater diversity of fire elementalist builds in PvP.

What would you change?

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

the fact that you constantly compare the fire ele to a warrior means i cant take your post seriously.

and since i started the post... i should remind you that my intentions of skill balancing are to get rid of the skills that are imbalanced. Searing flames is not overpowered... and only requires a slight reduction in recharge times. If we really believed it was overpowered we would be proposing far more extensive changes than a simple 1 or 2 second increase in recharge.

I dont want to repeat this again...

there are skills which are imbalanced because they make choices for us in terms of what we can use.
changes to these skills are needed because we want them balanced in line with other alternatives so we have the CHOICE to run other things.

Just because you cannot play a dual fire attunement fire elementalist well... does not mean dual fire elementalists are ineffective. CAN you not see the whole point of my argument?!

If one player says he has no difficulty being effective running something like a dual attune fire ele... and another player says the opposite. Doesnt it make things pretty obvious?

furthermore
Fire eles ARE NOT meant to compare to warriors... nor are they meant to compare to AIR eles... nor WATER eles nor dervish... nor paragon.... they are not meant to be compared to ANYTHING in the game. Fire eles have a job... to inflict relatively high dmg over an area of effect... air eles have a job... to focus extremely high dmg to a single target... water eles have a job... to snare multiple targets.

Do you hear people complaining that they cant kill entire teams with their air ele? Do you hear water eles complaining that they do no hugely significant damage?

How do you counter air eles? prot spirit...
how do you counter water eles? Spread out and remove the hexes
how do you counter fire eles? spread out.

if you face an opponent who has the intelligence to spread out when they see you are a fire ele... ITS NO FAULT OF THE GAME that youre effectiveness is severely reduced.

If you face an opponent who has horrible positioning ITS NO FAULT OF THE GAME if you are able to kill or dmg severely... multiple targets on their team.

Every class must have its strengths and weaknesses... if you find that you cannot bring the strength of your class to bear... its not the fault of the game that this is happening. Its either your ability as a team or the ability of the enemy team that is the deciding factor.

that really is the last thing i have to say... like i said, youre continual comparison between the fire ele and warrior is enough to stop anyone discussing this further with you.

Savannah Heat does NOT need buffing... it does ridiculous amounts of aoe dmg... if you have trouble keeping people within the nearby aoe... snare them! You really are starting to sound like you want the game to be full of insta kill skills which require no teamwork nor strategy to execute. No single build should be expected to kill anything. There are 5 or 7 other players in the team for a reason.

stop complaining that you cant do damage playing a fire ele build apart from SF spamming robot build of "i can play with one hand behind my back"ness,

its really not doing you any favours.

Symbol · Dec 12, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Spreading out only requires that your opponents are good enough players to watch their positioning. It has no cost in terms of time, energy, and skill slots.

Your long winded diatribe about me "not being good" at playing the dual attunement ele aside, your argument boils down to "fire should be the damage line that people use to take advantage of the stupidity of whoever they're playing".

The fact that you think this is a viable concept to build a skill line around only exposes your cluelessness, not mine.

Riotgear · Dec 12, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If mind blast was a 3/4sec cast and immolate a 2sec recharge, for example, I guarantee you that you'd start seeing mind blasters come into play. If Savannah heat was "in the area" instead of nearby, I guarantee that you'd see people bringing that into PvP. If the AoE DoTs were worth a damn at area denial you'd see people putting them on their bars.

How would 1/4 sec off the activation time really help Mind Blast? Part of the problem with MB is that it needs to be cast a lot, and it's too weak as part of a damage routine for that. Compare to SS/DB or Dragon Slash, which both really HURT in addition to providing fuel for the next attack.

Immolate doesn't really need a 2-sec recharge, it just needs a straight buff to the damage and burn time. It has a nice niche as a powerful spell that isn't really "spikey" enough to warrant a huge energy cost, and it's reliable. The recharge can also be mitigated with HSR stuff.

Savannah heat is finding uses, more as a sort of spike than anything. It doesn't need an AOE increase, any sort of snare works fine, especially deep freeze.

The best thing the other AOE abilities could get is a simple area increase. Adjacent on a DOT nuke blows. Sandstorm is fairly threatening even when the conditional damage isn't triggering, which shows that there is a place for them. Who knows, maybe even Fire Storm could be viable if it got a damage buff and was increased to nearby.

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If you were to buff all other skills to be on par with searing, people would still bitch about the other elements.

Because the other elements still have issues?

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Do think of the consequences in PVE, and not just PVP, before nerfing skills.

Increasing other nukes to nearby would be a tremendous boon to PvE play as well. I'll say it again: Nerf SF. Buff fire. That and Mark of Rodgort is still viable in PvE as a way to keep burning permanently up.

Elementalists can run elites that give them a virtually unlimited supply of energy. If they can't pump out decent damage with unlimited energy, they need a buff.

Quote:

you seem to forget that before nightfall, there were lots of starburst oriented teams.

In HA maybe. Anywhere else, pushing a 60AL character into melee range of a group is basically asking for the little number above the red arrow to increase by fifteen. Who knows, maybe you can bring a death necro and turn the Starburst eles into something more useful: Putrid explosion!

Quote:

water eles have a job... to snare multiple targets.

There are three water spells that snare multiple targets. One is extremely unlikely to even do that. One is a point-blank. One requires zero investment in water magic to be effective.

Quote:

Do you hear water eles complaining that they do no hugely significant damage?

Yes, you do hear that, because the damage isn't just not "hugely significant", it is extremely BAD. Water spells are extremely expensive and take an extremely long time to recharge considering the kind of payload they provide. There isn't really a reason to bring a "water ele" when you can bring a cripshot ranger, who not only does more damage, but can also bring utility such as interrupts and energy denial.

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Ill repeat this mantra until im tired and bored.

Fire eles are made for primarily for one job. To inflict medium-high dmg over an area of effect.

They are not meant to provide a quick burst of extreme damage in a spike... they are not meant to be able to tank dmg like warrior... they are not meant to kite around dodging physical attacks like rangers or assasins can... they are not meant to snare like water eles... they are not meant to be immune to enchant stripping.

They are made to inflict aoe damage. Accept that and deal with it. They are incredibly good at inflicting aoe damage... as long as the enemy is stupid enough to stay in the area of effect... or you have taken steps to make them stay put. (why not bring a water ele and coordinate deep freeze with savannah heat?)

YES. Thats exactly my point. How else would fire eles be balanced when you take into account their purpose? You want instant unkitable aoe dmg of the magnitude of 200+ dmg? How ridiculous would that be? It was already difficult to prot the whole team against the OLD chain lightning spike... but imagine a spike of 5 fire eles who inflicted 200+dmg unkitable damage to nearby foes. You have a totally unrealistic expectation of the skill line!

and to be honest, its like complaining that the skills in the sword line cant knock people down. Or complaining that healing monks cant remove conditions.

Accept the role that fire eles have... if it becomes too difficult to maximise the potential of a fire ele in the wide open spaces that you might find in pvp... tough luck... work around it... if u cant solve the problem of grouped up enemies kiting dont use a fire ele.

Or why not just pick the Burning island as your guildhall... it contains many chokepoints and therefore the INTENDED weakness of fire skills is reduced by the nature of the environment, do you think its a coincidence that the island was named in conjunction with FIRE?

If you want to run a fire ele who specialises in a certain role... you must accept that specialising this way will limit the flexibility of your build.

i just find it really frustrating that you seem to be arguing that fire eles should not have an inherent weakness as they currently do.

ALL classes do.

If i run an air ele mainteam... a simple prot spirit or interrupt or a kiting target might counter its effectiveness in delivering its dmg. But if i face a team who cant bring all these counters against me... i can fulfil my job.

If i run a tainted necro in my build, i wont enjoy fighting against a split team because the necro cant be in 2 places at once. But if i face a team that doesnt split... i can fulfil my intended job.

If i run a hammer warrior, i wont enjoy trying to kd people camping ward of stability or paragons spamming brace yourself. But if i face a team without these counters... i can KD all i want.

If i run a monk, i wont enjoy having diversion and shame spammed on me every time i try to cast a spell. But if i face a team with no mesmers... im a happy bunny.

Much the same way... if i run a fire ele... i wont enjoy fighting against a team in a guildhall which has huge wide open spaces. But if we face a team who crowd together in a guildhall which has chokepoints.. im going to have a blast.

Every build has the ability to operate extremely well under optimal conditions. And if you want to play a build whos effectiveness relies on these optimal conditions you need to be prepared for disappointment because pvp is not predictable and you will rarely be able to fight under optimal conditions on a regular basis. Thats why the top 20 guilds run builds with huge flexibility built into almost all their players. And if the fire ele cannot fit the requirement of flexibility... thats the price of being what they are.

yes i had so much more fun playing a dual attunement fire ele compared to any other fire ele build thats existed since. Yes i faced teams who spread out and i made it very clear to my team that i wasnt able to fulfil my damage potential. But on the other hand i faced teams who allowed me to fulfil this potential. Its a risk you have to accept if you choose to run a fire ele. But my god i had fun when i killed entire teams within seconds... and boy i got frustrated when smarter teams ran away from me when i saw them balling up.

And thats why its difficult to include them in gvg builds. Because their effectiveness is very situational.

doesnt mean they need to be buffed!

Its the role theyve been given.

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Yes, you do hear that, because the damage isn't just not "hugely significant", it is extremely BAD. Water spells are extremely expensive and take an extremely long time to recharge considering the kind of payload they provide. There isn't really a reason to bring a "water ele" when you can bring a cripshot ranger, who not only does more damage, but can also bring utility such as interrupts and energy denial.

how can you say there isnt really a reason to bring a water ele in place of a crip shot? have you not watched any gvgs for like... ever?

If a water ele complains that he doesnt do any damage. He/She doesnt accept the role that water eles are meant to play. The water skill line is made the way it is for a reason...

Water eles are extremely good at keeping single targets snared 24/7... with the introduction of freezing gust in nightfall a water ele can do so without a huge cost of energy or a huge committment in water magic. Not only can they achieve this while bringing other types of party support, they can also snare multiple targets at crucial times. Water eles dont need to snare multiple targets all the time. Deep freeze in particular is a very situational skill... but when the situation comes... no other non-elite skill in the game achieves the same effect.

So maybe i should change my statement to... water eles are extremely good at snaring single targets and moderately good at snaring multiple targets.

Really cant compare a water ele to a crip shot ranger simple because a crip shot ranger cant provide party wide support like HP and extinguish. And the reasons a team might take a crip shot ranger over a water ele would not be based on the rangers ability to snare because both do the job very well.... but on the rangers ability to gank and solo behind enemy lines. but if the team needs aoe snares and party support, the water ele fulfils this role and was designed to do so. You cannot bluntly state that a crip shot is better than a water ele... they both bring very different capabilities to the table. Snaring targets is only one of them. Just look at the number of guilds who run Water hybrid Emo flag runners. Look at the number of guilds who run crip shot rangers as the flag runner... its not because the water ele is so significantly better at running flags or snaring.

why do people keep on comparing totally unrelated classes?

first fire eles with warriors.
now water eles with crip shot rangers.

keep em coming!

Thom Bangalter · Dec 12, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

What about eles? Oh wait, the mesmers are not anti-caster these days. They are spikers. Spiritual Pain etc. GG. Mesmers have been nerfed 15x by now, and NO ONE uses mesmers as anticaster nor anti-melee. Mesmers in GvG are used for spike or pure degen (conjure phantasm, images). Necromancers are used as antiwarriors and even anticasters more so than mesmers (Spoil Victor does both, better than backfire).

wtb diversion?

As for 6 warriors, that's a stretch...but 4? completely plausible. Not to mention loads of other physicals running around. Elementalists can do only a few things well, don't take away the only skill that makes them viable for pressure.

Riotgear · Dec 12, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Water eles are extremely good at keeping single targets snared 24/7...

So are cripshots...

Quote:

Really cant compare a water ele to a crip shot ranger simple because a crip shot ranger cant provide party wide support like HP and extinguish.

I wouldn't call someone an "air ele" just because they have blinding flash on their bar. "Water ele" seems to imply someone that uses water magic as the main way they project threat on the battlefield. As opposed to projecting it with heal party spam.

Quote:

why do people keep on comparing totally unrelated classes?

first fire eles with warriors.
now water eles with crip shot rangers.

keep em coming!

Because the main role of warriors is to kill shit. The main role of a fire ele is to kill shit.

The main role of a water ele is to keep stuff constantly snared. The main role of a cripshot is to interrupt shit. Their second role is to keep stuff constantly snared. The main role of a "water ele hybrid" is not exactly snaring.

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Because the main role of warriors is to kill shit. The main role of a fire ele is to kill shit.

Ive never seen such a simple and inept summary of the role of the warrior and the role of a fire ele. It astounds me that you believe that this sort of description can contribute to a constructive discussion about skill balance.

If i follow your line of thinking... wat differentiates dervish from warriors? Air eles from Fire eles? They all want to kill shit right? So does that mean we can draw comparisons between them? Smiters want to kill shit too i assume... so can i compare a smiter to a warrior? Hell even ritualists want to kill stuff too! They must be the same as warriors and fire eles then! Heck... all the classes are the same cos they just wanna kill shit at the end of the day right?

comedy.

before this thread gets sidetracked by even more wonderful summaries of the role of warriors and fire eles... can we get back on topic and see if anyone actually has any constructive suggestions to make apart from complaining and making general demands on Anet.

ive yet to see in the last 2 pages anything i can add or alter on the first post regarding CRUCIAL skill balances we would like to see.

thanks to those who have made clear suggestions!

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Shadow Prison:Elite Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 4...9 seconds, that foe moves 66% slower. 50% failure rate with 5 deadly arts or less.
>Also: increase energy cost to 10. Make it somewhat comparable to the other sin elites.

Spiritual pain: Spell. Target foe takes 10...82 damage, and all nearby foes take 15...63 damage. For each foe damaged in this way, Spiritual pain takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge. This skill recharges instantly if it hits a spirit.

I like these 2 suggestions very much indeed.

But maybe the 10 energy on shadow prison is a little too much... im not sure.

The failure idea is nice.... makes warriors have to put points into 3 attributes or even 4 depending if they take heal sig or not.

Spiritual pain... extra 10 seconds is maybe a little too much >< if it hits 3 people thats a 60 second recharge and at VoD if u target mobs of NPCs you would be giving it recharge measured in minutes!

hmm maybe 5 seconds would be better?

any thoughts?

Symbol · Dec 12, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

If i follow your line of thinking... wat differentiates dervish from warriors? Air eles from Fire eles? They all want to kill shit right? So does that mean we can draw comparisons between them? Smiters want to kill shit too i assume... so can i compare a smiter to a warrior? Hell even ritualists want to kill stuff too! They must be the same as warriors and fire eles then! Heck... all the classes are the same cos they just wanna kill shit at the end of the day right?

No,see the difference is that fire elementalists are pretty much all damage with no utility. Well, technically, that's not true, because they're supposed to have utility in the form of area denial, but their tools to do that are just so bad that they might as well not exist.

That's why comparing warriors and fire elementalists (and dervishes for that matter) is valid, because you put them in your build to do damage.

Unfortunately for fire elementalists to put out good damage you have to get opponents who suck or get lucky in terms of the situation/terrain allowing the AoE to payoff. Warriors have no such restrictions.

I think that creating a skill line whose sole purpose is to punish abject stupidity is ridiculous-because it means that it becomes totally useless once you face opponents with a clue.

You apparently think that's okay, but I guess that's why you're not balancing this game.

Riotgear · Dec 12, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Ive never seen such a simple and inept summary of the role of the warrior and the role of a fire ele. It astounds me that you believe that this sort of description can contribute to a constructive discussion about skill balance.

People are bringing SF eles to fill the role they used to bring warriors for: Damage pressure. You asked how they are comparable, there's your answer.

Area denial will happen when the DOT nukes stop sucking. Sandstorm proves that it's possible. Savannah Heat isn't an area denial, it's an AOE spike. Fire Storm and its ilk are still terrible.

Quote:

Smiters want to kill shit too i assume... so can i compare a smiter to a warrior? Hell even ritualists want to kill stuff too!

Normally, you don't bring stuff that sucks.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 12, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Can you tell me of a 15e spells which makes spells fail on the whole team for 10/30 sec?

I could point out that diversion completely owns Searing Flames, but that isn't 15e or 10/30.... it's 10e and permanent on 5 different targets

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I think that creating a skill line whose sole purpose is to punish abject stupidity is ridiculous-because it means that it becomes totally useless once you face opponents with a clue.

You apparently think that's okay, but I guess that's why you're not balancing this game.

Im playing the game by accepting the role which the classes seem to be put into by Anet. It seems like they themselves had defined fire eles to assume a certain role pre-nightfall. And i have come to accept that specialised role. And so when people come along and demand that the fire ele is changed to be able to cause 'pressure' or to 'spike' just like warriors... just doesnt sit well with me. Theres a reason why the fire line was made the way it was made.

But with the introduction of SF we have seen a completely new definition of the fire ele... as a character capable of inflicting moderate to high dmg with a AoE effect... with the ability to do so at a fast rate. This is unprecedented for the fire ele. And puts into question our established views on their purpose.

This is causing our arguments. Because now we really arent sure what 'role' the fire ele is supposed to play anymore. The skills pre-nightfall suggest a very specialised DoT AoE role with limited direct damage ability and i for one came to accept this role and saw reason with its strengths and weaknesses.

But the post-nightfall fire ele is more akin to a AoE DPS character. So much so that the old role is no longer even taken into account anymore and is seen as 'underpowered' because the new role which the fire can fulfil far exceeds the usefulness of the old role.

I dont see anything wrong with the old fire eles... but if fire eles are becoming something else entirely... id like to see them being able to deliver spammable pressure DPS with AoE using more than the searing flames combo... and hopefully using a combo that isnt so mindlessly boring and easy to apply.

But since new skills are certainly not on the horizon... (although we could be pleasantly suprised hint hint)... i would rather see the SF skill balanced a little and it would seem that many others agree with upping its recharge by 1 or 2 seconds. Anything more than that is unnecessary...

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Normally, you don't bring stuff that sucks.

Hmmm didnt quite understand my sarcasm did u? oh well ill know to keep things plain and simple next time i respond to you.

And well... why is it that you so easily accept the smiters suck as a source of dps? And why is it that you easily accept that ritualists suck as a source of dps... when you seem to be arguing so strongly for fire eles to be able to inflict as much dps as a warrior?

Why cant you apply that same acceptance to fire eles? If they cant achieve the same dps than warriors because they suck at inflicting dps... dont bring them.

your attitude hints of double standards.

see my post about the new role that SF has given to fire eles as opposed to the role they had pre-nightfall.

And i really shouldnt be continuing this debate but oh well.

Symbol · Dec 12, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

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Im playing the game by accepting the role which the classes seem to be put into by Anet. It seems like they themselves had defined fire eles to assume a certain role pre-nightfall. And i have come to accept that specialised role. And so when people come along and demand that the fire ele is changed to be able to cause 'pressure' or to 'spike' just like warriors... just doesnt sit well with me. Theres a reason why the fire line was made the way it was made.

You can't have it both ways. Either the devs are always right, in which case you can't call for any balance changes whatsoever or everything is open to questioning.

Riotgear · Dec 12, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

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Can you tell me of a 15e spells which makes spells fail on the whole team for 10/30 sec?

You complain that mesmers are SP spikers now, yet they can't manage to fit signet of humility on to their bars? Point it at an SF ele and watch them turn into a paperweight.

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Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

The skills pre-nightfall suggest a very specialised DoT AoE role with limited direct damage ability and i for one came to accept this role and saw reason with its strengths and weaknesses.

And what exactly does this DoT AoE role accomplish when people just step out of it before it can even do more than 30 damage?

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So much so that the old role is no longer even taken into account anymore and is seen as 'underpowered' because the new role which the fire can fulfil far exceeds the usefulness of the old role.

The old role isn't taken into account because it sucked. Its only purpose is pounding people on the altar in HA. The only time it broke out of that role was when two certain support eles pulled it out of their ass during VOD, while not even using it for the entire rest of the match. Even in PVE, it's lost use because mobs scramble and scatter more than ever.

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id like to see them being able to deliver spammable pressure DPS with AoE using more than the searing flames combo...

After you said in your first paragraph that you don't even like the concept of fire eles in a "pressure" role?

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Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

And well... why is it that you so easily accept the smiters suck as a source of dps? And why is it that you easily accept that ritualists suck as a source of dps... when you seem to be arguing so strongly for fire eles to be able to inflict as much dps as a warrior?

Because they suck right now. Smite used to provide overwhelming pressure, then it got nerfed. Channelling rits have no flexibility, and certainly can't match SF on damage.

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Why cant you apply that same acceptance to fire eles? If they cant achieve the same dps than warriors because they suck at inflicting dps... dont bring them.

Because right now any fire-based build aside from SF does suck at inflicting DPS.