Curse

necrosfeelyaks · Dec 30, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

No thread on this has been started yet, but has been talked about

Ill go ahead and say what I think about the skill, and what it should be changed to:

Duration: keep it the same
Energy: If nerfed to heavily, this would need to come down, but were not planning on donig that are we?

This skill, is simply put a "skill". Put it to stance?, isnt run as one a stance?

kvndoom · Dec 30, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

All they really need for RaO is to make it a stance so it can't be comboed with Whirling. The steep energy requirement keeps anyone but a Ranger primary from using it. And it's only used for melee Rangers, which have a trillion counters now as it is.

Well, and making it end when the pet dies will probably happen too, but I have mixed feelings about that.

JR · Dec 30, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

All they really need for RaO is to make it a stance so it can't be comboed with Whirling.

Competitive RaO Thumper builds do not use Whirling Defense.

Changing it to a stance would either destroy it as a skill (have your Dervish Wild Blow them every time they put it up), or would require a complete rework of cost/duration.

Simply: Have it end when your pet dies.

necrosfeelyaks · Dec 30, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

yeah, ending when your pet dies would be a nice change to. I have seen peeps use this for R/P also doom, not in competitive GvG lol, but I still see it frequently in scrub arenas. And I agree with JR, where have u seen RaO with Whirling Defense? lol thats just funny

kvndoom · Dec 30, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

I've seen it a few times in Obs Mode, actually, couldn't tell you whom because I wasn't taking notes.

Kinda weird to see RaO emerge after TF got nerfed though, since it's even better for thumpers than the old build was. Good way to sell a new campaign, I gather...

gasmaskman · Dec 30, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

I've seen it a few times in Obs Mode, actually, couldn't tell you whom because I wasn't taking notes.

Kinda weird to see RaO emerge after TF got nerfed though, since it's even better for thumpers than the old build was. Good way to sell a new campaign, I gather...

Maybe they nerfed TF because of IWAY?

Jeff Highwind · Dec 30, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

After personally using RaO, It's pretty balanced IMO because in AB when opponents see a fast-moving ranger with his black chocobo they instinctively know to kill the chocobo first to reduce pressure exponentially.

Plus as a poster stated before, it's high energy requirement pretty much limits it to the ranger class and their weak 70al armor.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 30, 2006, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Reduce the attack speed buff to 25%, at the very least. I'm not a big fan of this template because it promotes really mindless one-dimensional pressure builds. However, it's really not that overpowered compared to something like an Avatar of Grenth dervish.

Orphan Anthem · Dec 30, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

I personally think the best possable nerf for RoA would be duration. if it only lasted 15 seconds at 10 beast maybe 20 seconds at 15 beast that would be a decient balance i think. Also energy wise the 25 energy cost is easy to handle with 10 expert it comes 15. Now if it were 20-25 after expert it would have more strain on it. The idea of it ending on a pets death would competly KILL it and i dont think that is called for

gasmaskman · Dec 30, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Now if it were 20-25 after expert it would have more strain on it.

Yeah - strain enough to remove it from every thumpers bar.

Having it end when your pet dies is fine, anyways.

Patccmoi · Dec 30, 2006, 11:00 AM // 11:00

End on pet death would mean that you absolutely need Death Necro along to take advantage of the corpses cause otherwise pets will just get killed repeatedly. DPed pets die to any kind of AOE, even just like a Derv hitting the thumper. It's a possible fix though.

I'd really see a duration reduction as best fix too personally. Before release in beta it was something like 5..13..16 duration with 20s recharge. I was already thinking 'wow, this skill is awesome'. Then at release it got buffed and i was like 'wtf, they really want Thumpers THAT good?'.

I don't see why RaO is a skill that should be possible to keep up permanently. Its effect is stronger than any kind of stance without being one, and i don't think it absolutely needs to be a stance, not if duration is lowered. As other said, Dervish with Wild Blow would make it way too weak.

Make it back to 5..13..16 with 20s recharge and leave the rest as is. The effect is really strong enough to make the skill viable even if it ends sometimes. You'd likely have it up more often than if you put the 'end if pet dies' clause.

Patrograd · Dec 30, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

I think that the problem with JR's solution is that once the pet has DP it dies all the bloody time, every few seconds in a typical battle. If RAO ended when the pet died you'd take it out of the game, as you'd spend most of the game without it. IMO TF would be a stronger skill, and TF isnt strong enough for competitive play.

I think reducing it to 25% increase in attack speed is about as heavy a nerf as you can give it without losing the skill altogether, and even then, you'd likely force the pressure melee template further into dervishes.

It has to be remembered that even with significant expertise investment this skill costs 13 energy. once you have heavy DP, or are under any kind of edenial, you basically have to choose between using this or the other skills on your bar.

I would say that this skill is really borderline, I can sort of see the argument for nerfing it, but I dont know how you could nerf it without killing the template altogether

Saphatorael · Dec 30, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

It has to be remembered that even with significant expertise investment this skill costs 13 energy. once you have heavy DP, or are under any kind of edenial, you basically have to choose between using this or the other skills on your bar.

Just pack a staff and wield it to activate the skill?

As for my way for nerfing it. Increase the recharge? To 30 seconds or something. They won't be able to stay in it the whole time, which will remove quite alot of pressure after the initial 20 seconds. It won't hurt Ranger's energy management either.

Try comparing RaO to an Avatar Form. It may sound weird, but it's actually quite similar, except for the changing. It's a SKILL, so it can't be removed. It gives significant bonusses. (Attack and Speed buff).
The main difference is the recharge. A Dervish can't stay in Avatar Form perpetually (Melandru Dervishes deal quite a bit less damage since Chilling Victory is harder to get the damage bonus from). A RaO Ranger just has to reactivate it every 20 seconds, on estimate.
Yes, I'm ignoring the fact that the attributes are quite different (Mysticism is a primary attrib, BM is an underrated attrib, except when thumping), but fact is, it's some kind of pure combat 'form', for Rangers, which kicks the crap out of any avatar (overrated stuff imo, but still useful at times).

Another difference between Forms and RaO is the wielded weapon. But Scythes can't KD, and they don't have pets that can daze.

Kratos Angel · Dec 30, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Humm the 2 main ideas for this skills are :
* Put it to a stance
* Ends when pet dies

Personally, in order not to disturb too much the skill (stance would be always removed with a grenth dervish, using wild blow, and so this skill would be useless) the thing ends when your pet dies roxx. It's a really good idea as pets now got dp, /signed

Patrograd · Dec 30, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Just pack a staff and wield it to activate the skill?

Last time I checked, Irresistible blow, crushing blow and bulls strike were actually quite poor when used with a staff

Skuld · Dec 30, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

switch to a zealous hammer after lol

Saphatorael · Dec 30, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Last time I checked, Irresistible blow, crushing blow and bulls strike were actually quite poor when used with a staff

... I hope you are just very, VERY tired to be thinking clearly.

If you're DP'ed, your max energy drops. Let's say you just have enough DP to not have enough energy to reactivate RaO the normal way. Pack a staff to up your energy, activate it, then switch back to your hammer.
Negative energy in the start, but if you're wielding a zealous hammer (which you should), you'll get enough energy to activate your attack skills again.

But indeed, you have a point that they are poor when wielding a staff

twicky_kid · Dec 31, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kratos Angel

Humm the 2 main ideas for this skills are :
* Put it to a stance
* Ends when pet dies

Either one of these will kill the skill. You'd just kill the pet. RoA would end and thumper is blacked out. Now the pet has dp and is easier to kill next time. Rinse and repeat.

Why would I run something that would give my foe the opportunity to shut me down forever?

Lets not even mention VoD. Pets don't even last 2s at VoD. Combine that with rangers lower armor vs physical and you have a very losing combination.

I don't really see a problem with thumpers. SF is what is outputting all the dmg in the build. The thumpers are just there to KD monks to slow the healing. SoA will prevent a thumper from ever being a real threat.

bungusmaximus · Jan 02, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

True, their attack speed is still quite slow because they are wielding a hammer. Being a monk myself i'd rather deal with a thumper then with an assassin or warrior. A blind thumper is as harmless as a baby, and if u kill their pet maybe rampage is still on, but the KD is eliminated. When i monk in alliance battle i always use siphon speed on thumpers, and suddenly I'm faster then the thumper. always makes me LOL.
I fully understand that GW should be properly balanced, but the amount of threads i see in the skill discussion crying out for nerfs is partially true and partially based on unwillingness to adapt imo. Let's hope the solution will be somewhere inbetween those two. Theyre even asking to nerf shield of absorption while there are so many classes being able to remove enchants without too much trouble.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 02, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

IMO they should make it cost 15 energy and make the duration scale up to 10 sec at 14 BM. That would allow most thumpers to keep it up 50% of the time, keeping the ability to pressure quite a bit with it. However, the pressure would be reduced, but at the same time thumpers would have a bit more energy to play with other attacks.