Curse

tomcruisejr · Jan 12, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Not necessarily. However, a good team (skill wise) running a balanced build (with some thought as to the metagame) is almost always going to be overpowered compared to the overpowered FoTM's if the skills are balanced . The reason for this is simple. Balanced builds draw upon many different skill uses and game mechanics. Whereas, FoTM's generally load up on one type of game mechanic. For example - IWAY is a melee heavy pressure build. It used to rely on high dmg through order of pain (or apostacy or both) - eviscerate, eoe, frozen soil, and a trapper for keeping the orders safe or using the aoe dmg from traps to keep people out of wards. If you knew this - you knew how to counter it, and you cuold effectively beat Iway the same way. Bloodspike relies on spirits for energy and lifestealing damage to go through prot skills. Countering bspike is not about infusing (although maybe a little), its about tactics, interrupts, and shutting down the necros or more importantly the caller. These types of skills load up on one type of game mechanic to make them extremely overpowered - especially for newer teams. Also, it makes them easy to run for people trying to get into HA. (And I would also say a good building block for those people trying to get into HA - as long as they don't rely on one build for r0 to r9+, but for them to learn how to play those builds so hey understand what shuts those builds down).

However, a balanced build - what does it rely on? Skill. There is nothing overpowered as far as game mechanics in a balanced build - that is why it is balanced. It may run a sort of adrenaline spike or pressure - or some type of offense. But there are many outlets for it to be both a defensive and offensive threat. As well as shutting down the game mechanics for other groups. That is why if the skills are balanced in the game - a good balanced team has a very good chance vs. anyone.

I hope this makes sense and answers the question.

yep thanks for giving me a sensible reply. so what makes a non balanced build overpowered then and why are people crying foul when a team build sacrifices its utility and put the extra to damage or defense?

see the logic here. say both got 8 players each and both can play almost the same build. team A got 6 players and 2 utility players. and team b got the same setup. but if team b decides to convert just their 2 utility players to damage dealers, does it make team b imbalanced? and what if say team a complained so the damage of team b is adjusted and will only have overall damage output comparable to team a? does it mean you just weaken team b and gave team A the advantage of 2 utility char?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y O U Lo Se

I think you don't understand what he says?

He's saying that utility characters will make skill > build instead of rock paper scissors as it is now...

ok thanks for that clear reply

utility will make skill > build instead of rock paper scissors. wow, i learned something from you.

but seriously, do you think that player skill only shines if you have a lack of something in your skill bar? say if you lack decent defense, you must be careful of your hp and at the same time you must take down the threats to your team or say you don't have wards, you must know how to pull, kite, bodyblock etc. or the splits if you're facing spikes.

see, there are somethings that aren't found in your skill bar you know. skill is not just using the skill bar accordingly. well it is but even a monkey can press a keyboard or use the mouse.

Bastian · Jan 12, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

yep thanks for giving me a sensible reply. so what makes a non balanced build overpowered then and why are people crying foul when a team build sacrifices its utility and put the extra to damage or defense?

see the logic here. say both got 8 players each and both can play almost the same build. team A got 6 players and 2 utility players. and team b got the same setup. but if team b decides to convert just their 2 utility players to damage dealers, does it make team b imbalanced? and what if say team a complained so the damage of team b is adjusted and will only have overall damage output comparable to team a? does it mean you just weaken team b and gave team A the advantage of 2 utility char?

Thats exactly what IWAY does - and that is why it absolutely rolls a lot of teams in HA. Because the damage output is so incredibly high. The drawback to IWAY, as I am sure that you can attest to, is that when you go up against certain builds (I think a good BSpike usually poses a problem for IWAY), as well as better balanced teams - you usually don't win. That is even considering that you are playing as a highly competetive and experienced IWAY team. I see no problem in doing this - however, now you have limited yourself in regards to certain types of teams. Additionally, (especially with the eoe nerf), you lose a lot of holding power in HOH.

I don't think team b should be weakened - as long as the skills are all fairly balanced. As a team you decided to put everything into the offense of your team - therefore you should have higher damage output. However, a good balanced will be able to mitigate this damage to themselves by shutting down the correct individuals. This becomes even easier if the build, such as IWAY, is a heavily run build in HA, because the opposing team should know how to shut it down.

What I like about 8v8 in this case is that both IWAY and balanced teams kept changing their builds in order to counter the other. How many times did the resolve trapper become an ele, become a mesmer, become an apostacy necro. That is why 8v8 is good - because you still have a creative metagame based on the ability to counter and then counter the counter.

I see no problem in running FoTM's - I do see a problem in not having the resources available to counter them - should they be run by other teams.

tomcruisejr · Jan 12, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Thats exactly what IWAY does - and that is why it absolutely rolls a lot of teams in HA. Because the damage output is so incredibly high. The drawback to IWAY, as I am sure that you can attest to, is that when you go up against certain builds (I think a good BSpike usually poses a problem for IWAY), as well as better balanced teams - you usually don't win. That is even considering that you are playing as a highly competetive and experienced IWAY team. I see no problem in doing this - however, now you have limited yourself in regards to certain types of teams. Additionally, (especially with the eoe nerf), you lose a lot of holding power in HOH.

I don't think team b should be weakened - as long as the skills are all fairly balanced. As a team you decided to put everything into the offense of your team - therefore you should have higher damage output. However, a good balanced will be able to mitigate this damage to themselves by shutting down the correct individuals. This becomes even easier if the build, such as IWAY, is a heavily run build in HA, because the opposing team should know how to shut it down.

What I like about 8v8 in this case is that both IWAY and balanced teams kept changing their builds in order to counter the other. How many times did the resolve trapper become an ele, become a mesmer, become an apostacy necro. That is why 8v8 is good - because you still have a creative metagame based on the ability to counter and then counter the counter.

I see no problem in running FoTM's - I do see a problem in not having the resources available to counter them - should they be run by other teams.

but the problem was instead of sitting down and coming up with a friggin solution, they just go sit in a corner and cry "overpowered" and if they aren't pacified, they go play WoW. and A.Net goes to give certain build(s) an advantage of 2 utility characters through nerfing. and whiners start to play again.

Bastian · Jan 12, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

but the problem was instead of sitting down and coming up with a friggin solution, they just go sit in a corner and cry "overpowered" and if they aren't pacified, they go play WoW. and A.Net goes to give certain build(s) an advantage of 2 utility characters.

Let them play WoW then. Anyone who can't use that as a learning experience deserves to play WoW. The reason PvP in GW is/was good is because the skills are/should be balanced and skill is supposed to be greater than the build. If someone is not willing to take the time to learn - then let 'em go somewhere else. I do agree that the occassional nerf may need to happen in order to keep the meta fresh - as well as dimishing truly "overpowered" builds. However, that should be few and far between.

I also don't think that serious HA players are the ones whining. Serious HA players should see it as a challenge in order to raise their abilities.

Nadia Roark · Jan 12, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I roll my eyes mightily when someone says "Change HA or I WoW."

When you say that, you're basically telling ANet that HA is the only thing keeping you in the game. If that's the case, then you should probably start looking for another game anyway regardless of whether they bring 8v8 back. Why? Because ANet can't possibly please everyone and even within the "8v8 or WoW" crowd there is likely to be wild dissent as to what a proper balance should look like, what builds/tactics should be encouraged or discouraged, and so forth.

I guarantee you ANet is not listening to the "8v8 or WoW" whiners. If you want to force a change back to 8v8 there are many other, more efficient ways to do it.

tomcruisejr · Jan 12, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

I also don't think that serious HA players are the ones whining. Serious HA players should see it as a challenge in order to raise their abilities.

so who are these people whining then? noobs?

i now agree that serious HA players arent the one whining. i never saw leelof whined in any forums ever.

Lord Mendes · Jan 12, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

David? Leteci? Kabale? Powers?

lishi · Jan 13, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

so who are these people whining then? noobs?

i now agree that serious HA players arent the one whining. i never saw leelof whined in any forums ever.

i never seen him post in any forum ever

Yunas Ele · Jan 13, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

This just in, the changes coming will give us "the best #(*%% lever you ever saw".

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2613/gaileto6.png

Mental Leteci · Jan 13, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

The last part wasn't funny at all. Monthly fee = expansions. Yes, I know, you're not forced to buy them, but can you play PvP in GW without Factions or Nightfall? I'm done here. I can't wait to see the exciting changes.

Gaile Gray · Jan 13, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Yunas, you're such a bloomin' rumour monger! Sheesh, you moved so fast to get that here, the pixels hadn't dried on the screenshot!

The monthly fee comment is a joke. The lever comment is a joke. (Uh oh, to be clear, my comment ^ to Yunas is also a joke.) Please, no one should worry, or fret, or sink deeper into the Morass of Gloom because of a few casual words (yes, I'm allowed those!) that were made in a effort to amuse.

Zinger314 · Jan 13, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The monthly fee comment is a joke. The lever comment is a joke. (Uh oh, to be clear, my comment ^ to Yunas is also a joke.) Please, no one should worry, or fret, or sink deeper into the Morass of Gloom because of a few casual words (yes, I'm allowed those!) that were made in a effort to amuse.

Jokes and humor in general (*coughYouTubecough*) are lost over the internet. Smilies do not make anything funny or less serious (which you seem to abuse quite a bit, Gaile...)

Kyle The Piemaster · Jan 13, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

so who are these people whining then? noobs?

i now agree that serious HA players arent the one whining. i never saw leelof whined in any forums ever.

First of all, leeloof doesnt speak, he is so socially inactive that I think he might have even forgotten whatever language he speaks (spanish?). And to clear things up I PM'd leeloof when they changed it to 6 man, he was pretty much in tears and made a few vague references that he was going to commit suicide. But my point is, that this 6v6 change has rattled leeloof so hard that he actually took the time to type something into chat rather than HAing.

nekopowa · Jan 13, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Yunas, you're such a bloomin' rumour monger! Sheesh, you moved so fast to get that here, the pixels hadn't dried on the screenshot!

The monthly fee comment is a joke. The lever comment is a joke. (Uh oh, to be clear, my comment ^ to Yunas is also a joke.) Please, no one should worry, or fret, or sink deeper into the Morass of Gloom because of a few casual words (yes, I'm allowed those!) that were made in a effort to amuse.

I don't really know what's with all the negativity about simple jokes. To be honest, i laughed when i read the chat log

Maybe GW players are getting a little too spoiled because ANet pays this much attention to them. Don't let it offend you or the staff, i think you're doing a wonderful job. Putting some emotions into it is way better than treating it all cold as procedure.

God Apprentice · Jan 13, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I roll my eyes mightily when someone says "Change HA or I WoW."

When you say that, you're basically telling ANet that HA is the only thing keeping you in the game. If that's the case, then you should probably start looking for another game anyway regardless of whether they bring 8v8 back. Why? Because ANet can't possibly please everyone and even within the "8v8 or WoW" crowd there is likely to be wild dissent as to what a proper balance should look like, what builds/tactics should be encouraged or discouraged, and so forth.

I guarantee you ANet is not listening to the "8v8 or WoW" whiners. If you want to force a change back to 8v8 there are many other, more efficient ways to do it.

Very much the truth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Yunas, you're such a bloomin' rumour monger! Sheesh, you moved so fast to get that here, the pixels hadn't dried on the screenshot!

The monthly fee comment is a joke. The lever comment is a joke. (Uh oh, to be clear, my comment ^ to Yunas is also a joke.) Please, no one should worry, or fret, or sink deeper into the Morass of Gloom because of a few casual words (yes, I'm allowed those!) that were made in a effort to amuse.

Gaile you all should make an area called "The Morass of Gloom"

Next expansion elite area ok?

Y O U Lo Se · Jan 13, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

I also don't think that serious HA players are the ones whining. Serious HA players should see it as a challenge in order to raise their abilities.

Since killing the same kind of teams really makes you better...

The serious players ARE whining.

And tomcruise, ever seen spanish people talk english? I didnt...very few of them speak english.

Morgoth the dark · Jan 13, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

For now i bet the new changes will be like (or i would like to see) :

- new maps wih cap points (shrines like AB or HvH)
-old map changes (i really hope they are gonna be bigger than lever upgrade)
-better AI when capping altar (no more ghost blockers i hope)
-less skips (hot at least 10 from zaishen to hoh in last week)

that's at least what i'm thinking on atm. Will add if something comes over my mind

Alleji · Jan 13, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle The Piemaster

First of all, leeloof doesnt speak, he is so socially inactive that I think he might have even forgotten whatever language he speaks (spanish?). And to clear things up I PM'd leeloof when they changed it to 6 man, he was pretty much in tears and made a few vague references that he was going to commit suicide. But my point is, that this 6v6 change has rattled leeloof so hard that he actually took the time to type something into chat rather than HAing.

wtfux kyle, where is your freezie crown avatar?

Skye Marin · Jan 13, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

I think that the capping mechanisms are going to be changed. Basically, no more "Claim Resource".

Here's how I see it:

-Altars are now based on capping with a bodycount.
-The Ghostly Hero is worth one pip of capping.
-Each two people of the same team is worth another pip of capping.
-In 2-team maps, if one team has 3 pips and another has 2 pips, the 3 pip team has one total capping pip that progresses on the cap meter.
-In 3-team maps, the team with the most cumulative pips at any one time controls how the cap meter is filled (The other teams pips are ignored).
-If a team is controlling a cap point, their max HP is reduced by 15%, and all other team's attack power is increased by 15%.

I think these changes would make the game a lot more action-oriented, because now simply killing your opponents will go a long way to capturing the altar. No more delaying until victory with interrupts and knockdowns.

Tea Girl · Jan 13, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle The Piemaster

First of all, leeloof doesnt speak, he is so socially inactive that I think he might have even forgotten whatever language he speaks (spanish?). And to clear things up I PM'd leeloof when they changed it to 6 man, he was pretty much in tears and made a few vague references that he was going to commit suicide. But my point is, that this 6v6 change has rattled leeloof so hard that he actually took the time to type something into chat rather than HAing.

This post just made my day.... rofl

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

so who are these people whining then? noobs?

i now agree that serious HA players arent the one whining. i never saw leelof whined in any forums ever.

Come on now, Mr. Ex-Math... People only whine cuz the game is broken. You can't really fit a varity of characters in it... like -tehzomgtehmythforiwayerrr-- a balanced build? (IWAY: 4 iway wars, 2 necros, 2 rangers/1rit 1ranger; zergway: 3 wars 3paragons; spirit spam: 2 necro,1 rit, 3rangers; bspike: 7/6necros, 1rit (maybe 1 ranger)...etc wow! each FoTM has so many different classes in them!)

I'm not saying balance can't work in 6v6 but it is just so limited that you can't fit a dedicated interrupter (I miss messies and rangers ='[) without losing much of your dmg.