Curse

torquemada · Aug 07, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

TA is a 4 man format PvP so you definitely have to plan each skill in a build extra-carefully.

JR · Aug 07, 2006, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

NR owns that build unfortunately, yet another reason I hate facing Eat (they run NR frequently and well.)

I really don't see how NR/Tranq builds could be that good in Arena? We faced maybe two in a run, and had no problems at all. With so little stress on positioning in TA how are you supposed to protect spirits, short of having a trapper sit on them?

remmeh · Aug 07, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I really don't see how NR/Tranq builds could be that good in Arena? We faced maybe two in a run, and had no problems at all. With so little stress on positioning in TA how are you supposed to protect spirits, short of having a trapper sit on them?

if you are prepared they are no problem. most teams don't know how to defeat nr/tranq and so it's the ultimate TA farming build.

personally we run a copy of draw conditions and at least one meleer, so we just have the meleer run into the traps, then after dust trap stops going off, draw conditions, and meleer takes out spirits.

alternatively you can run away from NR/tranq on some of the larger maps.

or you can always interrupt it... use a seeking arrows ranger, a few leech sigs, or a psychic distraction mesmer.

Talon Kalor · Aug 07, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Something that would proabably be fairly easy for Anet to do is to make TA like a competition mission. It can show which teams have had the longest streaks for the day, month, etc..

That might make TA more enticing for some of the better guilds. They will want to have the best all time streak.

yesitsrob · Aug 07, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

recently ran an NR Tranq build in TA actually, and it was pretty devastating to be honest, we didn't find it that hard to protect spirits :\

suiraCLAW · Aug 07, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

personally we run a copy of draw conditions and at least one meleer, so we just have the meleer run into the traps, then after dust trap stops going off, draw conditions, and meleer takes out spirits.

Do you mean that every 20 seconds your warrior needs to run to the other "edge" of the map (not that far, but most trapper will activate a dust trap near the spirits, forcing you to wait for 5 seconds)?

IMO, Interrupting nr/tranq is by far the best counter...

remmeh · Aug 07, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Do you mean that every 20 seconds your warrior needs to run to the other "edge" of the map (not that far, but most trapper will activate a dust trap near the spirits, forcing you to wait for 5 seconds)?

IMO, Interrupting nr/tranq is by far the best counter...

of course interrupting is by far the best counter. but i normally don't run any of the counters i specified in a typical balanced group. the only interrupts we may run would be on an interrupter with melandru's arrows, but the NR-layer has whirling defense, and interrupting through that has a 25% success rate. i'm just providing a simple one-skill counter to NR/Tranq that works, albeit lacking in elegance.

Sparrow · Aug 07, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I really don't see how NR/Tranq builds could be that good in Arena? We faced maybe two in a run, and had no problems at all. With so little stress on positioning in TA how are you supposed to protect spirits, short of having a trapper sit on them?

Bad NR teams are easy to beat. Kill the spirits, gg. Now it's BL vs Boon Prot, who do you think will win that one?

With a good NR team, the trapper does sit on the spirits. He can make you waste a ton of time on spirits, especially if you only have Mend Condition. NR is strongest against teams that rely on hexes and that are weak against conditions.

Interrupting the spirits is fine if you run interrupts in your build. With Whirling a ranger is probably not going to interrupt it, you need to rely on Leech Sig/Psychic Distraction/Gale etc.

We've gotten smart against NR lately (we haven't used the Me/N in a while.) They aren't that scary if you play smart. They key thing for us was ditching the Me/N and getting better condition removal. The Boon Prot can even survive with NR up if you put a ton of pressure on their attackers and make them retreat. Using the terrain to help you avoid interrupts is big too.

sno · Aug 07, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

I really don't see how NR/Tranq builds could be that good in Arena? We faced maybe two in a run, and had no problems at all. With so little stress on positioning in TA how are you supposed to protect spirits

Since this is the common idea in TA, it's very difficult for TA-minded players to run this build well. [Eat] is a gvg guild, and the people that play our NR build (we don't bring tranq) play it with huge stress on positioning. It's a very difficult build to run well, but once you know the ins and outs of it it's very difficult to counter. We almost never invite pugs to play our NR build, if we must bring a pug, we'll play balanced.

We actually lost a match last night to [CBE], clearly they've been doing their homework on NR. In our defense we had two people new to the build running with us (on crip shot and trapper, the two most vital roles,) and it was one of our first matches of the night after some gvging. We faced the same team a bit later (after switching up our crip shot and warrior) and beat them, but it's always a task for us. They run a hex build, and run it very well. Even with NR working for us, they still almost always get 1 or 2 kills on us, that says a lot for a team playing against their builds counter.

What CBE seems to now realize when playing us is that you can't necessarily kill the spirit, it's just impossible. By the time you blow the traps, wait out the dust trap, get drawn, kill the spirit, theres already a new one up, with a new dust trap over it, half-way accross the map. All you're doing is wasting time with it, allowing us to roll your team with no pressure on us at all. If you use obstacles and otherwise position yourself to not be interupted, you stand the best chance at beating us. Our build is very centered on interuption, with 4 interupts in it, 3 of which distract the skill. If we're allowed to freely interupt everything you try to do you don't stand a chance, because we can just constantly interupt and spread degen, forcing your monk to heal and heal until he simply runs out of energy and everyone dies. The other devastating thing about our build is that all 4 interupts are skill interupts, so once someone on the other team dies, they will not get ressed, unless the caster has a lot of luck and a defensive stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

TA doesn't get as much respect as 8v8 because success in TA depends more on build and less on skill when compared to other pvp.

That's simply not true at all. A good team will usually be able to beat a team that runs a "better" build (as in, a counter to their build.) If you have the right tactics and the determination to win, there aren't many matches that can't be won on skill alone. The thing about TA is that in the past it's always been a joke. Before the titles there weren't many teams out there who cared about TA, so running 50+ wins in a row wasn't hard at all. Since Factions' release it's seen a total revamp in the metagame, and better players and guilds are getting involved in it. It still doesn't have the respect that a ladder would give it, but it's come a long way.

Sacred o_O · Aug 07, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

When I run NR/Tranq, its usually with a Preservation rit, an oath trapper, and two interrupt rangers with apply, lacerate, and melandrus. The build works and we rarely lose, but it makes for long(er) games.

A build that we used to run a lot is 3 devas. thumpers w/ poison, and a boon prot. It's gimmicky, has a tough time against good trappers, but it's fun as hell and makes for quick games.

Back on topic, [TA], [DBD], [DTS], [Ae], and [Eat] are all good TA guilds. From what I here, [DTS] dominates Euro server TA.

Fun times with [TA] though, running IWAY in TA as a joke for 29 consecutive was definately a memorable experience and we definately received a lot of hate.

[DPS] is good at TA as long as that nub Valkier doesn't play

sno · Aug 07, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

We're seeing the same names pop up, so for those not keeping up here's a loose compilation of the consistantly solid teams that have been mentioned, along with a couple bold that I forgot:

[Eat], [TA], [RezQ], [CBE], [ROFL], [Vis], [DBD], [Fame], [WM], [QQ] (formerly [Char])

Unconfirmed (as I can't recall ever playing them): [Ae], [DTS], [DPS]

Divineshadows · Aug 07, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I really don't see how NR/Tranq builds could be that good in Arena? We faced maybe two in a run, and had no problems at all. With so little stress on positioning in TA how are you supposed to protect spirits, short of having a trapper sit on them?

[Eat] recently has dropped tranquility from the build in favor of a second copy of distracting shot (with oath shot it is really hot). There is more protection for NR than just dust trap and barbed trap. There is also throw dirt and crippling shot.

Our goal when running this build is to force positioning for both our team and the opposition to become a big issue. We have seen many other teams now running an NR build. In some cases, their skills are identical to what we run and in other cases there are variations that end up to be not as effective. Still, when we play balanced builds we have no issue dismantling teams using NR, because those teams do not know how to execute it right and/or we know how to play against it. When we face NR vs. NR, it is always amusing to see the opposition continue to waste time throughout the match placing NR.

Sure there are points of control on most TA maps, so you could say just stay out of NR's range but we play it patiently (will not give chase at the cost of not having NR) and just keep advancing the NR on them whenever necessary. In addition, we have gone entire matches where NR was in effect for 5% of the time or less of the match and still not had any problem winning, because the opposition puts so much energy and effort into trying to prevent NR from being placed or dispatching it quickly and completely miss the fact that they are dying. While [Eat] has 5 different TA builds at the moment that we play, this one is our favorite.

Over the weekend, I tried a modded blessed light monk in our NR build and had a blast with it:

Mo/W
Divine Favor - 16
Healing Prayers - 10
Tactics - 9 (fits the breakpoint on skills and allows for an req 9 tactics shield with +30 health and -5 damage 20% -- definately hot)

Dropped inspired hex for deny hexes
Dropped revealed hex for watch yourself!
Dropped distortion for bonneti's defense

Was probably less optimal than the Mo/Me build I and my guildmates typically run in this build, but like I said it was so much fun to build adrenaline wanding and then using my fellblade to keep it going and spam watch yourself. Watch yourself seemed to work out as energy management in that my heals became more efficient on higher armored teammates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Now it's BL vs Boon Prot, who do you think will win that one?

Definately not right to suggest that blessed light monk is inferior boon prot. A total team effort on reducing damage and interrupting key skills makes the healing pace of blessed light more than keep up with what is needed for the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmeh

or you can always interrupt it... use a seeking arrows ranger, a few leech sigs, or a psychic distraction mesmer.

Seeking arrows is garbage for TA IMO. Just as 2 leech sigs are garbage IMO, though we've encountered this and while annoying they still lost. Psychic distraction memsers are also very annoying, but it is also a subpar elite choice for TA IMO. The psychic distraction mesmer is a problem for this build that is remedied by sticking an axe in their face.

The other "counter" we've run into quite a bit recently is unnatural signet. This skill is just a horrible choice, because of its activation time allowing for distracting shot to dominate it.

My nomination for most dominating TA guild goes to One Hit Quitters [QQ], but haven't seen them around as often anymore. The frequency at which [Eat] is seen in TA is going down as well, because we are getting quite involved in GvG but we will never leave the TA scene.

D E L E T E D · Aug 07, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

thanks for all the [TA] hollas. but to get back on topic, I give it to [Eat]

btw, [Vis] doesnt ta anymore. and i havent seen [QQ] in a while.

Sparrow · Aug 08, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Here's how I would define a team that dominates TA.

You're on a 41 game winning streak, all but a handful flawless. Beaten some "name brands" along the way. By now you're barely paying attention. You run in non-chalant expecting another flawless. All of a sudden you're in the fight of your life. First 1 goes down. Then another. Then it's all over. You look up to see who just hung you out to dry...

F@#$!N EAT!!!!!!

...true story...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Definately not right to suggest that blessed light monk is inferior boon prot. A total team effort on reducing damage and interrupting key skills makes the healing pace of blessed light more than keep up with what is needed for the team.

I've never played BL, so I can only go by who I've faced. As a thumper, in the absence of shutdown (hexes, conditions, etc) I've rarely had trouble soloing a BL. Speaking only from my limited experience, Boon Prot seems like a much more self-sufficient build overall.

However, with that said, good teams never leave their monk to fend for himself with no protection. In the right build, as NR builds demonstrate every day, BL is clearly up to the task.

Sparrow · Aug 08, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

We actually lost a match last night to [CBE]

I was so sorry to have missed this. But I did hear about it.

I tried running NR with the guild tonight, after they had had so much success with it last night. I didn't do well at all.

kvndoom · Aug 08, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Thanks for the recognition. Yeah, we simply got cocky after 41 tonight and I was running late for work anyway, and all of a sudden, WHOA, where'd that bulldozer come from??? We had the most fun (and I feel the most success, even though it wasn't our longest streak) with Blessed Light tonight, mainly because the TA metagame is shifting towards NR to counter Boon monks. A monk relying on Boon is going to be hurting against NR no matter what, and if you do win, it's a vicious struggle at best. Earlier today we went 5-1 against NR teams while having a BoonProt (one of our go-to monks doesn't have Factions), but they weren't very good at it, and we used positioning heavily to our advantage to win.

If Factions hadn't introduced Blessed Light, NR would be insane in Arenas. None of the Prophecies Monk elites are really that great. Word of HEaling and Restore Condition should be reworked to work on yourself, to at least make them suck a little less when compared to Blessed. As it stands, they aren't even worthy of being elites anymore.

remmeh · Aug 08, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E L E T E D

thanks for all the [TA] hollas. but to get back on topic, I give it to [Eat]

btw, [Vis] doesnt ta anymore. and i havent seen [QQ] in a while.

beat [Vis] today with a balanced _pug_. they don't TA consistently anymore though. and i've only seen QQ play one day... and i dunno how we beat them once, because we ran into them twice again and died very quickly thereafter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I've never played BL, so I can only go by who I've faced. As a thumper, in the absence of shutdown (hexes, conditions, etc) I've rarely had trouble soloing a BL. Speaking only from my limited experience, Boon Prot seems like a much more self-sufficient build overall.

However, with that said, good teams never leave their monk to fend for himself with no protection. In the right build, as NR builds demonstrate every day, BL is clearly up to the task.

i just started playing a BL monk today. of course you don't have guardian/cop etc. to save yourself against adrenal/otherwise spikes, so it's less efficient when talking about self-survival. but BL shines in that it's not reliant on enchantments (by stripping+diverting boon, you make a boonprot next-to-useless).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

[Eat], [TA], [RezQ], [CBE], [ROFL], [Vis], [DBD], [Fame], [WM], [QQ] (formerly [Char])

thanks for the mention O_o but we don't do as much TA as i'd like to anymore.

Neo-LD · Aug 08, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

GSS hasnt played TA seriosuly since... February. We obviously dont deserve to be mentioned in this thread but it reminds me of what we once had.

Many grats to all the top arena guilds, especially [TA] and [eat] for what theyve accomplised in TA. The metagame in TA is much more challenging and rewarding than when GSS was dominant (as in, there are actually many good teams now) so what you have accomplished is much more meaningful than the endless nubstomps we experienced. We always fancied ourselves TA champs, so we should really come back to TA and put some mettle behind these words

Ill rally some of the old TA dogs in our guild and see if we can play again. Again grats, hope to meet in TA.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 08, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

For the old tactics discussion, it's kinda like this.

TA=micro-tactics, such as dodging projectiles, getting one spirit/trap up, ability to shutdown that one monk for the kill, basically individual player skill and especially in the small things.
GvG=macro-tactics, manevering, positioning, pressuring both monks, all the big stuff.

And yea, I gotta say that [eat] has it. Some of the famous GvG guilds can run some nice stuff, but they're generally joking around in ladder down-time or just practicing.

fb2000 · Aug 08, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Unconfirmed (as I can't recall ever playing them): [Ae], [DTS], [DPS]

DTS used to pretty much win every match on european servers. they came as close as dominating as I can say.

tho I cant say there are many good players in TA in europe, at least for now