Curse

yesitsrob · Jan 04, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Is it me or does it seem to be on crack again, with this Jagged Bones thing it's kind of reminding me of the necro spike playoffs that time where Necros would be running around with double digits pips of energy regen.

I'm sure anyone on observer mode has seen the highly common Necro Hexing Spirit crapping ladder farming build, and for those who have watched HA recently, the Necro Hexing Spirit crapping holding build. When watching a necro you'll see an insane amount of +7s or whatever just flying off him.

Oh well. Discuss.

Senator Tom · Jan 04, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Hopefully anet wont make minions half energy like they did to spirits so that i can continue to farm fame with the build mentioned above

Divineshadows · Jan 04, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

For HA, banishing strike is my new favorite skill. Holy nuking an altar is fun as you can almost be assured to face either spirits or minions or both. Now if only banishing strike worked on pets too...

Soul Reaping is one of the things in the game that is always either underpowered or overpowered with really no middle ground. Builds that manipulate soul reaping using spirits or minions to ensure energy is flowing in are clearly oriented around getting as much out of soul reaping as possible.

IMO, the previous nerf to soul reaping did not hit it hard enough. My initial reaction months ago when this change was made was that spirits should only give 1/4 instead of 1/2 since spirits have about 1/4 of the health of a player. Minions also have much less health than a player, so the return on minions should probably be 1/2 or so to scale in relation to health. Of course, if the return from minions is reduced some of the overcosted skills in the death line would have to be re-evaluated to see if their energy cost should be reduced.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Jan 05, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I don't think it's minions that need a "nerf", I think it's jagged bones. No one was complaining about the energy gained from minions until this skill came out. I don't really know how they could prevent jagged bones from providing the immense amount of energy to any necro primary as it currently does, but we all know Anet has some smart and intelligent people working on skill balances, if there's a way they'll find it.

Riotgear · Jan 05, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

I don't really know how they could prevent jagged bones from providing the immense amount of energy to any necro primary as it currently does, but we all know Anet has some smart and intelligent people working on skill balances, if there's a way they'll find it.

Simple, increase the cooldown, then maybe it'll actually be viable to spike the jagged horror to death permanently instead of it getting JBed again. A large part of the problem is when the spell is run with QZ, which means one necro can just stand and hammer the JB/ToD buttons.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Jan 05, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Simple, increase the cooldown, then maybe it'll actually be viable to spike the jagged horror to death permanently instead of it getting JBed again. A large part of the problem is when the spell is run with QZ, which means one necro can just stand and hammer the JB/ToD buttons.

Right, but if you increase the cooldown to 8-10 seconds, it demolishes the skill when it is not under the effects of QZ. There is actually a second option to this skill, nerfing ToD. By nerfing ToD you prevent jagged's from being used just for energy. Make ToD 15 second recharge and you might be all right.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 05, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

For HA, banishing strike is my new favorite skill. Holy nuking an altar is fun as you can almost be assured to face either spirits or minions or both. Now if only banishing strike worked on pets too...

Soul Reaping is one of the things in the game that is always either underpowered or overpowered with really no middle ground. Builds that manipulate soul reaping using spirits or minions to ensure energy is flowing in are clearly oriented around getting as much out of soul reaping as possible.

IMO, the previous nerf to soul reaping did not hit it hard enough. My initial reaction months ago when this change was made was that spirits should only give 1/4 instead of 1/2 since spirits have about 1/4 of the health of a player. Minions also have much less health than a player, so the return on minions should probably be 1/2 or so to scale in relation to health. Of course, if the return from minions is reduced some of the overcosted skills in the death line would have to be re-evaluated to see if their energy cost should be reduced.

what he said. entirely. After playing against the build once, and watching it on observer mode...It's pretty disguisting.

Riotgear · Jan 05, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

Right, but if you increase the cooldown to 8-10 seconds, it demolishes the skill when it is not under the effects of QZ. There is actually a second option to this skill, nerfing ToD. By nerfing ToD you prevent jagged's from being used just for energy. Make ToD 15 second recharge and you might be all right.

That isn't really going to stop it, it's just going to make it slightly less insane, as long as JB can perpetually be kept on a minion, then it can be TODed on cooldown for energy. Putrid Flesh can also be used, although PF isn't cheap enough to spam under QZ like TOD is.

Although that would actually be a solution: Raise either JB's cost or TOD's cost (preferably JB's) to 10.

The best solution may ultimately be to nerf SR though. I'd say just kick the minion animation spell costs down one notch, and make minions give half energy.

HolyHawk · Jan 05, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

I don't think jagged bones is the problem, it is indeed soul reaping. This farming build just show how potent massive spirit spamming can still be. If there's 1 or 2 spirits in a build, they don't make a huge difference, but with dozens of them, unnaffected by conditions or hexes, it's quite obvious that necro is the best option to go as a primary. JB is their source of direct armor ignoring dmg, as well a trigger for condition pressure along with disease. It's a clever build, and even a spiritual pain spike would have trouble breaking through. Rework soul reaping imo.

stueyman2099 · Jan 05, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Soul Reaping needs to be reworked... again.

HolyHawk · Jan 05, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Find a bar that has energy enough to pd so many spirits, and an oath shot. The idea to make s.pain spirit destroyer has just made it an ultra armor ignoring spike spell. I do wonder if spirits are balanced as well. Then people say, oh, there's consume soul (edit); maybe the mesmer should take it and go spirit mashing afterall.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 05, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

IMO, they should make soul reaping trigger based on level...

Keep it the same for level 20s, but, for instance, at SR 10 only gain 6 from lvl 12 minions and 4 from level 8 spirits but still 10 from level 20 characters.

Or they could do a total rework/balance jagged bones.

shardfenix · Jan 05, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Tom

Hopefully anet wont make minions half energy like they did to spirits so that i can continue to farm fame with the build mentioned above

It's not a "let people cheat their fame so it can mean less than nothing" issue. It's a balance issue. Put your miniature e-pnis away, nobody cares.

Jagged bones was the single most dumb*** skill izzy made in NF. A skill that gives infinite energy to necros, recharging every 5 seconds. What next? a 0-cost dervish enchantment that lasts 1/4 seconds?

Turbobusa · Jan 05, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

since pvers are complaining about how hard it is to target minions, they could make it an enchant that target yourself, with, well 20 sec recharge.. could be removed easily, human player could run this in pve...what you think?

qwe4rty · Jan 06, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

It's not a "let people cheat their fame so it can mean less than nothing" issue. It's a balance issue. Put your miniature e-pnis away, nobody cares.

Jagged bones was the single most dumb*** skill izzy made in NF. A skill that gives infinite energy to necros, recharging every 5 seconds. What next? a 0-cost dervish enchantment that lasts 1/4 seconds?

I actually really like the idea of it, and it makes minions a little bit more viable in PvP. I think the best fix for it would be to raise the cost like someone said, since, the problem with the Soul Reaping stems from the amount of energy they net. Since this problem has been brought up now because of JB, raise that cost.

Sentao Nugra · Jan 06, 2007, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Easy fix to JB: Cannot be cast on a Jagged Horror.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 06, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentao Nugra

Easy fix to JB: Cannot be cast on a Jagged Horror.

I'm not sure you understand the point of the skill.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Jan 06, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I'm not sure you understand the point of the skill.

I agree with you here, but maybe you could make it like this:

Cast jagged bones on bone minion, bone minion dies and jagged horror spawns.

Cast jagged bones on jagged horror that spawned from bone minion, and a "leet" minion spawns.

Cast jagged bones on "leet" minion and "uber" minion spawns.

Cast jagged bones on "uber" minion and...nothing happens the skill doesn't work anymore. It would still serve it's purpose as it can maintain the minions until you kill something, but it can't be abused soul reaping wise.

Divineshadows · Jan 15, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

It's not a "let people cheat their fame so it can mean less than nothing" issue. It's a balance issue. Put your miniature e-pnis away, nobody cares.

Jagged bones was the single most dumb*** skill izzy made in NF. A skill that gives infinite energy to necros, recharging every 5 seconds. What next? a 0-cost dervish enchantment that lasts 1/4 seconds?

It's quotes like this that make me agree that there should be a shardfenix fan club. For once though, I agree with a post of yours. The only part you got wrong was a 5 second recharge. Teams pair with with QZ under oath shot to take the recharge on jagged way down among all the hexes and healing/prot skills they spam.

I just got through playing a jagged bones build with 5 necros and one ranger and I definately got the feeling that the build as a whole does not within proper balance. The main reason I agreed to play the build was because I wanted to see its weakness in action to better understand it whenever I play against it in the future. It allows necromancers to spam otherwise overcosted skills that nobody would bring into PvP aside from random arenas. I mean seriously, who brings soul feast into PvP? Or backfire on a bar with absolutely no self energy management on the bar filled with several other 10 energy skills? Or heal other, jamei's gaze, convert hexes, and heal party on the same bar with no self energy management? This only confirms to me the fact that when you get an effectively insane number of pips of energy regen you can run skill bars that people wouldn't have dreamed to be possible or effective in PvP.

Sadly, a jagged bones build can be destroyed by any balanced build with a single mesmer with diversion and a single dervish with banishing strike. *cough*. But there seems to be a distinct lack of properly balanced builds in HA at the moment. Perhaps it is because a balanced build with a mesmer and dervish has a tough time beating the 3 warrior, 3 paragon dual angelic bonder build in less than 15 minutes and this is only with a whole team of extremely strong and experienced players who know how to kite perfectly and call their cripples and deep wounds.

Jagged minions that were created from a previous minion should only give soul reaping energy to owner of the minions. Spirits should not give any energy to necromancers from soul reaping. Necromancers should only get soul reaping energy from their own minions dying, a player on their team or the opposing team dying, or a pet dying. Please fix the broken state of soul reaping.

stueyman2099 · Jan 15, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Divineshadows

Spirits should not give any energy to necromancers from soul reaping. Necromancers should only get soul reaping energy from their own minions dying, a player on their team or the opposing team dying, or a pet dying. Please fix the broken state of soul reaping.

Agreed completley.