Curse

ayame ftw · Jan 10, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

Do you honestly believe that being able to fit two, maybe even three more non-elite hex removals would counteract adding another hexer with infinite energy? It's not even going to come close.

Well than the answer is realy easy no?
dont bring all hex removal in the game..
but shutdown the energy supply... rather obvious no?

Apok Omen · Jan 10, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Khift makes a strong point.

Even if 8v8 is brought back to HA, more problems will arise. Many are hiding behind the curtain called ''blame it on 6v6''. GvG has the exact same problems. And dont give anyone that ''GvG and HA are not at all the same''. That is completely wrong. If anything, they are the same in terms of tactics.

Yes, bringing back 8v8 HA would persuade old players to come back, but believe me; problems will not easily go away. Some might think that 8v8 will allow more counters. Guess what? The gimmicks will counter your counters by putting something else into the mix. 8v8 would actually make matters worse.

And Anet is taking the smart line of thinking: going to the mechanics. They know that there will be even more complaints once 8v8 comes back, so they go for what ticks off everyone: the way people win and lose. Forever since HA was introduced, no one was satified by how things worked out in UW, SE, etc. By attacking the mechanics, they can improve on how people win and lose.

If they simply went back to 8v8, then it would show how weak and lazy they are. Anet is not threatened by the protesters in HA and the many ''bring back 8v8'' names/guilds. If anything, they ignore them and go to where the experienced and intellegent discuss arguements.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 10, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

I love how every pro-8v8 argument highlights problems with halls that aren't going to go away even if you go back to 8v8.

"8v8 didn't have extremely defensive builds."
8v8 didn't have access to Paragons. Give 8v8 Paragons, and guess what, you get extremely defensive builds that take forever to kill.

"8v8 didn't have people holding forever."
Really, now. Holding forever has been a problem in halls since release. It's not gonna stop by going back to 8v8.

"6v6 doesn't have enough skill slots to cover the multiple map objectives -- 8v8 did."
So its 6v6's fault that HA has ancient and outdated maps that has too many unhealthy win conditions with retarded NPCs deciding who wins or loses? Changing it to 8v8 is just a bandaid fix, where the real problem is terrible maps which -- guess what -- were slowly killing HA in the first place and was what caused the 6v6 change to go through in the first place.

"6v6 doesn't have enough skill slots to counter gimmick builds while 8v8 does."
Go take a look at GvG. GvG has 8 character slots and the same problem. Bringing just a skill or two to counter something no longer works. The game has evolved, and builds that are easily countered by one or two skills have all but disappeared as a process of natural selection. Only the builds most resistant to hate have survived -- and now, to hate a build out you need to dedicate almost your entire team to it, just like you do in 6v6. This isn't a problem with 6v6, this is a problem with Guild Wars as a whole.

The only "argument" I've seen for 8v8 is whining and nostalgia. People keep deluding themselves that if we go back to 8v8 it'll be just like 'old times' and will be just as awesome as it was then. It won't be. If we go back to 8v8, we'll see builds with W/A Me/E Me/E P/x P/x Mo/E Mo/E Mo/E that'll take twice as long to kill as the current super defensive builds we have and simultaneously have a stronger spike which thus means you'll see them get to halls more often. We'll see builds with 6-7x SF eles that are just as skill-less as the crap currently in 6v6. We'll see Signet of Mystic Wrath spike expanded to have 8 monks and every bond the game has ever seen -- and you think it takes forever to kill now wait til you see it then! Neo-IWAY will expand to 4 W/x 3 P/x 1 N/Mo and become even stronger. Jagged Bones will fit in a third healer and a third hexer. Believe it or not people more character slots means stronger gimmicks as you have a greater amount of room to create synergy within your build and amplify yourself compared to a normal balanced build. I hear you yelling, "BUT THEN WHY DOES 6V6 HAVE MORE GIMMICKS THAN 8V8?!?" Because of Nightfall. The more strong skills you put into the game the stronger gimmicks become, and Nightfall nearly doubled the game's amount of powerful skills and the end result is gimmicks everywhere getting stronger, and if you think 6v6 had nasty gimmicks you're in for a world of hurt if 8v8 comes around again.

6v6 has just become a scapegoat the HA community has blamed for the problems brought on by Nightfall and the massive power boost given to every build. Heading back to 8v8 isn't gonna get rid of these problems. Let me emphasize that, HEADING BACK TO 8V8 ISN'T GONNA GET RID OF THESE PROBLEMS. All it will do is emphasize them more.

You know exactly what you're talking about - no sarcasm.
People seem to think that 8v8 is going to bring back the "Ranked balance > Vimway = Fame" scenario.. so to speak. Which brings me to another point. Back at the vimway times, you'd get a blackout warrior on your RC monk. Diversion on the Blackout warrior and it's game. So it was rather easy to get fame. Whether you made it to Halls, or held, you still had a nice 10 fame to part tombs with (which was from rolling the vimway/iway builds on maps leading up to the hoh). That just wont happen anymore. Sure "zergway" is gimmicky, but it sure is balanced. People think that 6v6 has ruined fame, but it really hasn't. As Khift said, NF has introduced MANY powerful skills into the meta.

I'm only rank 6 so I might not be the expert on the matter. I still enjoy tombs and I am for the 8v8 change. However, I'm not oblivious to the fact that extremely overpowered builds are set to dominate come 8v8. Well, thats my thought on the matter. Nice discussion going on here.

Thanks
~Rhanoct

Khift · Jan 10, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epic Monkey Battle

How doesn't the skill balance affect the character limit? By having skills that are balanced means that you can bring 1 or 2 skills to counter it, it wouldn't be like how you claim that you need a whole team build now to counter it. Maybe when the skills are balanced you can effectively run a build that resembles balanced in both 6v6 and 8v8. And in 8v8 you could bring more utility to counter other FoTM.

The problem here is just that there are too many ifs to really base a conversation or a bet on it. At the moment we don't even know what the skill balances are, let alone how they could affect the format or whether they could create or highlight further imbalances that could point to either 6v6 or 8v8. Sure, it's possible that they could get everything right this next patch and things could end up like you say, but while I have faith in Izzy to do his job well he's still only human and the balance problems in the game at the moment are way more complex than most people even begin to realize and just the possibility of us returning to a state like that seems like a far away fairy tale that at best is several balance patches away.

B Ephekt · Jan 10, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Oh, and what awesome 1s cast hex removal are you gonna be slapping on your two extra characters (that will make everything better, instantly) that will fix the problem with the JB hex build? A Divert? They'll bring 2 more hexers, you fail. See, your logic is kinda flawed, mainly because you're in a box that has the inside filled with '8V8 OWNS 6V6' and can not think outside the box. As it is now, 8v8 won't fix ****. Make HA 7v7 and make everyone shut the hell up already, they both have pros and cons, can't you folks (who are supposed to be 13+, which I doubt many of the people who posted in this thread are) agree to disagree? Christ.

If you'd have bothered to read my post you'd realized I mentioned Divert, which is humility fodder vs. that build. In 8v8 you could have a dedicated interrupter without hurting your offense or defense, and would have the option for each monk to bring a Veil, as well as being able to fit in a copy of inspired, purge sig or convert.

Logic? Was it applied to your reply before you decided that an additional monk and offensive/utility character would be unable to handle the hexes the addition of a single offensive character could dish out? For clarification, I'm in no way saying that 8v8 would magically make hex builds disappear; I'm saying that the added utility would afford the option of countering a given build without specifically build against it. Your average balanced build could shut down enough hexes to negate a lot of the danger.

And since you didn't separate the age comment from your reply I'll assume it was direct at least partially at me. If you must know, I'm 27, and quite content to respect other player's dissenting opinions. However, when I see a post I find to be poorly thought out or silly, I have no qualms pointing it out sarcastically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

This comment doesn't even make sense. Let me illustrate something to you:

1. HA was 8v8.
2. Nightfall was released and HA was changed to 6v6.
3. People blamed 6v6 for damaging the metagame.

Are you trying to tell me that people were blaming 6v6 for the damage to the metagame before it was even made 6v6? That people were screaming and crying about how everything was too defensive in 6v6 during the preview event? Because that's not what I heard or experienced, in fact it was the exact opposite -- everything was aggressive and fast paced.

You do realize that HA was changed to 6v6 BEFORE Nightfall was released, right? And people said from day 1 that 6v6 was too limiting and generally not much fun. Nightfall came out and make it worse, but the damage was already done.

Quote:

Do you honestly believe that being able to fit two, maybe even three more non-elite hex removals would counteract adding another hexer with infinite energy? It's not even going to come close.

When you consider that the hexer will likely have at most 3-4 hexes on his bar, then yes, the additional hex removal capabilities would balance it out. Especially when you consider the option of sitting a PD mesmer or CG ranger on the necros standing around in that spirit forest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

Of course I am. It has absolutely nothing to do with 6v6 vs 8v8. It's a completely irrelevant tangential topic that has nothing in common with a conversation of the merits (or lack thereof) of raising the character limit in HA.

You're basing your argument on the strength of the Nightfall skills, so it should be quite obvious that skill balance does effect how much stronger the meta could possibly get. Considering balanced skills, 8v8 should logically provide a team with the ability to counter a given FoTM without having to build specifically against it, which is something you simply can't do in 6v6.

Khift · Jan 10, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

You do realize that HA was changed to 6v6 BEFORE Nightfall was released, right? And people said from day 1 that 6v6 was too limiting and generally not much fun. Nightfall came out and make it worse, but the damage was already done.

And yet until NF came out the pro-8v8 group was only a handful of whiners. It wasn't until some time after NF that the pro-8v8 group started to become this humongous majority of players looking for an easy solution that they understand.

Also, the 'too limiting' aspect of 6v6 is a direct result of bad maps with too many aberrant win conditions. This has always been HA's largest problem by far and 6v6 simply amplified it -- and thank god for that, as it has now caught the dev's attention front and center and hopefully will be fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

When you consider that the hexer will likely have at most 3-4 hexes on his bar, then yes, the additional hex removal capabilities would balance it out. Especially when you consider the option of sitting a PD mesmer or CG ranger on the necros standing around in that spirit forest.

You seem to be forgetting that not only do you have more space to counter them, they have more space to counter your counter as well. Trust me, a single CG interrupter isn't going to be effective at all when he's hex stacked to hell with faint, reckless, spirit, price and shadow of fear all at the same time. And that PD? Humility fodder -- unless you also happen to have a Divert. Or maybe they'll take two humilities, when teams start bringing two elites dedicated to beating them?

Also, take "3-4 hexes" and increase it to "5-7 hexes spammed on recharge while under QZ". These characters don't need energy management. The only time they would ever bring a non hex skill is if it helps their team pump out more hexes -- like MoI/Humility would -- and that's just about the same as bringing 7 hexes, wouldn't you say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

You're basing your argument on the strength of the Nightfall skills, so it should be quite obvious that skill balance does effect how much stronger the meta could possibly get. Considering balanced skills, 8v8 should logically provide a team with the ability to counter a given FoTM without having to build specifically against it, which is something you simply can't do in 6v6.

Who says you 'simply can't do' that in 6v6? Yeah, 6v6 has fewer extra slots for soft counters, but guess what, 6v6 also has a greatly diminished capacity for gimmicks. In 8v8, while you have more slots to devote to soft counters, you also have a just as large increase (if not greater) in gimmicks to defend against, and guess what you're in the same situation all over again. Once the maps are rebalanced it just becomes a matter of proportions.

phasola · Jan 10, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

And yet until NF came out the pro-8v8 group was only a handful of whiners. It wasn't until some time after NF that the pro-8v8 group started to become this humongous majority of players looking for an easy solution that they understand.

WTF are you talking about ? Everyone i know hated the change. Too bad we couldn't do shit to stop it.
I agree bringing back 8v8 won't solve all the problems but at least it's a step in the right direction...

Kabale · Jan 10, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

All this talk about the JB build is making me sick. If you're so incompetent that you can't shut down a guy spamming Humility every 10-15 seconds you deserve to lose.

I'm not denying that the POSSIBLE 8-man version of JB could cause a problem, I believe it will probably determine to an extent the metagame that would be run in the first few weeks, but come on, 3 monk backline with 2 healers and a prot monk with divert?

All this talk about 8vs8 bringing gimmicks, of course it will. You can't say there's a single gametype in GW that doesn't have a 'gimmick'. You just need to be smart enough with your build/skill choice (and have good players) to deal with what the majority of people are running, as you will undoubtedly have done in other areas of GW, and the beauty of 8vs8 is that you still have enough skills on your bar to do what YOU want to do in terms of pressure/spike/whatever without having to sit there like a gimp because you didn't have enough space to counter insert skill here.

Also bare in mind monks got a boost too so they'll be able to deal with these new 'uber' skills NF brought.

Lord Mendes · Jan 10, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

[01:33] <[lvl200InternetPirate]Tiyuri> Hey Izzy, personal preference, which do you ENJOY playing more, 8v8 or 6v6 HA?
[01:33] <[Fi]Izzy|Work> 8v8
[01:34] <[Fi]Izzy|Work> 6v6 lacks the combo of offensse and defense and it's that fine balance that makes the combat fun IMO

Yeah, 6v6 is much more balanced, only fame farming noobs like 8v8.
Izzy = Isaiah Cartwright, head skill and PvP balancer for guildwars PvP. He probably has no idea what he is talking about right?

God Apprentice · Jan 10, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

And yet until NF came out the pro-8v8 group was only a handful of whiners. It wasn't until some time after NF that the pro-8v8 group started to become this humongous majority of players looking for an easy solution that they understand.

No what we don't understand is why the switch was made in the first place

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

Who says you 'simply can't do' that in 6v6? Yeah, 6v6 has fewer extra slots for soft counters, but guess what, 6v6 also has a greatly diminished capacity for gimmicks. In 8v8, while you have more slots to devote to soft counters, you also have a just as large increase (if not greater) in gimmicks to defend against, and guess what you're in the same situation all over again. Once the maps are rebalanced it just becomes a matter of proportions.

Not true, there are still gimmicks in 6v6 and there is no real balanced team per se. Also you kinda have to skimp on some things with less skill slots, meaning some maps (like a altar cap) may not be your builds strong point

Bastian · Jan 10, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

GvG has the exact same problems. And dont give anyone that ''GvG and HA are not at all the same''. That is completely wrong. If anything, they are the same in terms of tactics.

Have you played any HA or GvG? Honestly? The two are completely different in terms of tactics. Unsless, of course, the only tactics you know is to run up to the flag stand and smash buttons and try to kill people. HA doesn't have a need to deal with split builds, flag runners, VOD, etc... Please, think before posting.

Quote:

Yes, bringing back 8v8 HA would persuade old players to come back, but believe me; problems will not easily go away. Some might think that 8v8 will allow more counters. Guess what? The gimmicks will counter your counters by putting something else into the mix. 8v8 would actually make matters worse.

No, wrong again. Actually, you are partly correct that the gimmick builds will bring counters to the counters. (And this is not by bringing hex removal for hex builds - that is the lamest counter I can think of in terms of showing how one would counter that build.) The point here, however, is that this never ending evolution of build and counter build AKA the metagame - does not grow as stale as quick and creates a much better atmosphere in HA. Of course, provided that skill balancing takes place when needed.

Quote:

And Anet is taking the smart line of thinking: going to the mechanics. They know that there will be even more complaints once 8v8 comes back, so they go for what ticks off everyone: the way people win and lose. Forever since HA was introduced, no one was satified by how things worked out in UW, SE, etc. By attacking the mechanics, they can improve on how people win and lose.

If they simply went back to 8v8, then it would show how weak and lazy they are. Anet is not threatened by the protesters in HA and the many ''bring back 8v8'' names/guilds. If anything, they ignore them and go to where the experienced and intellegent discuss arguements.

They should not be threatened by the protesters. However, they should bring 8v8 back because it is the best move to make. There are reasons that good guilds can beat pretty much any FoTM or gimmick build in 8v8 with balanced - its because they are good and those builds are beatable. However, they are also relying on skill and not necessarily just their builds to do that. That is why 6v6 is not a good format - because build>skill in 6v6 whereas in 8v8 skill>build. True - game mechanics should change - and will, however, the problems with 6v6 far outweigh the problems with 8v8.

B Ephekt · Jan 10, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

And yet until NF came out the pro-8v8 group was only a handful of whiners. It wasn't until some time after NF that the pro-8v8 group started to become this humongous majority of players looking for an easy solution that they understand.

Yeah I'm pretty sure you're just making things up here to save face after not realizing that the change was before Nightfall. Most of the decent players I know quit or moved on to GvG between the 6v6 change and Nightfall coming out. This forum, as well as many others, had several threads (I remember at least two 10 page+ threads on this forum alone) about the change. I have no doubt that the 6v6 'movement' has picked up some proponents on the way, but I haven't really seen any reason to believe that the supporters are, as you imply, "too stupid to realize Nightfall made 6v6 seem bad."

Quote:

Who says you 'simply can't do' that in 6v6? Yeah, 6v6 has fewer extra slots for soft counters, but guess what, 6v6 also has a greatly diminished capacity for gimmicks.

I guess this is why every single build being run in 6v6 currently is a gimmick, right?

Quote:

In 8v8, while you have more slots to devote to soft counters, you also have a just as large increase (if not greater) in gimmicks to defend against, and guess what you're in the same situation all over again.

In 8v8 you had to consider how you'd deal with hexes, conditions, spikes and melee pressure builds. Against overload builds in any of these categories, you obviously wouldn't be built against them but the party size gave you the ability to be able to counter them enough to be effective without hurting the overall focus of your build. In 6v6 when you face an overload build you have a higher chance of losing to it, regardless of player skill, if you lack counters to that damage type.

Quote:

Once the maps are rebalanced it just becomes a matter of proportions.

If you consider a 6v6 HA with 'rebalanced' mechanics and win conditions and an 8v8 HA with 'rebalanced' mechanics and win conditions, 8v8 would always provide more leeway in the way of utility. IMO, that's the point 8v8 supporters are making. Why redo HA with 6v6 in mind when you could just revert it to 8v8 and balance it with that in mind, while giving us our arena back? Everything that comes out of your keyboard seems to be ignoring the idea that 8v8 HA would be rebalanced as well.

Quote:

All this talk about the JB build is making me sick. If you're so incompetent that you can't shut down a guy spamming Humility every 10-15 seconds you deserve to lose.

I'm not denying that the POSSIBLE 8-man version of JB could cause a problem, I believe it will probably determine to an extent the metagame that would be run in the first few weeks, but come on, 3 monk backline with 2 healers and a prot monk with divert?

All this talk about 8vs8 bringing gimmicks, of course it will. You can't say there's a single gametype in GW that doesn't have a 'gimmick'. You just need to be smart enough with your build/skill choice (and have good players) to deal with what the majority of people are running, as you will undoubtedly have done in other areas of GW, and the beauty of 8vs8 is that you still have enough skills on your bar to do what YOU want to do in terms of pressure/spike/whatever without having to sit there like a gimp because you didn't have enough space to counter insert skill here.

Jagged Bones was originally brought up as an example due to being the hated build of the moment. I agree with you completely though.

Cass · Jan 10, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I would just like to add that the reversal to 8v8 is NOT something that is brought about because people look back through "rosy glass".

There is a huge difference between the old situation when people were complaining about FotM builds and problems with HA AND YET PLAYING HA EVERY DAY, and 80% of my guild and friends list completely leaving HA/the game when 6v6 arrived.
The move to 6v6 was absolutely gutting, and the problems in the metagame due to wild growth of skills and classes are of an entirely different order.

Thom · Jan 10, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

HA was dying before the 6v6 change. 6v6 was an attempt to make HA more accessable. None of this worked because party size was never the problem. The problem was altar maps and zero objective maps which benefit holding and overload tactics (including spikes). GvG doesn't suffer from this because VoD kills holding tactics and splitting can normally kill overloads.

If HA includes 1/3 split maps, 1/3 annialation maps and 1/3 holding maps, I think the balance would work better. Split maps would require multiple control points not unlike relic runs. Further more the altar claiming should all be done with either flags or faction style claims. If players had to be equally prepared for all three game types, than things would be more interesting. If HoH rotated its game type, much of the holding issues would be gone.

Morgoth the dark · Jan 10, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Yeah, 6v6 is much more balanced, only fame farming noobs like 8v8.
Izzy = Isaiah Cartwright, head skill and PvP balancer for guildwars PvP. He probably has no idea what he is talking about right?

you missed the point. It's his personal prefference and not works good for everyone.
so what id lead designer likes more 8v8 than 6v6?
play gvg lol.

Nadia Roark · Jan 10, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

...Further more the altar claiming should all be done with either flags or faction style claims...

HELL NO. AB style or flag altar capping is about the worst possible change to HA that I can imagine.

Thom · Jan 10, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Nadia, justify you're point.

Having designated interrupters simply interrupting an NPC is neither fun nor skillful. Pouring damage/heals on a non-mitigating NPC is neither fun nor skillful. If I wanted to fight NPCs I'd go PvE.

B Ephekt · Jan 10, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

6v6 was an attempt to make HA more accessable. None of this worked because party size was never the problem.

Someone finally gets it.

At this point I just can't comprehend why we're getting stuck with a poorly thought change to party size when new mechanics is all HA ever needed.

Quote:

GvG doesn't suffer from this because VoD kills holding tactics and splitting can normally kill overloads.

Off topic... but spikes are generally pretty strong come VoD, provided you're not at a complete NPC disadvantage.

Nadia Roark · Jan 10, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

AB style altar capping will severely reduce or eliminate the need for monks in HA (or at the very least, on those maps). As a monk who likes to HA I have a problem with this. Furthermore, it will force teams to ball up on the altar, which would make skills like Spiteful Spirit, Sandstorm, and smites more powerful not on their virtues as skills but as a function of the required capping tactics. If they change it to AB-style altar capping I don't see why it would be worth it to run anything other than ele ball.

Also, saying that you're "fighting NPCs" is an exasperating oversimplification. The current capping meta is just fine; sure you can't interrupt a capping ghost if he's got SoC and Stability on him, but you can take down their backline and pimp-slap their ghost if he does. I can't speak to your preferences of course (which means I can't really challenge what's "fun" for you and what isn't) but the notion that it doesn't take any skill to interrupt a ghost is a laughable one. It's one thing to pop off a gale or a leech sig or whatever; it's something entirely different for the team (and especially the monks) to react to the pressure in such a way as to keep their interrupter alive. Skill is not a nonfactor.

Franco Power · Jan 10, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

You can interrupt a ghostly, if your interrupter knows what hes doing he will search for the /P and interrupt song or atleast try before the altar is capped.

Its lack of skill like this that makes Song so abused.