Curse

fatboyslimerr · Nov 28, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Right. Fairly close range with a recurve a sharp player will be nailing those 0.75 casts, but mostly due to awareness and watching for the turn or the stop that indicates someone is about to cast - picking and choosing what you interrupt in that circumstance isn't going to be easy.

With Mesmer interrupts I think it's possible to check the skill being used before you hit the button, due to their shorter 'cast' time and lack of flight time.

When I play crip shot, the key to chain interrupting blinding flash is preemptive interrupting. This basically works by getting blind, having some way of removing it, requiring the ele to reapply the blind. If this works out, start counting after they use blinding flash the first time, 4 seconds laster (or slightly before) use distracting shot. This relies on player predictability but works about 70-80% of the time. A great way to practice this is the master of healing in isle of the nameless. I should get a title for chain rupting healing touch

One of your guildies taught me that JR

Symbol · Nov 28, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

I've never had a problem, with interrupting Blinding Flash/Surge or other skills like Eviscerate are fun to interrupt too!

If you can do it on reaction (that is actually recognizing the skill before hitting the interrupt) then you are truly a master. It's fairly easy to get a .75 sec cast if you mash the button as soon as you see them start to cast, but there's no guarantee that your opponent is casting what you want to interrupt.

Patrograd · Nov 28, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Knowing that, design your gankers to kill gankers, not archers.

Superb quote imo, perfectly summing up the meta ;-)

Program Ftw · Nov 28, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If you can do it on reaction (that is actually recognizing the skill before hitting the interrupt) then you are truly a master.

I know, and am.

Thanks,
Program~

Thom Bangalter · Nov 28, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Only a crappy flagger or a flagger playing crappy let's his flash get interrupted that way.

Stealth Rider · Nov 29, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Right. Fairly close range with a recurve a sharp player will be nailing those 0.75 casts, but mostly due to awareness and watching for the turn or the stop that indicates someone is about to cast - picking and choosing what you interrupt in that circumstance isn't going to be easy.

Pretty much. When im 1v1 vs an ele, i normally fire off a Savage as soon as theyre in cast range (assuming i have LoS of course.) If i hit nothing, ok, theyre poisoned. If i hit BFlash, i wait out the recharge, watch how they move and Dshot when i think they'll cast. if i miss, and am blinded, i get out of cast range and wait the blind out, and repeat with the hope of forcing a mistake or just keeping the ele there. Counting recharges of things like BFlash and Mending Touch is a requirement for success, though. (this is without Sig/Malice or mending touch)

With Sig/Malice, firing off a Savage or Distract right away pretty much means GG.

Quote:

Only a crappy flagger or a flagger playing crappy let's his flash get interrupted that way.

if you mean by the first D Shot, then yea, but otherwise it really isnt as hard as you may think. yes getting something other than what you hope for is a distinct possibility, but its still interrupting something, and thats just as important especially if its a Windborne, Gale, Mending Touch, etc. besides, even if youre blind youre still split off in their base, menaing thta ele would need to stay back to deal with you. Thats one less char at the stand, and less blind on your wars (probably with less Heal Party as well)

And yes, IMO solo ganks are viable, but i prefer a team that can send off that Warrior or flagger if nessecary. Assasins are not viable at all IMO, as their bar doenst always have room for something like mending touch, and they arent very useful at the stand in most situations.

Silk Weaver · Nov 29, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Stealth, you need to catch up to the trend ^^. I direct you to the A/Mo Skuld has posted over at Assassin (campfire).

The bar is: Black Spider, Twisting, Disrupting Daggers, Shadow Prison, Shadow of Haste, Mending Touch, Feigned Neutrality, Deadly Paradox.

You have a pretty good healing, Deadly Paradox gives it an acceptable recharge as well as cancels shadow of haste for Shadow Step + Return. Black Spider and Twisting is garunteed kill for archers, and a threat to normal players without dependable healing (cripshots), daggers interrupt healsig/troll unguent. Mending Touch can let it survive against cripshots and YAAs, posssibly kill a cripshot if he's lucky (shadow step, 2 hit combo, interrupt troll), unless the natural stride kicks in (moderate chance) or they interrupt you (should be easy if they expect it, so I'll give it a moderate chance as well. Afterall, they are slowed afterwards, and they might not expect you to go right against him, and it's just 2 hits to land. Depends.) They can survive a YAA, but possibly not kill it due to short healsig recharge.

I'm starting to agree with that sins aren't as effective, but nonetheless, they are not as useless as you might think. I've got a solo gank npc gank build I've been working on, differnet concept, but similar effect essentially, and I'm hoping to be able to counter cripshots and YAAs, which would be nice. I was hoping to gauge its usefullness from the thread's response initially.

Against flashbots though, the chances of an assassin aare small. Mending Touch could cost more to a sin unable to land any hits than Blinding Flash from an Ele with Ether Prodigy. If they aren't brain dead, bring breeze, orb, strike, gale, or a combination of them, you have no chance killing it.

But neither have YAAs and, to an extent, Cripshots-- if your skill level is not skewred. E/Mos simply aren't easy to kill 1v1 with a physical character. Malice can bring serious threat to a E/Mo, yes, but be realistic. Perosnally I land Crippling Shot with a long bow first and don't give a shit about interrupts simply becuase I know some people bring enervating charge to cover it. 2 conditions? GG. Mending touch costs too much for it to not be on the dangerous side, and although you can, theoretically, spam arrows till you get poison and then use signet of malice, they have far better healing than what apply poison and approximately 10 marksmanship can do, can flash more often than you can malice, and... yeah. Like you said, it's possible to interrupt flash and healing breeze, but there is always a risk, you'll be galed (maybe) and continually blinded, and the E/Mo won't always be blinding right before blind ends either. Psychic interrupting is difficult in 1v1 situations with pros, it's very dependable during splits and flagstand fights where they spam or use skills depending on situation, so you can guess when they cast the spells by gauging the situation around you. E/Mos will blind or breeze after you interrupt and during your aftercast. The best chance is to poison, interrupt breeze (or hope they don't have it), and stay out of range with natural stride, pricking him with poison arrows. It's a slow battle, and I don't think it works well against those with experience.

Yes. My opinion is that the best bet is to predict when they cast the spells, and not actually watch for it on the screen. I'm personally more a believer of being psychic than impossible reaction times. Seriously, arrow flight time is approximately .05 seconds, KK? So you have, what's that, .20 second. Add a bit for internet connection if you will, so that's .15 second response time, and I think that might be being a bit generous.

Hey, if you can really react to seeing him use the skill (on the bar), or rather, react to seeing him use a 3/4 skill (not even caring what he's using) and interrupt it, you better go get special training or something. Even 1 second spells are edgy if you're not right next to them (aka over extended and being screamed at on the comm.) they can be done, and we do it all the time, but there is a risk, and this risk is increased when they are more than aware of your presence. A flagger trains to be able to deal with you-- this is not one-way.

In my opinion, it's more a mental game than a reaction game, interrupt these skills. You know when a skill has recharge and you know when they'll use it. You know when eviserate has charged, you know that they'll shoot blind asap, you can take aftercast into account, etc etc. It's not just reaction.

Do we have an infuser here? Tell me, is infusing pure reaction? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Relambrien · Nov 29, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

A guildie of mine absolutely LOVES ganking, and on a certain isle (can't remember the name o_O, new NF one that looks kind of jungle-like, flag stand isn't in the direct path to the enemy base, covered in water, etc), he ganked the bodyguard with an A/Mo in 2:05. Took out I think two archers and maybe one knight along the way, but I'm not sure.

But that is, of course, on a straight gank with no enemies returning. But in 2:05, assuming :30 to get to the enemy base, that's only 90 seconds the opponents have to determine who's going to go back and for that person to actually get back. Against the level of teams we play at, it takes around 60 seconds for the enemy to determine what to do and then however much time it takes after that to actually do it.

But whoever said that ganking serves another purpose, like the flag stand pressure, is right. There was a debate going on in my guild about how to deal with an enemy blindbot with one assassin (off-topic: which I won, by the way, but I'm not going to get into that), and that eventually led to an obs match with two high-level guilds. One was running a standard two-person gank team with high pressure on the main team.

The gankers forced the enemy to send back a monk to prevent NPC's dying, and the pressure at the stand overwhelmed the remaining monk. With a well-thought-out build, this is another glorious benefit to ganking.

Etrik · Nov 29, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

With a well-thought-out build, this is another glorious benefit to ganking.

Relambrien: Cultural Learnings Of Ganking For Make Benefit Great Nation Of GuildWarsGuru, anyone?

Stealth Rider · Nov 29, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

lotsa stuff

two words: Screaming Arrow.

Bleed+Poison covering Crip=YAA war that can't do much. also negates most Heal breezes, and makes removing Blind a whole lot easier while being a very useful spike skill that can help condition spread and means that much faster archer kills.

Problem is, it'll most likely cost you your res sig slot. IMO, its worth it.

Silk Weaver · Nov 29, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

That's 2 shots. You'd be blinded, and poison/cripple will be removed before then. Afteral, signet has 1/2 cast, blind 3/4. Also, YAA recharges at 10, and malice at 5. See the problem? A YAA will be an issue. You still have better speed buff and block with natural stride, but it's still going to be an issue. I'm not sure if using screaming arrow is going to do it though.

JR · Nov 29, 2006, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Yes. My opinion is that the best bet is to predict when they cast the spells, and not actually watch for it on the screen. I'm personally more a believer of being psychic than impossible reaction times. Seriously, arrow flight time is approximately .05 seconds, KK? So you have, what's that, .20 second. Add a bit for internet connection if you will, so that's .15 second response time, and I think that might be being a bit generous.

0.14, last time I tested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Do we have an infuser here? Tell me, is infusing pure reaction? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

I think you mean 'is it pure reflex'; everything is a reaction.

The answer is no, most of the time you have clues as to who the spike will be on. Sometimes it is just intuition and a bit of guesswork - i.e. having the guy with DP pre-selected, as he will probably be hit again, or your mesmer screwing their spikes, or your hard res. Then there is the physical signals - mainly direction the casters are facing, or who a warrior runs to, looking for that hex indicator for Phantom Pain or Shadow Prison...

...but I digress - a good infuser does not rely on pure reflex to catch spikes, although having sharp reflexes certainly does help.

sir lockt · Nov 29, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

... aah now i get it why I always fail... my response time is usual 0.141... hmm thnx JR for your solid testing

On the response topic to stop BF... I believe it is possible to stop... remember that you can expect the BF in certain occasions, since most players are extremely predictable. As our chief mesmer in my guild told me:

1 secs are solid interupts, 0.75 when you sit on him to interupt and 0.50 you can if you expect it in about 50% of the times (e.g. luck)... and believe me he did it...

Back to the topic: we use gankers for some time...we used triple, duo and solo. We used sins, rangers, mesmers and recently mostly YAA. for us its purpose is threefold: kill NPCs, provide distraction and slow the runner. This will either force some ppl back, lose morale boost or lose VoD.

A ganker that cannot kill a thing isnt a problem as long as he pins down at least 2 persons... since the rest of the team wins you the game.

Still we find that relying on gankers confuses everything below ranks 500 mostly...above that you really need to expect some serious countering of your ganks... the strenght of the ganks lies not in the build you use, but in the ability of the opponent to counter it...or not of course

JR · Nov 29, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir lockt

... aah now i get it why I always fail... my response time is usual 0.141... hmm thnx JR for your solid testing

I meant 1.4 was my average reaction time, the last time I tested it - meaning the estimate of 0.15 given in the post I quoted is a realistic aim.

sir lockt · Nov 29, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I meant 1.4 was my average reaction time, the last time I tested it - meaning the estimate of 0.15 given in the post I quoted is a realistic aim.

then I wish you luck with polishing your response time... I am affraid the improvement from 14 to 1.4 secs was the easy part.

Of course you can always bring an NPC nobody beats them on reaction time

Farin · Nov 29, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

But neither have YAAs and, to an extent, Cripshots-- if your skill level is not skewred. E/Mos simply aren't easy to kill 1v1 with a physical character. Malice can bring serious threat to a E/Mo, yes, but be realistic. Perosnally I land Crippling Shot with a long bow first and don't give a shit about interrupts simply becuase I know some people bring enervating charge to cover it. 2 conditions? GG. Mending touch costs too much for it to not be on the dangerous side, and although you can, theoretically, spam arrows till you get poison and then use signet of malice, they have far better healing than what apply poison and approximately 10 marksmanship can do, can flash more often than you can malice, and... yeah. Like you said, it's possible to interrupt flash and healing breeze, but there is always a risk, you'll be galed (maybe) and continually blinded, and the E/Mo won't always be blinding right before blind ends either. Psychic interrupting is difficult in 1v1 situations with pros, it's very dependable during splits and flagstand fights where they spam or use skills depending on situation, so you can guess when they cast the spells by gauging the situation around you. E/Mos will blind or breeze after you interrupt and during your aftercast. The best chance is to poison, interrupt breeze (or hope they don't have it), and stay out of range with natural stride, pricking him with poison arrows. It's a slow battle, and I don't think it works well against those with experience.

Wait what? This is complete bs if you ask me.

Killing an air emo with a YAA Warr or a Cripshot with either signet of malice or mending (even without them) is retardedly easy. I think you're forgetting about energy. Having ether prodigy doesn't mean you'll have enough to spam blinding flash, enervating charge and healing breeze for as long as you want.
If you. Eles only have so much time before you kill them. Unless they're designed to kill things they're better off running away will they can.

Silk Weaver · Nov 30, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Wait what? This is complete bs if you ask me.

/doh

I wasn't thinking. Speicfically with "physical characters" I meant before the nightfall update. I completely forgot about the YAA.

I would say this is one of the reasons why YAAs are popular too.

I'm not too sure about this then, as I haven't actually had lots of time after the update. Nonetheless, how can a YAA or Cripshot without Signet of Malice be able to kill an Air Emo? If I managed to forget about YAAs, there must be something else I'm forgetting, but if not for Signet of Malice, wouldn't the warrior be constantly blinded? And even with mending touch, 5 energy is much harder to come by than 15 from an E/Mo with ether prod, so spamming that wouldn't actually work.

As for Cripshots... okay this could be seriously embarassing, but uhm... what?

This is why I mentioned longbowing with crippling shot when meeting an E/Mo, this is so Signet of Malice could remove blind and weakness, and then you can proceed to try interrupt the next flash that comes or simply stay at longbow range if possible. So it's either those two options, or trying to interrupt the first flash (which I thought was stupid, but whatever).

However, longbow shots can be dodged if they're careful, and, although I'm not sure if we're not in agreement, bflash is not easy to interrupt, especially at range, and definetly not if they actively try to cover by casting another spell first (aftercast ftl). Once you've been blinded, it becomes a losing battle, and you'll be forced to run and try again... or just run.

See, from what I can see, once blinded it will take, on average 24 seconds (or 20 seconds with a short bow) for apply poison to strike home, this excluding the time to actually refresh apply poison, also excluding the emo deciding to gale you while you prepare. Ahem, anyway. On the occasion where you managed to get poison in (extinguish.... nah), you can use signet of malice, in which case you will crip shot them and try to interrupt the next B Flash, which, could be difficult, mind you, again relating to cover-casting and distance/obstacle/gale!. But even assuming that you can with godlike reflex/luck interrupt Bflash, that is theoretically impossible since signet of malice has an aftercast.

So you've just been poisoned. You use Signet of Malice to remove it. HMMM. Basically, if you say you can interrupt a spell in 0.14, or let's just say 0.25 seconds. If then why can't the opposing Emo blind you right afterwards in a time frame of what I must approximately guess to be 1.5-2.2 (1/4 cast, 3/4 aftercast, 1.2/0.5 draw time + negligible arrow flight time) seconds with a 3/4 castime spell? Using 3/4 cast time and let's just assume, according to JR <.25 reflex/lag minus arrow flight time, he has more than half a second to go "oh shit, he has signet of malice, I've got to blind him again".

Of course, at this moment, ignoring duration of apply poison, you can use malice once every 6 seconds (aftercast+activation), which is 7.5 pips of energy if the E/Mo has to spam blinding flash, which, yes, will cause serious energy issues. However, aside from the poison duration I've mentioned, the E/Mo had, theoretically speaking, around 20 seconds (assuming short bow, and ignore using Dshot or Sshot to as IAS ala Prot Strike, which is huge a e drain/waste/improbability) to orb you while you were waiting to finally land that arrow, and the fact that you have to refresh apply poison (let's assume he doesn't gale that, wanting gale troll instead). If you tried to dodge orbs (surely he'd go close enough...) you'd have spent even more time running around, thus, more time firing and using AP.

From this then, wouldn't you be already dead or close to that by the time poison finally sets in and you can spam malice him and hope that he runs out of energy (?) or miss a bflash so you can interrupt it? These battles with E/Mos are long. I used malice before Nightfall, and thusly before Natural Stride, but from what I can tell, I only ever win if the E/Mo screws up, otherwise I either get help, get beaten away, or we get a stalemate in which I have to dance around while the E/Mo's probably reading a book or something. It's a losing battle.

The chances of interrupting blinding flash while actually blinded already is... small. So let's just exclude miracles.

To JR: If I really have bad reflex, then I content myself with the fact that I'm born with it. Or is it? Don't get into science, I don't know. 3/4 spells are hard to interrupt for me, and from what I can tell, it's a risk for the better interrupters as well. I look for things like recharge-guessing, positioning, and movement mostly. Okay, I'll be honest and rephrase that, 3/4 spells are impossible for me to interrupt by purely looking at the target's skill activation. Maybe it's because of where I live, maybe because I suck. Crest can attest to the former though.

Oh, and I have no excuses for my bad English.

Oh wait, I do, I'm Chinese ^^

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 30, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

If you're a Sig of Malice cripshot dueling an air ele, you fire an interrupt as soon as you get into casting range. If they have B-flash cued up, you hit the interrupt. If they don't, they're poisoned and you can Sig of Malice off their next blind. After that, Sig of Malice's recharge fits in nicely with Blinding Flash and you can easily get off a cripple. Extinguish isn't a problem because the next arrow while hit by the time the time aftercast + Bflash is over.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 30, 2006, 08:58 AM // 08:58

All I can say is, as a flagger (always e/mo), mending touch and signet of malice piss me off to no extent. Basically, I can't keep them blind, so I have to fall back to npcs, keep them healed up, and wait for some help to get the flag to the stand. I'm tempted to bring mending touch on my bar for YAAhoos and crip shots, but I sacrifice so much to get that on my bar (either deep freeze or healing breeze, both of which I don't know if I can live without)

Silk Weaver · Nov 30, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

If they don't, they're poisoned and you can Sig of Malice off their next blind.

Essentially, yes, but that's assuming they managed to not dodge an arrow at maximum range, right?

I'm fretting over that simply because it happens to me. Once I get the poison in, I can, eventually, win over through constant spamming of malice by keeping out of range (cripple + stride). You probably will have to stay out of range, because: how many times can you spam malice before poison runs out? twice? Thrice? So basically they only need to use Blinding Flash three, or, if you have 16 Poison duration, four times before you become blinded with no means of removing it. Because of this it will be a very drawn out battle even at the best of times, possibly stalemate if they have healing breeze unless you can interrupt healing breeze with a longbow.

Mending Touch seems to be a higher energy drain for a warrior than blinding flash to an Ele with Ether Prod (a bit less than 5x energy regeneration vs 3x cost of Bflash), but I don't blindbot so it might not be like that practically...

Yeah, Yaahoos would be nasty.