Curse

TheOneMephisto · Jan 06, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Well....lets see....

ZB
Temple strike
SS and SV
Corrupt enchantment
Remedy weapon
Offensive rit spirits
Blackout
Frag + Virulence

and the list goes on.....

There are many skills that are way overpowered in a 4v4 format because they are designed to be used in a 8v8 format vs 2 monk + support backlines. In 4v4 format yo have 1 monk with support skills on the other 3 teammates.

I 4v4 the same weakness to RaO is still there. Kill the pet and half the pressure is gone.

ZB: Notice I said before. ZB hasn't been through a nerf cycle yet, so you can't tell if they are going to nerf it or not.

Temple Strike: Please, draw conditions/purge sig on an off character.

SS: Umm... no?

SV: See ZB

Corrupt Enchantment: Umm... no? And see ZB (even though it needs a buff to be of any use when stuff like reaper's mark is out there).

Remedy Weapon: Umm... no?

Offensive Rit Spirits: If the other team is an idiot and doesn't know how to interrupt/kill spirits.

Blackout: Everybody switch to defensive mode for a couple sec, okay. Either way, blackout has been nerfed to hell, so how can you say that? Although, I have to say that I enjoyed playing the glyph of energy->gale->blackout->diversion->repeat ultimate monk shutdown before blackout got nerfed for like the 5th time.

Frag + Virulence: Um... not since way-back-when, and frag got a nerf either way. And if you're talking about the hypochondria bug, that was overpowered everywhere, considering that a monk can just go /Me and use one skill slot to do hundreds of damage.

Seems that you need some brushing up on your TA technique. I'd like to see your list of others though.

And killing the pet isn't really that viable. Half the pressure in fact does not come from the pet, most of the pressure is from the hammer + KD. And if you use your melee to kill their pet, that means that you're letting their other 2 characters (probably a bsurge dom mesmer and a reaper's mark necro) roam free all over your team without being forced to kite, which means that your monk is screwed up either way.

Currently, it's basically that you have to use a RaO thumper (or a variant like the spear chucker) because it's such an amazing pressure template, and therefore you have to bring blinding surge because that's the only counter that can really control a RaO thumper. There are a couple other imba options out there (grenth's dervish witht he right support/other melee), but RaO is relatively simple to run, brutally effective, and works pretty well against anything with a draw conditions at his back.

twicky_kid · Jan 06, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

And killing the pet isn't really that viable. Half the pressure in fact does not come from the pet, most of the pressure is from the hammer + KD. And if you use your melee to kill their pet, that means that you're letting their other 2 characters (probably a bsurge dom mesmer and a reaper's mark necro) roam free all over your team without being forced to kite, which means that your monk is screwed up either way.

Killing the pet removes him from dealing dmg, blacks out the thumper, and erases all adreanline. Now he has to stop chasing you and res pet then catch up with you again.

Killing the pet has always been the best counter to thumpers.

My list was not talking about specifically TA only. I said 4v4 format. As already stated skills are balanced on a HA, GvG, and farming basis. I have never seen a skill nerfed because it was imba in 4v4. I dought we ever will.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 06, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Killing the pet removes him from dealing dmg, blacks out the thumper, and erases all adreanline. Now he has to stop chasing you and res pet then catch up with you again.

Killing the pet has always been the best counter to thumpers.

My list was not talking about specifically TA only. I said 4v4 format. As already stated skills are balanced on a HA, GvG, and farming basis. I have never seen a skill nerfed because it was imba in 4v4. I dought we ever will.

Killing the pet was an effective counter to thumpers because they relied on spamming ferocious strike to gain energy to power out attacks. Killing a RaO thumper's pet just means that he has to res his pet every 24 sec, use RaO, let it die again, then have at least a good 15-20 sec to rage all over your team.

Umm... what other 4v4 format is there besides TA? RA is not real PvP, please don't tell me that you're talking about that. HvH doesn't count either because it all relies on exploiting AI.

And as I've said before, we've never seen a skill that has been rediculously overpowered in TA and relatively tame in GvG.

You still haven't managed to list a single skill that has been imba in TA and not imba in other formats that hasn't been nerfed (besides skills that haven't even gotten through a nerf cycle yet). It's always been that skills are either imba in both TA and GvG, imba when multiple copies are used (aka not imba in TA but imba in GvG, or not imba at all. There really hasn't been an example of a skill that is extremely imba in TA yet not in GvG, except perhaps blackout (which, if you'll notice, has been nerfed just about every time a balance update comes out).

Divineshadows · Jan 06, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Killing the pet was an effective counter to thumpers because they relied on spamming ferocious strike to gain energy to power out attacks. Killing a RaO thumper's pet just means that he has to res his pet every 24 sec, use RaO, let it die again, then have at least a good 15-20 sec to rage all over your team.

Umm... what other 4v4 format is there besides TA? RA is not real PvP, please don't tell me that you're talking about that. HvH doesn't count either because it all relies on exploiting AI.

And as I've said before, we've never seen a skill that has been rediculously overpowered in TA and relatively tame in GvG.

You still haven't managed to list a single skill that has been imba in TA and not imba in other formats that hasn't been nerfed (besides skills that haven't even gotten through a nerf cycle yet). It's always been that skills are either imba in both TA and GvG, imba when multiple copies are used (aka not imba in TA but imba in GvG, or not imba at all. There really hasn't been an example of a skill that is extremely imba in TA yet not in GvG, except perhaps blackout (which, if you'll notice, has been nerfed just about every time a balance update comes out).

Agree with Mephisto on this point -- having your melee kill the pets is extremely inefficient. Having your melee spike down a pet can work though. In order for this to happen though, the pet needs to not be above full health due to your team having degen (ala reaper's mark) or aoe (ala spiritual pain, dervish scythe attacks, searing flames, or traps). Don't let their pets linger at less than 50% health for too long though or their monk just heals it for free with ZB. Also, you have to be placing pressure on their team while you get a pet to around 60% health for a spike on it.

DPing out a rampage thumper's pet to 60 DP actually does make the rampage as one guy pretty useless. So twicky_kid is right here. However, it is non-trivial to do and not always possible for the build you are running.

Mephisto -- ZB does not deserve a nerf if they are balancing strictly for GvG purposes. It is, however, overpowered in 4v4 play.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 06, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Mephisto -- ZB does not deserve a nerf if they are balancing strictly for GvG purposes. It is, however, overpowered in 4v4 play.

However, ZB also hasn't been through a nerf cycle yet, so you don't know if they will nerf it for TA reasons only or if they will leave it be since it's perfectly fine in GvG.

Patrograd · Jan 07, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Agree with Mephisto on this point -- having your melee kill the pets is extremely inefficient. .

In GvG pets just die, all the time, without necessarily any kind of focus fire on them. I would guess that when I run a thumper my pet dies probably 10-15 times in an average fight - this means that if RAO ended on pet death the RAO thumper would be unviable for GvG, you'd be better off taking Tigers fury and run as one.

Dragannia · Jan 08, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

In GvG, if your Pet dies your Death Necro has a field day. Hence why sometimes killing pets is not a good idea.

Arshay Duskbrow · Jan 10, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

How about a truce: You can have your SF spammers, your Blinding Surge, Shield of Absorption, I don't mind. Give them a buff if you like. Just leave RaO alone. It doesn't need a nerf. As I said elsewhere,

"Blind, Weakness, sustained energy denial (Spirit Shackles sucks, believe me), hexes, degen..."

Among everything else that was listed here. The RaO thumper is almost total offense with virtually no way to deal with any of these. I can't count the number of times I, as a thumper, have been destroyed, rendered impotent and humiliated by mesmers, hex necros and blind eles. It's an awesome skill and an awesome build, and one of my very favorites in the game, but it is certainly not the unstoppable juggernaut it's being painted as. Let it be.

Sinful Doom · Jan 10, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arshay Duskbrow

How about a truce: You can have your SF spammers, your Blinding Surge, Shield of Absorption, I don't mind. Give them a buff if you like. Just leave RaO alone. It doesn't need a nerf. As I said elsewhere,

"Blind, Weakness, sustained energy denial (Spirit Shackles sucks, believe me), hexes, degen..."

Among everything else that was listed here. The RaO thumper is almost total offense with virtually no way to deal with any of these. I can't count the number of times I, as a thumper, have been destroyed, rendered impotent and humiliated by mesmers, hex necros and blind eles. It's an awesome skill and an awesome build, and one of my very favorites in the game, but it is certainly not the unstoppable juggernaut it's being painted as. Let it be.

Everything you listed stops everything else in the game too. I dont buy these arguments. People arent asking to nerf Hundered Blades,Punishing Shot,Temple Strike,Cruel Spear, etc... etc... You have to look at the skill as it is. Anything that offers not just one target but two a constant speed/ias boost that cant be stripped is imbalanced. No if's, and's or but's about it.

Arshay Duskbrow · Jan 11, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

I guess you missed my point. The RaO build is a very narrow build; other professions and builds might be able to cope with those counters, but a thumper usually can't without outside help. Sure, the SKILL, taken on its own, is unbelievably powerful. But the fact is, the only real way to make good use of it is in a thumping build, which has plenty of drawbacks and limitations to exploit. The answer to IAS is and always has been on-attack hexes, Spiteful Spirit being of course the best example.

As for Punishing Shot, it needs a buff. A big one.

bungusmaximus · Jan 11, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

I tested a few rounds of Team Arena yesterday, a typical place where thumpers are running rampant (literally). I think they are quite a weak class, ok it's good pressure, but pressure is the way to go in TA, so I'm not surprised really. People get the same pressure from hexes or dervishes. MAN if there's anything I'm afraid of it is dervishes, especially when they drive you in a narrow place where there's no room to kite

.

We had a ward/blindbitch in our team, a very general counter that also works well against other chars apart from thumpers. Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption do miracle works against them too. In the end their pets had -60% dp anyway so they died already when you sneezed to loud, leaving the thumper useless.

Maybe I'm a little bit off-logic here because the counters I mentioned above are considered imbalanced as well by some people. Bottom line, I think theyre pretty balanced compared to other classes/skills (the only thing that really sucks about them is the daze, not RaO imo).

Sinful Doom · Jan 11, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arshay Duskbrow

As for Punishing Shot, it needs a buff. A big one.

Just out of curiosity why do you think Punishing Shot needs a buff?

Patccmoi · Jan 11, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

Just out of curiosity why do you think Punishing Shot needs a buff?

I'd say cause it's worse than Savage Shot overall (though Savage Shot is possibly in the top 2 ranger skills along with DShot. I think those 2 are better than any Ranger elite)...

Only reason why people use Punishing Shot is when they do Ranger Spike and they don't have enough rangers to overkill by more than 40-50 damage (which is kinda ridiculous since Ranger Spike usually overkills by tons or fails by a lot depending on counters). If you want an extra interrupt, Magebane is better. If you want a mix of damage and interrupt, Burning Arrows-Savage is better than more or less any shot-Punishing and Savage is a much better interrupt due to recharge.

If you want an interrupt, DShot-Savage is better than DShot-Punishing.

I think that Savage Shot with 8s recharge and Punishing Shot with 5s recharge would be much more balanced personally... but that doesn't have much to do with RaO.

Arshay Duskbrow · Jan 11, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Pretty much correct. Punishing tries to be both a spike damage skill and an interrupt. It was never worth spending your elite solely on the latter, and Burning-Savage (or Burning-Needling-Savage) is better for spiking. Punishing used to be one of my favorite skills, but I never use it anymore.

So Punishing needs increased damage or decreased recharge, or both, if it wants to compete as a serious bow attack elite.

Quote:

Savage Shot with 8s recharge...

If Anet tries that, enraged Rangers from around the world will converge on Bellevue, WA and burn their HQ to the ground. :P

Symbol · Jan 11, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

I guess you missed my point. The RaO build is a very narrow build; other professions and builds might be able to cope with those counters, but a thumper usually can't without outside help. Sure, the SKILL, taken on its own, is unbelievably powerful. But the fact is, the only real way to make good use of it is in a thumping build, which has plenty of drawbacks and limitations to exploit. The answer to IAS is and always has been on-attack hexes, Spiteful Spirit being of course the best example.

Other melee professions are just as vulnerable to the listed counters as a thumper.

twicky_kid · Jan 12, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Other melee professions are just as vulnerable to the listed counters as a thumper.

Not true at all.

Most wars changed to w/mo to carry mending touch countering cripple and blind. You can hex a war but you won't kill him while he's able to use healing sig. Unlike a thumper that will degen out.

Mel's avatars can't be shut down by conditions or hexes. They also have a self healing engine and the best regen skill on the game.

Patccmoi · Jan 12, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Not true at all.

Most wars changed to w/mo to carry mending touch countering cripple and blind. You can hex a war but you won't kill him while he's able to use healing sig. Unlike a thumper that will degen out.

Mel's avatars can't be shut down by conditions or hexes. They also have a self healing engine and the best regen skill on the game.

A Melandru Derv that can handle his own hexes, has good self-heal and big regen is basically the same as a Tactics W/Mo : all defense/self sufficiency and no damn pressure.

I agree that Thumpers are all-out pressure and can't handle things on their own though. Wars and Derv can decide to take care of 1 of those things (conditions, hexes or self-heal) without sacrificing much pressure but Thumpers just don't have any options.

Arshay Duskbrow · Jan 12, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Exactly my point.

Bankai · Jan 12, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

A Melandru Derv that can handle his own hexes, has good self-heal and big regen is basically the same as a Tactics W/Mo : all defense/self sufficiency and no damn pressure.

I agree that Thumpers are all-out pressure and can't handle things on their own though. Wars and Derv can decide to take care of 1 of those things (conditions, hexes or self-heal) without sacrificing much pressure but Thumpers just don't have any options.

I don't agree, since normal attacks and 1 attack skill like wearying strike are all you need for pressure on a dervish.

crucifix · Jan 16, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

I don't agree, since normal attacks and 1 attack skill like wearying strike are all you need for pressure on a dervish.

2 attack skills actually, wearying and eremites/mystic. none the less, back to RaO.

RaO IMO is fine where it is. TF was the best thump tool EVER because it allowed you to carry an elite hammy attack, pretty much turning thumps into BB spammers and whatnot. the sacrifice of an elite slot with high energy is a fine balance as far s aim concerned.

if RaO gets nerfed, I want TF/BF back.