Curse

Sinful Doom · Jan 01, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

I placed this post in the PVP section because IMO skill balances/modifications are mainly drivin by the pvp community. Not to turn this post into a debate about what skills need buffed/nerfed but I'm sure there are very few PVE people that would say Searing Flames needs nerfed.

I have been told from many people in the Alpha program that skill balances are mainly one persons job. I am sure its not easy to take the dynamic multitude of skills/combinations and create perfect harmony. But why do we have to go through a whole ladder season plus weeks after it to get any changes? If you know or suspect skills are imbalanced adjust them as we go. If you nerf it too much then modify it the next day. In all likelyhood after waiting months still, when the balances come out in 2 weeks or so there will be skills that became underpowered and/or overpowered. I suppose we will have to wait months for those imbalances to be balanced...

I just dont understand why Anet treats skill balances as if it were the election of a president. Basically I'm frustraited waiting for changes that should come more immediately...

Infectious · Jan 01, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Basically we do a much better job of finding the over-powered combo's than what 1 person would.
The 1/few people that do it would keep an eye on meta and see what is being used as this is usually a pretty good indication of what needs to be on the nerf list.
If something is completly broken, like that dervish skill that triggers damage on a miss, then they will step in fix'em up quick. Otherwise they should leave it up to us to counter it.
They do a pretty good job considering the amount of skills to balance now compared to 9 months ago.

Sinful Doom · Jan 01, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

There is no question that 1 person cant test every skill combination in the game to see what is broken. I will also agree that not all imbalances will come to the surface in alpha and beta tests. There are currently hundred's of skills in the game but only a handful consistantly get mentioned as "imbalanced." These are the types of skills that should be addressed immediatly and should not be put off as a package deal with skills that need minor tweeks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

If something is completly broken, like that dervish skill that triggers damage on a miss, then they will step in fix'em up quick. Otherwise they should leave it up to us to counter it.

A broken skill by description and an imbalanced skill are two totally different things. Also, I can make counters to every imbalanced skill in the game but the sum of it wont be worth a damn to 9/10 of the other builds you will face in gvg.

I think dragging feet for this long is getting a little rediculous.

DieInBasra · Jan 01, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Well, now that we're going into one big long season, after this next update things might happen more quickly.

Also, really, izzy can nerf things and nerf things, but he also has to buff things or this game would be stagnated. And when he buffs things, you can bet the x number of people that gvg competitively will be all over it to find the new fotm. he can't just keep nerf/buffing nerf/buffing or esle the meta would never settle and you'll have to constantly be on your feet for what people are going to run instead of being able to have an idea of what you're going to run into.

Infectious · Jan 01, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

.... he can't just keep nerf/buffing nerf/buffing or esle the meta would never settle and you'll have to constantly be on your feet for what people are going to run instead of being able to have an idea of what you're going to run into.

But is this a good thing or not?

Makkert · Jan 01, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

I placed this post in the PVP section because IMO skill balances/modifications are mainly drivin by the pvp community. Not to turn this post into a debate about what skills need buffed/nerfed but I'm sure there are very few PVE people that would say Searing Flames needs nerfed.

I have been told from many people in the Alpha program that skill balances are mainly one persons job. I am sure its not easy to take the dynamic multitude of skills/combinations and create perfect harmony. But why do we have to go through a whole ladder season plus weeks after it to get any changes?

This will be changed from now on. As the ladder is reset for the last time, ANet won't wait for ladderlocks to implement skillbalancing.

Quote:

If you know or suspect skills are imbalanced adjust them as we go. If you nerf it too much then modify it the next day.

That is an horrible idea. It would get very messy, and people would question the expertise of ANet.

Quote:

In all likelyhood after waiting months still, when the balances come out in 2 weeks or so there will be skills that became underpowered and/or overpowered. I suppose we will have to wait months for those imbalances to be balanced...

I just dont understand why Anet treats skill balances as if it were the election of a president. Basically I'm frustraited waiting for changes that should come more immediately...

well, relax. things are about to change, from what I read and understand.

Ensign · Jan 01, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

The only thing that is going to change from what I've read is the 'you have to wait until a season is over to make balance changes' bit. Smaller, more frequent rebalancings can be made in the future.

How much of an effect will that have? I'm not holding my breath waiting for a huge shift in how things work. Izzy is still the only real catalyst for making balance changes, but it's only a small part of his job and he's severely overworked. Unless these changes are going to free him up to balance the game better I wouldn't expect more than a slightly more granular version of the status quo.

Peace,
-CxE

Unnefable · Jan 01, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

still waiting for A.Net to have the brilliant idea of limiting the number of skills available for GvG thus simplifying the balance issue.... just have your skill creators seperate into 2 groups... or whatever... 1 for pve were the skills they create won't be allowed in gvg.. and another group make skills for pvp... u can use those in pve... who cares about pve anyway :P

u already have a bunch of skills that are pve only... mission only skills... skills related to title... why not take that concept all the way? that would most definetely make life easier on izzy and it would keep the pvpers from complaining about useless skills (which is what a lot of skills are for pvpers)...

Bankai · Jan 02, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unnefable

still waiting for A.Net to have the brilliant idea of limiting the number of skills available for GvG thus simplifying the balance issue.... just have your skill creators seperate into 2 groups... or whatever... 1 for pve were the skills they create won't be allowed in gvg.. and another group make skills for pvp... u can use those in pve... who cares about pve anyway :P

u already have a bunch of skills that are pve only... mission only skills... skills related to title... why not take that concept all the way? that would most definetely make life easier on izzy and it would keep the pvpers from complaining about useless skills (which is what a lot of skills are for pvpers)...

You do realize this is against ANet's philosophy, right? This will make it much, much harder for pve-ers to get into pvp.

Unnefable · Jan 02, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

let me put it this way... we only miss the pvpers that are gone.... not the ones we don't get... people that come to GW to pvp don't need an incentive... they do it of their own free will... if you need to play pve in order to play pvp then this game has failed as a competitive game... u say that it goes against a.net desire to seperate pvp and pve... i say the opposite... they've been (thankfully) seperating pve and pvp... latest and most positive step towards this end was the creation of pvp equipment and templates so that we don't have to do pve and grind stuff... next they just have to fix the balance between pve and pvp and we'll be done

Isil`Zha · Jan 03, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

If something is completly broken, like that dervish skill that triggers damage on a miss, then they will step in fix'em up quick. Otherwise they should leave it up to us to counter it.
They do a pretty good job considering the amount of skills to balance now compared to 9 months ago.

eh, what's wrong with Sand Shards... it doesn't do all that much damage, and you can't get it to do anything more - your attacks to cripple or inflict other conditions still miss, and with the low Dervish attack speed it's really not all that much.

There is one way to really exploit it, and that's if a lot of people all group up in front of the Dervish like morons... now that I have had happen, and using Twin Moon sweep all of them took an instant 160 dmg... that's what they get for grouping up and blinding me.

Or a lousy rit that just stacks all their spirits in one spot.

It's definitely not enough to power through a bond or anything except maybe for a rare situation like above.

DieInBasra · Jan 03, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

He's talking about when it applied to anything, not just scythes, and way of the empty palm assassin were pumping out rediculous aoe dps with sand shards and dual attacks (it counts as a miss if you use them whith no lead).

Paperfly · Jan 03, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

eh, what's wrong with Sand Shards... it doesn't do all that much damage, and you can't get it to do anything more - your attacks to cripple or inflict other conditions still miss, and with the low Dervish attack speed it's really not all that much.

Er, it's an allusion to how it worked during the preview weekend. Back then it triggered off any kind of attack, and was abused by people running dagger chains without the requisite lead attacks.

...That is, people would spam Wild Strike without leading into it. Automatic "fail", automatic damage from the Sand Shards. It was genuinely, unquestionably broken and it got fixed double-quick.

Quote:

that would most definetely make life easier on izzy and it would keep the pvpers from complaining about useless skills (which is what a lot of skills are for pvpers)...

Don't be ridiculous.
(a) Unquestionably inefficient skills like Power Attack exist more for the benefit of PvP players than PvE-ers - they're "learning" skills for novices to graduate off.

(b) Hyper-narrow-bad skills like Otyugh's Cry are for the benefit of people who like coming up with exotic builds, and these are split evenly between the two player bases. These also get buffed all the time, and can occasionally get broken without anyone noticing for months (Spoil Victor is only just beginning to be appreciated).

(c) Skills that are more effective in PvE than in PvP (such as the entire Death line) can still see niche play in one of the several PvP formats - I hear Minion Masters are some good in Alliance Battles, f'rinstance.

...And finally, the more PvE and PvP get separated, the more casual-transition players like myself get put off playing either.

twicky_kid · Jan 03, 2007, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

You do realize this is against ANet's philosophy, right? This will make it much, much harder for pve-ers to get into pvp.

MTG had to do this for the longevity of their game. If they had never seperated or restricted what you could use MTG would have died a long time ago.

MTG went very strong for many years until Mirridon came and shattered everything. We had never had a turn 3 kill in T2 without being banned immediately. Well they let it go for 8 months. In the end they lost a lot of players due to only 2 decks were able to run in the tournaments (affinity and anti-affinity). The main reason that Wizard used to justify the bannings was the reduction in players showing up for tournaments.

Since the sets rotate out and Mirridon has been gone for over 2 years its a whole new ball game. I haven't played since Mirridon but I could go and pick up a few choice cards and enter a tournament tomorrow.

In the end if GW is to survive there will have to be some restriction on what skills you can use in pvp. This is already happening with the core/nf only skills during the tournament. Expect to see a lot more of this.

As to the OP if you read the statement from about the last tournament they are complaining about having 8 people come in during the morning to run the tournament. Sorry if that doesn't sound too unreasonable, imo. From GW site:

"The recent Winterfest playoffs for example, featured 32 participating guilds. This was our largest online tournament yet! However, to run this event we needed eight ArenaNet staff willing to get up at 7 a.m. and sit in the office both Saturday and Sunday morning. Added to this concern, my main office computer went down with the recent wind storms here in Seattle and we had to scramble to recreate the tournament pairings and mailing lists as the event ran."

32 guilds with 8 players is 256 players with 8 skills on each of their bars is 2048. Checking skills shouldin't be too hard considering it was in excel and its very easy to just use "find." Also many guilds were using mulitple copies of the same skills. If they were not prepared for the tournament then that's Anet's fault. I can understand comp problems, it happens. In any case you should always have a back up. Also notice it says "sit at the office sat and sun morning." I don't see anything about an "all day" or "afternoon." To me it just sounds lazy or they don't want to fork over the money to the employees to have them on those extra hours.

Isil`Zha · Jan 03, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Er, it's an allusion to how it worked during the preview weekend. Back then it triggered off any kind of attack, and was abused by people running dagger chains without the requisite lead attacks.

...That is, people would spam Wild Strike without leading into it. Automatic "fail", automatic damage from the Sand Shards. It was genuinely, unquestionably broken and it got fixed double-quick.

Oh, yeah, I remember that, and yeah it was extremely broken then - I thought he was saying it was still broken now, my bad.

dgb · Jan 03, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

...That is, people would spam Wild Strike without leading into it. Automatic "fail", automatic damage from the Sand Shards. It was genuinely, unquestionably broken and it got fixed double-quick.

It was actually Exhausting Assault. Dual attack, 1/4 second activation is better than a single normal activation attack.

Bankai · Jan 03, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Twicky, you're totally missing the point of the banning of cards. In terms of skills you can't compare MTG with Guild wars. MTG is forced to introduce limited and banned lists because they can not change the skills. If they accidently made an extremely overpowered card, well, good game, you'll have to ban it because you can't change it. In Guild wars, they can just CHANGE the skills.

twicky_kid · Jan 03, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Twicky, you're totally missing the point of the banning of cards. In terms of skills you can't compare MTG with Guild wars. MTG is forced to introduce limited and banned lists because they can not change the skills. If they accidently made an extremely overpowered card, well, good game, you'll have to ban it because you can't change it. In Guild wars, they can just CHANGE the skills.

Acually they do change the text on cards. Its called an ertta (not even sure how to spell it anymore..lol). If the card is ever printed again in a core set it will have the changed text. Ertta are hard to enforce and become very expensive for MTG. GW doesn't have the same problem. They can change the skill without it costing money and there is nothing to monitor to ensure its being used right.

You can very well compare GW to MTG considering most of their business model and inspiration came from MTG.

The more broken skills we have the less people are going to play. I have never seen more people quit GW this season because everything was so overpowered. The same thing happened with MTG during MIrridon because affinity was so overpowered.

The biggest difference is I can go pick up MTG after a year or so and its a total new metagame while GW cannot do that because they allow every skill to be used. So once people leave they more than likely to stay gone. For the longevity of the game they will have to restrict what skills can be used. Its already happening so just prepare yourself for it.

Red Locust · Jan 04, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

I placed this post in the PVP section because IMO skill balances/modifications are mainly drivin by the pvp community. Not to turn this post into a debate about what skills need buffed/nerfed but I'm sure there are very few PVE people that would say Searing Flames needs nerfed.

I have been told from many people in the Alpha program that skill balances are mainly one persons job. I am sure its not easy to take the dynamic multitude of skills/combinations and create perfect harmony. But why do we have to go through a whole ladder season plus weeks after it to get any changes? If you know or suspect skills are imbalanced adjust them as we go. If you nerf it too much then modify it the next day. In all likelyhood after waiting months still, when the balances come out in 2 weeks or so there will be skills that became underpowered and/or overpowered. I suppose we will have to wait months for those imbalances to be balanced...

I just dont understand why Anet treats skill balances as if it were the election of a president. Basically I'm frustraited waiting for changes that should come more immediately...

You're going to have to ask Izzy that, since I doubt anyone here would know why he handles balancing the way he does.

Paperfly · Jan 05, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

It was actually Exhausting Assault. Dual attack, 1/4 second activation is better than a single normal activation attack.

My bad, you're right.

Quote:

Acually they do change the text on cards. Its called an ertta (not even sure how to spell it anymore..lol). If the card is ever printed again in a core set it will have the changed text.

As of around September this year, official policy is that Magic: the Gathering cards may not receive errata to reduce their power levels, only to correct rules clashes or obsolete templating. Power considerations are supposed to be dealt with only through banning/restricting cards.

...A long list of old cards has now been de-erratta'd and banned in the relevant formats.

Incidentally, people didn't leave MtG during Mirrodin because the power was too high, they left because the same deck dominated for too long and people were getting bored. There was actually an unquestionably more powerful deck than Affinity doing the rounds at one point ("Elf and Nail", untill Skullclamp got banned)!

The article that introduced the mass-banning of pretty much every relevant Affinity card is a fascinating read for Guild Wars players, by the way - he basically breaks down and admits that it's a case of market forces being more powerful than strict power concerns (a comparable case for us would be Searing Flames, though it's nowhere near that bad yet!).