Curse

Thom Bangalter · Dec 11, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Feigned neutrality is disguisting. That, along with shadow of haste+dark escape, made me invincible while shocking minds. We still lost, but it felt good to be invulnerable to MH.

Riotgear · Dec 11, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

FN can be kept up indefinately... for 10e every 13-14 seconds. Oh, and you can't use any attack skills. So this is yet another skill abused by another class (E/A or Mo/A runners) - similar to WY. Can't wait till FN (and by that sins) gets nerfed because other classes aren't affected by the drawbacks.

It's "attacks or skills" not "attack skills." Basically all they can do is use DP/FN anyway, or cancel it and do something else. It's meant as a retreat ability, the problem is that you can pretty much "retreat" forever with it. Consider that 75% block/evade stances, which are close to the kind of protection FN gives, have 45-sec recharges. The downtime is roughly double the duration. DP/FN has no downtime at all.

Etrik · Dec 11, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

So.. you can tank in GvG? gg.

May aswell make a stance+dolyak+MoP warrior and just stand there doing nothing. It's all the same. There is no point in retreating forever, even if DP/FN allows you to.

Symbol · Dec 11, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

I'm tempted to avoid the SF issue entirely, but to quote someone else, when 9 of the 16 elites being used in a game are Searing Flames, it needs to be looked at. Although it does serve as a nice bar of where elementalist damage is finally viable.

This isn't really the common case. How many teams run 4 or more searing flames eles?

JR · Dec 11, 2006, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

This isn't really the common case. How many teams run 4 or more searing flames eles?

How much have you watched observer mode over the last two days? I have seen matches quite frequently with 12 searing Eles going at it.

sir lockt · Dec 11, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

How much have you watched observer mode over the last two days? I have seen matches quite frequently with 12 searing Eles going at it.

At least it is fun to watch to see all those fiery animation being triggered

and of course gamble which of the teams find out first that you can scatter as well

So yes I believe the SF will get a punch (I feel HA WAS lame... but now its something different.. I dont know the english word for it...and will not post the dutch to avoid being banned... ) you will both fix GvG and HA with it... so why not?

Hexes are also quite down the drain due to divert hexes...so maybe there a minor tweak there as well? (how does: remove 1 hex in a time and decrease energy to 5 so it become more energy heavy and more flexible, sounds?).

Symbol · Dec 11, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

How much have you watched observer mode over the last two days? I have seen matches quite frequently with 12 searing Eles going at it.

Not much admittedly, have been busy with work. But is it really fair to base this assessment on a weekend where tons of people were farming champ points? Throughout the rest of the ladder season it was very rare to see teams with more than two SF elementalists.

JR · Dec 11, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Not much admittedly, have been busy with work. But is it really fair to base this assessment on a weekend where tons of people were farming champ points? Throughout the rest of the ladder season it was very rare to see teams with more than two SF elementalists.

Quote:

[#Frozen-Flame]
=-= [ICE]Korrigan has changed the topic to “The Frozen Flame - www.thefrozenflame.com - Season & Weekend of Lameness to end soon”

Yes.

Alleji · Dec 11, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

*my nerf list:

Charm Animal

It's been almost 2 RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin years and i still see them.

Charm Amimal
As long as you have this skill equipped, you have (25...100%) chance to bring your pet with you. (Att: expertise)

?

tomcruisejr · Dec 11, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Charm Amimal
As long as you have this skill equipped, you have (25...100%) chance to bring your pet with you. (Att: expertise)

?

Charm Amimal
If you have this skill equipped, your damage is reduced by 75%. (attribute: Beast Mastery)

Thomas.knbk · Dec 11, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Charm Amimal
As long as you have this skill equipped, you have (25...100%) chance to bring your pet with you. (Att: expertise)

?

Charm Amimal
If you have this skill equipped, your damage is reduced by 75%. (attribute: Beast Mastery)

Charm Animal
If you have this skill equipped, you are allowed to use Rampage As One as your elite.
No energy cost, activation time or recharge because activating it has no effect.

Lorekeeper · Dec 11, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Whats wrong with charm animal?

if anything we need to see a overhaul of the Beast mastery skill line so that the only viable build using pets is not Thumper related. A reduction in recharge times of the skills and more control over the pets is something i would personally like to see.

Feigned Neutrality... hmmm

i know feigned neutrality is very powerful... and allows the assassin a great deal more security in its solo ability... but what im having difficulty with is this... feigned neutrality is an enchantment. If an assassin depends on this enchantment to stay alive while ganking... the best counter to the assassin is therefore something with enchant removal. Ive seen shatter enchant used to great effect against sin gankers.

So im scared that the response to this proposed change is that, there are counters to this skill in the game already... use them.

Etrik is correct... if you force an assassin to use FN in order to stay alive... you have effectively stopped him from achieving his job... which i assume was to kill NPCs in your base or delay the flag runner.

Assassins are meant to be the solo artists in the game... Comparing the ability of the assassin to survive solo is silly... its like comparing the healing ability of the dervish to a healing monk... or the spike ability of a water ele with an axe warrior.

The only change that might be needed, as others have suggested is to make it so that ONLY assassins can use the Feigned Neutrality+Deadly paradox combo effectively. So hmmm maybe adding these skills to the critical strikes class is a good solution. Only the problem you face when doing that is that assassins already pump quite alot of points into critical strikes... and allowing them to save the points they would have committed into deadly arts and bump up their dagger mastery and critical strikes might make them much much more 'deadly' than they already are.

So wats the solution?

something needs to be done so that characters with assassin as secondary class cannot keep feigned neutrality up 24/7 without committing the points in order to do so.

Currently with 0 deadly arts and 10 shadow arts... ANY class can keep FN up 24/7 this i think... is a little silly.

Either reduce the duration:shadow arts attribute ratio of FN
or create a %faster recharge:deadly arts attribute ratio to deadly paradox.

so maybe 8 deadly arts allows skills to recharge 50% faster.
maybe 10 shadow arts gives FN a 10 second duration instead of 12.

any thoughts?

Thomas.knbk · Dec 11, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I think putting FN in the critical Strikes line would make it overpowered, because it would mean Assassins only need to spec in 2 attributes instead of 3. (eliminating the need for shadow arts). I'm also not sure if changing the duration to 10 sec. at 10 Shadow Arts is going to do much. 10/12 is not that big of a difference from 12/12

Riotgear · Dec 11, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Someone on IRC pointed out that the problem with SS is simple: No other skill lets you cheaply convert energy into adrenaline without a 20-second recharge, and there's probably a good reason for that.

Quote:

Etrik is correct... if you force an assassin to use FN in order to stay alive... you have effectively stopped him from achieving his job...

You could stop them from doing their job without FN, the only difference is whether or not they die in the process. That's the role FN appears to be designed for, to give them a temporary survival panic-button, similar to, say, Whirling Defense.

The duration is fine, the recharge WOULD balance it off if DP didn't give a 50% recharge without a single point in deadly arts.

Drewfense · Dec 11, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Someone on IRC pointed out that the problem with SS is simple: No other skill lets you cheaply convert energy into adrenaline without a 20-second recharge, and there's probably a good reason for that.

SS? Spiteful Spirit hehe, sorry I am bad with acronyms. The most commonly used warrior skill that converts energy to adrenaline only has a 4 second recharge :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Etrik is correct... if you force an assassin to use FN in order to stay alive... you have effectively stopped him from achieving his job... which i assume was to kill NPCs in your base or delay the flag runner.

Eh. Two things. First you have to look at Feigned Neutrality in conjuction with Shadow of Haste and Dash/Paradox. The 3 skill combination makes it nearly impossible to kill a good ganker. The situation of seeing a /assassin secondary drop to 10 health while under heavy melee/snare/degen pressure and survive sounds trivial, but just watching obs you see it on a consistant basis (lightning orb hits a feigned mind shock ele for 27...lawl). This combination so far exceeds AoD/Shadow Refuge that it can't even be compared. Not only does it make gankers almost invincible in one sense, it also permits use of different elites and non-assassin primary gankers.

This caused two things to occur. It almost eliminates the option of killing a ganker with reasonable effort. You used to be able to send 3 back and wipe them out. Now all you can really do is delay them. Wait till VoD and hope your build is better designed. Versus only assassin primaries, this would be fine. But with multi-class gankers, a gank team is not necessarily a liability at VoD. Furthermore, the feigned neutrality/shadow of haste panic button allows a gank to still slowely pick of archers by otherwise suicidal dives for NPCs (assassin degen > heal breeze btw).

The other option is just to ignore the gankers and focus on rolling their flagstand team. Again these returns to the ability to use multi-class gankers. Gank teams now have the ability to kill a guild lord diminishing this strategy. Using BSurge/Moebius Strike/YAA and numerous others a gank team can go right through him.

So in conclusion. The ability to free up an elite and having a godly panic button makes these skills imbalanced.

Riotgear · Dec 11, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

The most commonly used warrior skill that converts energy to adrenaline only has a 4 second recharge :P

It also makes you take double damage. SS = Steady Stance. Frenzy will give you 3 extra hits (with a sword/axe) over its entire duration. That's IF your target isn't kiting. Steady Stance + Drunken = as many as 4, provided you can make one hit. Yeah, it's an elite, but I think the fact that it supplies tons of adrenaline for very little energy and almost no recharge spells trouble by itself.

Kind of another note: Either Shadow of Haste needs to get kicked down a notch, or AOD kicked up one. I can't think of a single reason to run AOD over SoH/Prison right now.

Zuranthium · Dec 11, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Feigned neutrality is disguisting. That, along with shadow of haste+dark escape, made me invincible while shocking minds. We still lost, but it felt good to be invulnerable to MH.

I'm sure they could have gotten you if they wanted to.

Deadly Paradox, Shadow of Haste, and Feigned Nuetrality are all just fine, imo. It's an extremely strong escape combo but exactly the kind of thing that Elementalists needed to have great soloing capability. Now the actual Elementalist skills just need to be fixed so the class can have a wide range of variety in builds that can be played.

~Z

Zuranthium · Dec 11, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Kind of another note: Either Shadow of Haste needs to get kicked down a notch, or AOD kicked up one. I can't think of a single reason to run AOD over SoH/Prison right now.

With Aura of Displacement + Deadly Paradox + Feigned, you've got your gank + retreat + survival abilities in 3 skills. If using Shadow Prison you also need to have Shadow of Haste + Deadly Paradox + Feigned on your bar to be a ganker, which is a total of 4 skills.

So there IS a bonus, it gives you an extra skillslot to work with. The problem is that both Aura of Displacement and Golden Phoenix Strike need to cost 5 energy instead of 10. It takes 30 energy to use AoD + GPS + Twisting Fangs, as compared to Shadow Prison + Black Spider Strike + Twisting, which costs 20 energy and prevents the target from kiting away AND adds more degen. That's way better than having the extra skillslot AoD provides.

~Z

Thom Bangalter · Dec 11, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'm sure they could have gotten you if they wanted to.

Deadly Paradox, Shadow of Haste, and Feigned Nuetrality are all just fine, imo. It's an extremely strong escape combo but exactly the kind of thing that Elementalists needed to have great soloing capability. Now the actual Elementalist skills just need to be fixed so the class can have a wide range of variety in builds that can be played.

~Z

No, shadow of haste+dark escape prevented me from being spiked. It really is a rediculous skill combination that means you can harass the base indefinetly, and unless you linger too long on the gank, your survival is guaranteed.

Zuranthium · Dec 11, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Any runner should be able to nuetralize the threat you present.

Which leaves it as 7v7 at the base. Doesn't sound imbalanced to me. True, they probably still won't be able to kill you without a good snare if they send 2 people back, but that's a misplay by the other team and not an imbalance in how powerful your skills are.

~Z