Curse

Silk Weaver · Nov 26, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

I've been playing with gank builds all day, testing on dummies, then bugging friends to let me test on NPCs, etc etc etc.

The trend solo gankers would be Cripshots from long ago, A/E sins, to now the Shadow Prison > Black Spider > Twisting Fangs.

There are also the YAA warrirors and similar, but those are usually slower, and meant for splits, counter ganks, etc as well.

Those aside, and focusing purely on ganking as fast as possible, with some safety measures as well, obviously, how fast can a sin gank?

During my tests, I've found some interesting results. Been testing on Isle of the Dead, and I know that's not exactly a gank map (I can test on others as well) but using a cookie cutter Shock Sin or "Black Widow" as Skuld posted at campfire or whatever people call it nowadays, going for the NPCs right off the bat, what's a good elapsed time for killing all archers, or at least archers in the way, bodyguards, and knights?

Any other thoughts are welcome too, of course.

Seamus Finn · Nov 26, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

That isn't really a question that I think can be answered. When you go to gank, chances are your focus will quickly change depending on how the opposing team reacts(and they probably will). Will you have a flashbot in your face the whole time? If so, maybe you would do better to harrass the flagger and get morale boosts. That's just an example. Basically, if your team has an NPC advantage(particular knights and bodyguards out of the picture), you've probably done your job. But to play a ganker and think you will just clean out the base in X minutes is kind of naive.

Silk Weaver · Nov 26, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

As for it being naive, yes, in a way.

But are the listed builds meant to not become useless as soon as they send a flashbot back? Surely, there must be a balance between speed of gank (as this would mean more kills and possibly near wipe of npcs before the anti ganker arrives), and ability to solo another ganker/flagger.

As the latter detail is hard to determine, I'm trying to deal with the former first. In terms of 1v1s, it would seem that the general strategy is to flee. The cripshot has distortion, the Shock Sin has Dark Escape, and the new sin has Feigned Neautrality and speed buffs. See the trend? The skills for gankers, sins especially, seems to focus on making kills before they reach them, and survivng while killing NPCs to essentially waste the opponent's resource, forcing them to send forces back.

Mending Touch saves an A/Mo from YAA warriors, so in that sense, the ability to face an anti gank -is- considered. Still, in terms of speed, how long does a gank take? This is not really a question to know how long till the assassin finishes his job, but also to gauge how many kills it can make before the defender returns, as a good defender could usually end the gank in a standstill, so the more kills made before they return the better.

That is to say, speed is still an important element of ganking.

Patrograd · Nov 27, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

I ran some "vacuum" tests the other day for fun

The best "pure gank" machine I could produce, where "best" was measured on how long it took to kill the Guild Lord was a pally, who achieved 6mins 8secs, having started on the GL with both knights, bodyguard and two archers dead around 4 mins

None of which proves anything, as in a real match you wouldnt be allowed to do this and this character has limited potential elsewhere on the field

IMO, your gank squad, whether it is one guy or a group, needs to present a real threat to key NPCs. How you build that character or squad depends imo on what you want the gank to achieve. Do you want to split off a monk from their main group allowing for a roll at the stand? Do you want to just achieve an NPC advantage for VOD?

Silk Weaver · Nov 27, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

I understand this is a very broad subject, and, again, it depends on the opposing team, how the opponent reacts, among many factors.

And I'm sorry if I've been unclear, but I'm trying to focus on -solo gank sins- especially (thus the name of the topic), mainly on clearing NPCs asap for either VoD or reinforcements to rush Guild Lord.

Patrograd · Nov 27, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

And I'm sorry if I've been unclear, but I'm trying to focus on -solo gank sins- especially (thus the name of the topic), mainly on clearing NPCs asap for either VoD or reinforcements to rush Guild Lord.

I think the question is whether a solo gank sin is really the best way to do this, its a little bit "factions" if you know what I mean. I think there are quicker ways of clearing NPCs these days, and better builds for threatening flag runners - think dervishes and YAA warriors and ele/sins imo for solo ganking rather than sins

Zeldawind · Nov 27, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Well as stated before solo gankers can come in various forms really.
But what you also have to consider for taking them in a build is are they usefull aswell when you can't harass the flagger or the npcs of the enemy team and can they survive in VoD aswell? In my opinion a assasin becomes rather useless when it comes into VoD matches which you have to take in account these days.

But what you might consider is taking a dual gank team (for example SaD) hareth and barbie work together uit well. Everyone takes gank squads into mind and has something in their build that can stop them at for example bodyguards/knights. Whit 2 gankers they can stop a person from delaying them or preventing them to stop you and they will be forced to send another person back so that their main team becomes unintentional weakened, but you are so maybe your going to be able to take that to your advantage.

But its really hard to decide whats the best. But to me a E/A and a W/A YAA warrior are more reliable in pre VoD and in VoD itself then a dual assasin or anything in combination whit a assasin. (anyone remember EvIL's dual assasin build of GWFWC? The assasins pressure was really gone because iQ was prepared for the assasins and turtled till VoD and then EvIL's assasins couldn't do much anymore.)

Dodo The Extinct · Nov 27, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Zelda, what build are you referring to when you say an E/A?

My guild is trying to learn split builds, this thread is helping

Zeldawind · Nov 27, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Whit E/A i refer to mind shock eles.
I perfer something like: Mind Shock lightning strike Arc Lightning Shadow of haste dash feigned neutrality/shadow refuge (pick 1 of the 2 although shadow refuge is more pre nightfall) The rest doesn't matter much to me more personal preference, I would say something like gale so you be usefull aswell in the 8v8 to keep a chain knockdown combined whit mind shock on someone.

Stealth Rider · Nov 27, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Cripshots are reliable as ever, and with Sig/Malice, Screaming SHot and natural Stride theyre that much stronger.

Natural Stride is excelent as a getaway skill (i once ran a flag into 6 people, 2 wars, 2 monks, and an ele, hit stride and ran out alive on Isle of meditation when we didnt have the obilisk capped. i know of 7 people who can attest to that.)

Screaming is a nice +20 damage, and the bleed makes killing that much easier. YAA wars stand almost no chance vs a Cripshot with Sig/Malice and Screaming, as you have 2 conditions covering up that Cripple.

A good cripshot should get that BFlash or BSurge at least 85% of the time, but for the times you dont, Sig/malice saves the day.

Cripshots also, as always add poison spread, snares and interrupts to your flagstand team, on a character that isnt that easy to spike down.

Of course, Cripshots (even with Screaming) are pretty slow at taking out NPCs, and cant effectively solo a lord. but, send a War or flagger in with it, and you have an extremely effective gank team that shouldnt lose to anything less than 3 people (not including NPCs).

IMO, a Cripshot is the most viable option if you want a heavy split or if you want to have a safer split that can piss off flaggers better than pretty much anything else alone.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 27, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

In my opinion, a lot of people just throw "gank teams" into builds without really considering the purpose of the gank or the rest of the build. Ganks aren't just about taking shots at their NPCs and hoping to gain a VoD advantage. That's cool when the other team lets you do it, but in practice most teams will react to the gank and send enough to push you out of the base. The unsung use of a gank squad is pulling certain enemy characters off the stand, giving an advantage to your flagstand team.

QQ's old dual-assassin gank build is a nice example of this. The real reason that build worked wasn't because they had two assassins, it was because they had two assassins and heavy warrior and AoE pressure at the stand in the form of two thumpers. Teams would send back their eles to deal with the gank and end up getting rolled at the flagstand due to lack of warrior hate. QQ's build wasn't a VoD build, it was a pressure build that happened to apply its massive melee pressure in two places at once.

NUKE has been running a build this season that uses a gank to throw one of several threats at the enemy. We have a single YAA ganker who can solo most characters (except Mending Touch cripshots), so he often requires two characters constant attention to deal with him. At the flagstand we have heavy degen in the form of a tainter and Apply Poison paragon, two thumpers beating on things, and the ability to simultaneously daze both of the enemy monks. This really limits the things your standard build can send back to deal with our gank - they have to keep their Heal Party at the stand for the degen, they have to keep their draw at the stand for the dazes, and they have to keep a certain amount of warrior hate so their monks don't get overrun. A lot of teams don't have the tools in their build to handle all these threats, and if they do it can take them some time to identify what characters need to be where.

In short, you can't just throw a number of gank templates into the build and call it a day, you have to be thinking of it in terms of what you want to force off the flagstand. Do you want them to send back their eles so you can degen them out? Their warriors so your team can get away with minimal defense? Are you going to try to force a monk off the stand? Too many teams rely exclusively on the gank to get things done and make some kind of useless holding build at the flagstand. This leaves the opposition free to send back whatever they want, because your flagstand team just isn't any kind of a threat and can be safely ignored until your gank is DPed out.

Silk Weaver · Nov 28, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Firstly, Cripshot. Oh yes, read my profession. Natural Stride brought me back to life after the distortion nerf.

And yes, I guess I unturned a rather large rock. This is an, I think, important subject, but also quite large.

As to the question whether solo gank sins are useful... I don't know. That's an interesting question. To me, they kill much, much faster than a cripshot, especially in some maps. Thinking about it, "much, much" might not really be as much as it is to lose an important utility like a cripshot, especially considering that, with natural stride, a cripshot can have a speedbuff for most of the time. Same thing with YAA warriors. They are more effective at the flagstand, and both of these builds are dangerous against flaggers and have a good chance against popular defenders such as other YAAs, Cripshots, and of course, the Eles.

Speaking of which, perhaps I'm not overly good with the cripshot, but I would never consider 1v1 against an ele unless I had Signet of Malice or Mending Touch, the risk involved in whether I interrupt Blind is too much. Is Stealth Rider exageratting a bit, or am I really that bad?

Anyway, in an attempt to give this thread a direction, perhaps we could focus on the question "are solo gankers" viable in sometimes, and when?

I've never got to use an Assassin in a proper team (haha, 5 sin 1 emo 2 monks during end of season, won, but it was pure brawn), but I imagine a melee strong team (thumper/warrior) would work well, as taking away the cripshot or e/mo from the flagstand would thus be riskier for the opponents, which I think is just me echoing what Squidget said. At the same time, an Assassins might be useful in a mobile team, as splits might be adjusted to reinforce the ganker, as well as to charge the hall when nessesary.

On a side note, just for reference, and please excuse the shallowness, but a small poll on the assassins. Obviously, it would have to have a speed buff, heal, and most likely condition removal, but what's a good time for a solo sin ganker to finish all except for the Guild Lord? That is to say, builds similar to the A/E in intention.

Symbol · Nov 28, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Anyone who can reliably interrupt a .75 sec cast on reaction (i.e actually making sure that the guy is casting BF rather than something else) with an interrupt that has a flight time is godly IMO. I don't think that's realistic and I have fast reflexes.

JR · Nov 28, 2006, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Anyone who can reliably interrupt a .75 sec cast on reaction (i.e actually making sure that the guy is casting BF rather than something else) with an interrupt that has a flight time is godly IMO. I don't think that's realistic and I have fast reflexes.

Right. Fairly close range with a recurve a sharp player will be nailing those 0.75 casts, but mostly due to awareness and watching for the turn or the stop that indicates someone is about to cast - picking and choosing what you interrupt in that circumstance isn't going to be easy.

With Mesmer interrupts I think it's possible to check the skill being used before you hit the button, due to their shorter 'cast' time and lack of flight time.

moriz · Nov 28, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

ranger interrupts are also prone to line of sight problems. a smart flashbot can just hide around a corner and blind you to his heart's content. on some maps, all they really need to do is to stand in a partially obstructed location and still dodge all the interrupts, since there's a strange bug with line of sight and skills. it's really noticeable on the warrior's isle.

Program Ftw · Nov 28, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Anyone who can reliably interrupt a .75 sec cast on reaction (i.e actually making sure that the guy is casting BF rather than something else) with an interrupt that has a flight time is godly IMO. I don't think that's realistic and I have fast reflexes.

I've never had a problem, with interrupting Blinding Flash/Surge or other skills like Eviscerate are fun to interrupt too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

ranger interrupts are also prone to line of sight problems. a smart flashbot can just hide around a corner and blind you to his heart's content. on some maps, all they really need to do is to stand in a partially obstructed location and still dodge all the interrupts, since there's a strange bug with line of sight and skills. it's really noticeable on the warrior's isle.

And a smart ranger will follow the Flashbot around that corner, and block him. If you want to interupt quick spells you need to be close to reduce flight time with the bow. As for dodging arrows, if the ranger has common sense and using a Recurve Bow, it is hard to dodge unless you are at a distance. Also the is a "trick" with the ranger firing a bow which you can use to help hit a target that is strafing at range.

Thanks,
Program~

Silk Weaver · Nov 28, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Surely there still is a (rather large) risk involved? If the flashbot is to use the blind asap, then it's quite moot, as you'll have to interrupt as soon as you you come into range as well. Not sure if that works, even. I'd rather just longbow and then malice it, seems far less risky when the whole game could be affected by it.

With Blinding Surge, one blind means constant blind unless you flee, same with Blinding Flash, really, if they remember to time it right. In fact, if you are that close to the opponent (quoting: "it is hard to dodge unless you are at a distance" which would imply that you are not in optimal distance), wouldn't you be blinded already? If not, what the hell is wrong with that E/Mo? Did she not notice you coming or somehing?

remmeh · Nov 28, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

with regard to bsurge/bflash vs. cripshot in skirmish, it's pretty easy to land a dshot on their first blind (vs dumb players) just by hitting dshot when they get to the edge of your aggro bubble.

Silk Weaver · Nov 28, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmeh

(vs dumb players)

Point made.

Regardless, any gank when hindered by good defense will be weakened. Optimally, the opposing party will be weakened when forced to send player back, however at the same time, builds like the E/Mo with Heal Party, Extinguish, Blind, and Running is built so that it would be effective at dealing with these situation. Depending on player skill and builds, the advantage could be on either side, it depends on too many different variables, and is derserving of a whole (if not several) seperatea discussions.

However, that is getting off topic. Any thoughts on the viability of the sin? Or are they passe now?

Drewfense · Nov 28, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

However, that is getting off topic. Any thoughts on the viability of the sin? Or are they passe now?

I think the assassin primary is very far from a necessity anymore. Shadow of Haste/Dash opens up so many other viable options (and makes an elite useless...). In prior seasons, gank team builds have been about abusing number advantages (see Squidget's post) and the gankers contributing to the main party (see EviL on GWVersus), but I think the situation is very different now. The euroway epidemic is everywhere. Probably one out of four teams during american times (and even more during euro) run caster spike at stand with a two man gank. What is important now is having a gank team that can annihilate the opponents gank squad. This is often rock/paper/scissors, but is still something to strive to succeed at. Really any 2 characters will be able to clear out a base in a reasonable time. Give them a snare and they can pester a flagger. Knowing that, design your gankers to kill gankers, not archers.

Anyways, going back to the original question. I think there are better options than assassin primary. Really the most common reason I see people run assassin primary on a ganker now is for an additional Shadow Prison spiker when at stand.