Curse

Thom Bangalter · Nov 30, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

YAAhoos can generally kill you before you can keep that blind up if they're good. Plus they can just keep you perma-crippled with YAA, so they're still doing their job (slowing down the flagger), even if they can't seem to finish you off for whatever reason.

Silk Weaver · Nov 30, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Yeah, I forgot about them a few posts back for some strange, obscure reason, perhaps relating to my mental state at the time of writing.

I was more focusing on cripshots really.

Edit: Although that would be even farther off topic. I suppose that means that in terms of solo ganking, the Sin and Cripshot would lose out to the YAA simply because they can't dependably deal with an Air E/Mo then..

Patrograd · Nov 30, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Edit: Although that would be even farther off topic. I suppose that means that in terms of solo ganking, the Sin and Cripshot would lose out to the YAA simply because they can't dependably deal with an Air E/Mo then..

Anything with good condi removal should be able to deal with air emos. mending touch ftw, or sig malice on something like a cripshot. Is partly why you see less air runners at the moment. We run searing flames on ours :-)

Oni Firestarter · Nov 30, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I cringe when I hear the word "ganking".. because I dont think that should be the reason you split.

Splitting is about gaining leverage. Splitting is about jockeying for position. Its about recognizing that your build is stronger than theirs when its taken in a 6-2, or 5-3, or 7-1 or even 4-4 (yes, 4-4 is typically a mistake, but I have seen situations it can be very useful), but dominated in an 8v8 flag stand brawl.

Another reason to play for splits is when you feel tactically you are superior - splitting lets tactics start to dominate over builds.

Part of the problem with the meta.. isn't even the meta.. its how everything is looked at in terms of VOD. Why are you killign NPCs? In case the match goes to VOD? Thats a recipe for a loss. The reason you are ganking NPCS is to exert pressure on the otehr team - to force them to confront your split. The basic challenge is: "If you dont come back, Im just going to gank your whole base and move onto your GL.. and at that point you'll have to come back" (one thing I like to have is always make sure my gankers can put some nice quick damage onto a GL at will.. so if I'm not getting them to split when I need them to (ie.. the monks are about to bottom out; our runner is falling far behind on flags) i can get that GL health bar to take a nice big dip and force to send at least SOMETHING back, or at least cause some dissension on vent etc)

The key is that generally you have put more thought into your split than they have - if you ran a build DESIGNED for a split, your split is almost always going to be stronger than theirs since you built around it.

Let me give an example: on my YAA tank, I run Riposte or Shield Bash. Why? Its clearly a skill slot on an allready tight set of 8 (it costs me my interupt). So when you look at my YAA tank, you might say "but he cant interupt troll? What good is that - my YAA can kill that archer way faster than yours?" Which is true. But Riposte/Shield Bash is there to dominate the other teams anti-gank.

Lots of asns like to hide in the base, drop their combos and then kill shadow of haste and hop back to their GL. he will still be able to do that of course.. but my tank will happily go along ganking after their combo gets busted on a block. Thats a dominated build (ignoring fox's promise etc). Why is YAA being praised as it is? Because the runner cant deal with tanks anymore.. the runner is typically dominated. Again, its a way of applying pressure onto their team. So yeah, if we get into a tourny where you have to gank a halll as fast as possible, you'll take the cake. but in terms of applying real game pressure, I think my anti assasin YAA has you completely beat. Why? BECAUSE THEY WANT TO SEND THE ASSASSIN BACK. Now, there are some good main group asn builds, but for the most part, if a team using an assassin had to pick someoen to send back, they are going to WANT to send their asn back. And what your strong split is saying is: nope.. take your asn back to your main group and send back your degen spamming mesmer, or send back one of your blights.. maybe you need to send your runner AND the assasin? And in doing this, you have created way more pressure than you ever could be timing down the "ultimate ganker".

now, im sure upper echelon guilds have better builds than my riposter

but the concept still stands. By giving up a bit of gank for a build that dominates what the other team wants to send back, I give my flag stand team a massive advantage. And that is why "ganking" is such a cringe word to me.

You gank to force a split IMO. And ganking for the sake of hoping you get to VOD and have a 15 second advantage until your NPCS get: SF'ed, Surged + Pained, Insta Meteor'ed, Catapulted, Stuck behind a wall w/o LOS etc etc is a recipe for failure IMO.

Program Ftw · Nov 30, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Only a crappy flagger or a flagger playing crappy let's his flash get interrupted that way.

When I played you I interupted your Flash many a time, a won the match!

lol

Thanks,
Program~

Patrograd · Nov 30, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

nice post Oni

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 30, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Dagger sins shouldn't be a problem with an interrupt on your bar. Just interrupt a part of their combo and you're good to go, no Riposte needed.

I do agree that a lot of the purpose of splits is forcing the enemy to play your game, however. Not only do they have to fight you on two fronts, but they have to constantly move back and forth between those fronts to run flags. Forcing multiple characters to constantly run between two battles is an excellent way of shutting them down.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 30, 2006, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Program Ftw

When I played you I interupted your Flash many a time, a won the match!

lol

Thanks,
Program~

I was playing utterly terrible that night. There's really no excuse to let it get interrupted, every ranger anticipates the cast, so you just delay it.

Program Ftw · Nov 30, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I was playing utterly terrible that night. There's really no excuse to let it get interrupted, every ranger anticipates the cast, so you just delay it.

Yeah, but when you have pressure like that on you, you will just blind on reflex. The cool thing was, we packed mending touch for unconditional removal. :P

Imo to get the best out of interupts you need to observe whats going on, and look for movements of the charecter.

Example, when a elem is running, then turns around, or a warrior breaks off one target and runs to your back line, you can place a good bet it will be an Eviscerate.

Reflex Interupting is also an aspect of it, although it can be horrible to do when you have some lag. With 16 ping it's leet

It's impossible to interupt a .5 second cast from reflex, however with a .75 it is entirely possible.

Thanks,
Program~

Silk Weaver · Nov 30, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Through pure reflex, at recurve range? I refuse to believe it possible at longbow range, which is where you need to be in a 1v1 situation (I think they can Bflash everytime you malice until poison runs out, which isn't actually that long. 13+33% at 12 wilderness, actually). I live with lag though, so maybe that's it. 3/4 not standing right next to target seems neigh impossible to me unless you do some guesswork, which is why is part of the cripshot pride.

What about cover-casting? I know people who go esc happy when they know a cripshot is around, but that's usually with a heal/dev signet in a flagstand battle.

Program Ftw · Nov 30, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Through pure reflex, at recurve range? I refuse to believe it possible at longbow range, which is where you need to be in a 1v1 situation (I think they can Bflash everytime you malice until poison runs out, which isn't actually that long. 13+33% at 12 wilderness, actually). I live with lag though, so maybe that's it. 3/4 not standing right next to target seems neigh impossible to me unless you do some guesswork, which is why is part of the cripshot pride.

What about cover-casting? I know people who go esc happy when they know a cripshot is around, but that's usually with a heal/dev signet in a flagstand battle.

And getting Flash while not next to them is possible, I've done it enough times to be sure of that, right Thom?

The are much much better skills than Signet of Malice to use on a Ranger if you want to loose Two Conditions. And for skill cancelling, I'm not sure it's possible to cancel Blinding Flash?

Thanks,
Program~

Silk Weaver · Nov 30, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Reflex, absolutely no predicting? At what range?

Either way, there is a risk.

And skill cancelling.. I think possible, but obviously they'll be using another spell (lower energy), cancel it (aftercast), then use flash.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 30, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

You can't cancel blinding flash reliably, that thing goes off fast (at least after the button is pressed and you're in range). And program is right, bad warriors will lead you right to the spike target, meaning if you're on ranger, you can interrupt. I just flash them.

Earendil · Nov 30, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

I'm not a very experimented flag runner or ganker so bear with my errors. Yet...

What I understood from this thread is that:

1. Ganking and antiganking has become a must in the metagame.

2. Ganking is not just for killing NPCs but also to disrupt the enemy's flagstand team. If they have to send two people to chase your one you have done your job.

3. A ganker should be capable of acting as antigank and sometimes flag runner.

4. There are several gank/antigank individual builds. Among them - sins, E/mo blinders, Cripshot rangers, Yaahoo warriors. In a 1 vs 1 fight, the victory usually goes to the most skilled player ... Yaahoos seem to have a slight advantage as antigank go.

My question is: all those builds rely on conditions for their build to work. Wouldn't then a Melandru dervish be a good choice to counter each of this builds ? I mean, a ganker/antiganker doesn't really have to keep the avatar up all the time and if you can't defeat the enemy ganker in 60 secs well....tough luck.

A gankers duel would also avoid the usual Dervish shortcomings: no enchant removals, no massive healings to compensate the slow rate of attack. You have a running stance in Mysticism (Pious Haste) and an attack speed boost (heart of fury). Scythe skills do sufficient damage (especially wearying strike) and you could go secondary on sword, axe or daggers. There are many self heal options to bring and the secondary gives the possibility of teleports, interrupts etc.

I think a Melandru dervish would have a decent success against NPCs if it ever goes to this and could also help his team at flagstand somehow, or even run the flag. It's also a pure NF build which will come handy.

Haven't seen many dervishes gankers in GvG so... What am I missing

?

Drewfense · Nov 30, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

Haven't seen many dervishes gankers in GvG so... What am I missing

?

umm...ok

Almost every team that isn't eurospike is running a Grenths Dervish. It isn't uncommon to see another paired with him at the flagstand (Lame running a melandrus for anti bsurge, Te running lyssa for pressure). As for gankers, lame, the bouncers, and several others have used melandrus. It took dervishes awhile to catch on for a couple reasons, but now they are very popular.

My guess is that bflash isn't that hard to cancel. Gift of Health can be canceled consistantly and it is a 3/4 second cast as well.

Stealth Rider · Dec 01, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

I'm not sure if using screaming arrow is going to do it though.

Ive played vs some pretty good YAA wars. havent lost to one 1v1 yet. Screaming=win, as long as you time it right (which isnt too hard.)

Quote:

Essentially, yes, but that's assuming they managed to not dodge an arrow at maximum range, right?

it *is* Savage Shot after all...

Quote:

I'm fretting over that simply because it happens to me. Once I get the poison in, I can, eventually, win over through constant spamming of malice by keeping out of range (cripple + stride). You probably will have to stay out of range, because: how many times can you spam malice before poison runs out? twice? Thrice? So basically they only need to use Blinding Flash three, or, if you have 16 Poison duration, four times before you become blinded with no means of removing it. Because of this it will be a very drawn out battle even at the best of times, possibly stalemate if they have healing breeze unless you can interrupt healing breeze with a longbow.

Scrim an E/mo, with or without mending Touch. Savage first, if thye blind, rmeove it, if they remove poison, get out of range. if they blind, rmeove it and count out the recharge, fire off Distract shot. If ti hits, GG, interrupt their breeze and youll win fairly easily (touch is only a minor problem, but distracting it isnt very hard either). Both breeze and Gale are 1s and thus fairly easy interrupts, just Crip em and stay close, Screaming as often as possible for that nice damage and to reapply bleed if nessecary. Dont lose track of the Blind recharge, and youll win that without much trouble.

YAAs, just crip em and hit Sig/Malice right when YAA hits. Just manage your distance from him (dont want to be too far, youll want to get his healsig) along with his recharges and youll win thta fairly easily. Keep on top of the conditons (make sure you sig ASAP when YAA hits, and use Screaming to cover Crips while his Sig/Malice recharges) and he'll be forced to run and heal, where you pretty much have him cancelling healsigs for his life. Again, keep track of Healsig's recharge if/when you distract it and youll win without much of a problem.

Silk Weaver · Dec 01, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Last of Master (Last of Dervish) has used Melandru's Avatar for a 2 man split, I believe.

As for Cripshots. I say, if they dodge the first shot, your only chance is to run and try again. Honestly, the good thing about fighting Air E/Mos is that you will probably never die since they have no snaring. Even against hybrids, you have a chance. Water eles probably won't be able to interrupt troll, so you will, eventually, run away.

You can kill an E/Mo, but it is only if you get the first shot in. I haven't tested this extensively, but let's use numbers, which this game is based on. Fact is that a good player will be able to dodge arrows at max range (longbow or recurve), especially if they are aware of you-- which they will be in a 1v1 situation. I would assume that a flagger would be trained to understand the risks a cripshot poses.

Even assuming your poison hits. So what? If they are to blind you back after each malice, they only need to use blinding flash 3 times before your poison runs out and you will be forced to run again, take note that he could have orbed you thrice in the meantime. This energy can be taken care of through ether prodigy, I don't need to give you the numbers.

From this, I can only conclude that the best solution is to stay outside of range with a longbow. And try to use cripple/spam interrupt/natural stride to slowly wittle him down. Of course he might have breeze.

Are you sure you can interrupt breeze outside of spell range (ie.longbow)? Do you undererstand that the travel time itself is huge already for this kind of interrupt?

The same goes for YAA, Crippling, staying out of shout range and interrupting Healsig is the best bet. Referring to catching his YAA with your sig... isn't it a shout? So doesn't it mean that he can use YAA and Malice at the same time? I think that would mean that the only chance for you if you're in range is to use Signet of Malice between a) YAA's activation b) Finished activation of Signet of Malice. That's less than 1/4....

Otherwise, his cripple will be removed. Barre interrupting a 1/4 signet, he will continue to YAA/Malice, and you will have to continue to spam Crippling Shot.

Let's say he YAAs you, you cripshot (oh wait, he could dodge this too, since it's at range), and he malices right after so you can't malice, so you cripshot again and malice, right when his YAA recharges, so he YAA/Malices again, meanwhile you spent 3 cripshots and slashing at you. Bleeding might have settled in already to cover cripple. You spend more and more energy, and the 24 duration of Apply Poison slowly runs out... what do you do?

That was assuming that the YAA gets first strike, of course, but I find that quite likely as it is easy to run from recurve/longbow range to YAA range in which they could malice after your poison sets in, and before you malice. Actually, some pack shadow stepping as well, so that's even more interesting. Because you'll have to cripple (draw time...) then malice whereas the YAA only has to shout and malice, you will slowly lose out in terms of positioning, health, energy, and adrenaline.

I am not a YAA, and have not fought one. Can a YAA tell me then? Do Cripshots really own YAAs? I would've thought that YAAs wouldn't have become so popular and cripshots wouldn't have fallen (relatively) out of grace if this were true. I think it depends on skill and situation, but I would give YAA the upper hand due to no activation, no need to prepare poison, and faster attacks opposed to a cripshot's.

To Earendil. Again, it seems that it depends on the build very much so, but while YAA seems more independant, it's nowhere as fast as a sin and, in my mind, as useful in a split/flagstand battle as the Cripshot or E/Mo.

As for cancelling, you can always cancel another spell, it doesn't matter which spell you cancel, but it's obviously best to cancel the lowest costing one (lightning strike? Breeze?)

I bolded my points for great justice so I don't have to repeat them again.

Stealth Rider · Dec 01, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

The same goes for YAA, Crippling, staying out of shout range and interrupting Healsig is the best bet. Referring to catching his YAA with your sig... isn't it a shout? So doesn't it mean that he can use YAA and Malice at the same time? I think that would mean that the only chance for you if you're in range is to use Signet of Malice between a) YAA's activation b) Finished activation of Signet of Malice. That's less than 1/4....

Last i checked, people arent perfect. People tend to have a delay between using YAA and sig/malice. Its rpetty much a malice-race.

And as i said, you do not want to be too far from the YAA war, as youll never get his healsig. You want to be as close to mid-range as you can stay, which makes it harder for him to dodge and easier for you to interrupt his healsigs.

YAA wars are used more often because a) they add War pressure as opposed to simple poison spread, b) they have more armor, allowing them to push for flaggers when nessecary without much fear, c) they can kill NPCs faster, and the most important reason, d) YAA cant be dodged, goes through blind, and cant be interrupted. with all of those advantages, the fact that *some* (kind of a specific bar...) Cripshots can kill them without much trouble is a bit...unimportant.

Quote:

If they are to blind you back after each malice, they only need to use blinding flash 3 times before your poison runs out and you will be forced to run again, take note that he could have orbed you thrice in the meantime

Get out of cast range, wait out the duration, get back in, Savage. Or just sig right after the blind, count the recharge and be ready to interrupt. If you hit sig asap after the first blind, and miss interrupting the next blind, your sig will recharge in 1sec, and youll be blinded for a total of 1-2seconds, enough time to get a Cripshot or Screaming in. trying to hit an Emo with a longbow is like trying to kill a deer with a fly swatter. Wont work too well. Hell, if youre really thta afraid of him dodging, and youre in their base, poison an archer(not while blind of course...). they dont exactly...move much.

Quote:

Let's say he YAAs you, you cripshot (oh wait, he could dodge this too, since it's at range), and he malices right after so you can't malice, so you cripshot again and malice, right when his YAA recharges, so he YAA/Malices again, meanwhile you spent 3 cripshots and slashing at you. Bleeding might have settled in already to cover cripple. You spend more and more energy, and the 24 duration of Apply Poison slowly runs out... what do you do?

i dont get myself into a situation like that. I let him YAA me, and i hit screaming. He sig/malices. Once he malices, i Cripshot, malice myself, and hit Stride and get to where i want to be. From then on it isnt hard to keep him cripped and degenning, just need to Malice before he does.

If he doesnt malice at first, i use it myself and get far enough, then Cripshot. he YAAs, i remove it. if he removes it first (most people arent exactly...perfect.) then i Crip again and malice. thats pretty much how the fight goes, us trading Crips, though i have the upper hand in my degen. Usually he breaks before i do. (usually meaning, so far i havent broken to a YAA war if i didnt do something totally moronic like hit a wrong button.) Eventually he'd need to heal, and unless i do something stupid i wouldnt be that badly hurt. As long as i keep counting his recharges i can get on top of his removal and shut him down.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 01, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Once blinded, you will BE blinded. He has enough energy to keep you blinded indefinetly, enough to spam it ever 5 seconds to counter your signet till poison runs out... chance of Dshotting BFlash while blinded is so low we're not going to go there. If they have a speed buff, it's going to be even more ridiculous.

B-flash's recharge doesn't counter Signet of Malice. You SoM just after he B-flashes you and you've got enough time to get off another arrow before his Flash comes back, at which point the poison is reapplied and you get to Malice off his next blind.

All this talk about Blinding Flash's recharge somehow 'countering' Signet of Malice doesn't make any sense.

Silk Weaver · Dec 01, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

People tend to have a delay between using YAA and sig/malice.

You can simply press buttons both at the same times. I use my index and ring finger, you? This means you only have a .25 second gap for you to fit in Signet of Malice, which also means that you must start using malice BEFORE he does, which means that you have to guess when he malices, and be accurate within a .25 or even .1 range-- through guessing only. It's like interrupting RoF with a power leak. Can you do it? Sometimes.

Quote:

Get out of cast range, wait out the duration, get back in, Savage.

I happen to have been saying that the most reliable way to deal with an E/Mo (or YAA) is to stay out of range and/or hope that you're a better player than he. Either way, it'll be a long battle, and I think it's easier on the E/Mo than the ranger. It will be difficult/impossible for an E/Mo to kill a ranger, but he can heal party as he's dealing with you, giving him the advantage. Once blinded, you will BE blinded. He has enough energy to keep you blinded indefinetly, enough to spam it ever 5 seconds to counter your signet till poison runs out... chance of Dshotting BFlash while blinded is so low we're not going to go there. If they have a speed buff, it's going to be even more ridiculous.

You're still neglecting the arrow dodging.

Quote:

i dont get myself into a situation like that.

That would highly depend on the skill factor of the cripshot and warrior then. The facts as I listed out up there, however, seem to point out that it's much more tense for the ranger, much easier to screw up.

Speaking of which Shadow Prison combo has a pretty high chance of sinking too, if he watches when you use stride. Black Spider + Twisting. =

Edit:

Quote:

B-flash's recharge doesn't counter Signet of Malice. You SoM just after he B-flashes you and you've got enough time to get off

As it happens, Bflash recharge is less than SoM. If you Flash right after he SoMs, you can do it again next time he SoMs, and then a third time. The idea is that you can blind him right after he malices so he can never land a shot despite of having SoM.

Like I said it, depends very much on who has first strike. If the ranger has it, then he can potentially threaten the E/Mo. Of course, knowing that, I think it very normal for a sensible E/Mo to not charge straight at the ranger. If the ranger cannot get his first shot in, he's lost that particular battle. He can only hope to try again and hope the E/Mo would slip up. Enervating charge will make this all useless, of course, since the only way to remove both at the same time is through crippling shot. Due to the firing time of crippling shot it's even easier to side step it, or even to blind the ranger before the arrow is shot, depending on long/recurve bow. If he doesn't, then his Bflash would have recharged by the time he has removed weakness and is about to remove blind, at which point the emo can continuously refresh it. Similarily Gale or Speedbuffs can make the situation even more difficult. Surely I don't need to illustrate this?