Curse

Yarly · Jan 09, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Its going to be "interesting" to see what they introduce.

Bread Fan · Jan 09, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

The beauty of GvG is that you can realize that you have 3+ control points, so if a team is built for 8v8 you can simply refuse to fight 8v8 until 25 minutes into the match. Tactics in the HA maps simply aren't that good because the objectives aren't interesting.

Yeah the "beauty" of zzz lame vod builds. As we can all see it's another "8v8 is for GvG" so stop playing HA. Thanks for your constructive input.

phasola · Jan 09, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

-HA was dying long before 6v6. There were significant amounts of rage quitting as a result of going to 6v6, but the answer isn't to go back to 8v8. 8v8 was dominated my unstoppable holding builds, which in my mind wasn't a great balance either.

Excuse me, what game do you play ?
Sure HA was "dying" before 6v6, guess 6v6 killed it for good.

tacitus · Jan 09, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

but the answer isn't to go back to 8v8. 8v8 was dominated my unstoppable holding builds, which in my mind wasn't a great balance either.

Oh right.. and thats different to now because?

Yes spirit spam far back in the day was pretty nasty when holding but what was so good at holding since then bloodspike? dont make me laugh. vim? i will laugh. Iway? only one guild could hold well with that and that was before the eoe nerf.

6 man holding builds did you miss things like paragon way how many hours was [hex] in the hall for? did they magically get an extra 2 players when everyone else was limited to 6?

Changing the size of teams did not i say again did not kill ether FOTMs or holding builds.

To anyone who keeps forgetting this make a fridge magnet or something so everytime you get milk, beer etc u are reminded of this fact.

Peopel will continue to hold for a long time because of two things above all else luck and skill. If you have both of them you can do very well regardless of party size.

elektra_lucia · Jan 10, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Bloodspike was actually good at holding.

Dinkytowner · Jan 10, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

8v8 was dominated my unstoppable holding builds, which in my mind wasn't a great balance either.

Remind me of these unstoppable holding builds in 8v8. I don't recall anything as stupid as those couple of days during the pre-nerf paragon days when [veil] (or was it [hex]? whatever you know what I'm refering to.) was holding for 50+ rounds. And even the best bloodspikers (which, I am assuming was your "unstoppable" holding build) couldn't put together more than a 5-10 run hold.

infymys · Jan 10, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by xOdin

Anet needs to attract more people to heros ascent, I even had a 1v1 in halls... wtf.
The Mighty Odin

I was playing during primetime U.S. hours last night and got one skip from Broken Tower to Halls and considering the thrown together group we had (2 monks, 1 rit, 1 thumper, 1 ele and ranger interrupt) we got lucky and won but got kicked the next round. But back to the quote, during the 3+ hours I played with my friends/guildies/alliance members, we got 1v1 on Broken Tower and Scarred Earth several times and even got a 1v1 on Courtyard the one time we got there. This just shows (at least to me) the waning interest in HA and the upcoming beta only seems like a bandaid on a dismembered limb.

B Ephekt · Jan 10, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

There were significant amounts of rage quitting as a result of going to 6v6, but the answer isn't to go back to 8v8.

The question is why NOT return to 8v8, considering that 6v6 didn't actually "fix" anything and is largely hated. 6v6 pvp is just trash, no amount of new maps, objectives or levers is going to change that.

Quote:

8v8 was dominated my unstoppable holding builds, which in my mind wasn't a great balance either.

So 8v8 was bad because you couldn't kill blood spike?

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 10, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Kind of funny that you say you're not repeating it, then repeat it later in your own post.

Like I said, complaints about zergway, spirit spam, etc. are as much issues of scaling and mechanics as they are player count. A solution on the other side of the problem would be to make gimmick builds weaker or more counterable. Ideally, if a build is based too much around one concept, they SHOULD be significantly lacking in some other area that can be exploited to beat them. The fact that this is not the case is a problem in itself.

Things like requiring Song of Concentration are an example of problems caused by mechanics.

Yeah, I kinda meant repeating the explaination of why balanced is useless. Nice try insulting me when I'm right...

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 10, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

K, let's break it down for anet nice and simple here. For a second, let's forget that 8v8 is ridiculously better for reasons already stated ~5000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000 times in this thread, and let us say that 6v6 and 8v8 or equal or something stupid like that. Everyone wants 8v8, so it really doesn't matter which is better as an arena like HA needs a large player base and competitive players. The end.

Riotgear · Jan 10, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

Yeah, I kinda meant repeating the explaination of why balanced is useless.

Yes, which you did, by further complaining that 6v6 does not give enough room for a versatile balanced build.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a flame war over this. The point of the post is that the dominance of certain builds is a symptom of more problems than just player count. Spirit spam is dominant right now because they scale better at lower player counts. JB is dominant because you can't split away from the necro team that's getting flooded with energy, a problem that may even get worse in 8v8 unless soul reaping or JB are tweaked. /P is mandatory because the capture mechanics kind of suck.

Yes, 6v6 can act as a sort of manifier for these problems, as well as making balance even more difficult because it adds a third category of player counts. But I don't think it's the root of the problem, especially when almost all of the current FOTMs are centered around Nightfall abilities (SS, RaO, Sandstorm, Reaper's/SV, JB, SF, etc.)

Khift · Jan 10, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

I love how every pro-8v8 argument highlights problems with halls that aren't going to go away even if you go back to 8v8.

"8v8 didn't have extremely defensive builds."
8v8 didn't have access to Paragons. Give 8v8 Paragons, and guess what, you get extremely defensive builds that take forever to kill.

"8v8 didn't have people holding forever."
Really, now. Holding forever has been a problem in halls since release. It's not gonna stop by going back to 8v8.

"6v6 doesn't have enough skill slots to cover the multiple map objectives -- 8v8 did."
So its 6v6's fault that HA has ancient and outdated maps that has too many unhealthy win conditions with retarded NPCs deciding who wins or loses? Changing it to 8v8 is just a bandaid fix, where the real problem is terrible maps which -- guess what -- were slowly killing HA in the first place and was what caused the 6v6 change to go through in the first place.

"6v6 doesn't have enough skill slots to counter gimmick builds while 8v8 does."
Go take a look at GvG. GvG has 8 character slots and the same problem. Bringing just a skill or two to counter something no longer works. The game has evolved, and builds that are easily countered by one or two skills have all but disappeared as a process of natural selection. Only the builds most resistant to hate have survived -- and now, to hate a build out you need to dedicate almost your entire team to it, just like you do in 6v6. This isn't a problem with 6v6, this is a problem with Guild Wars as a whole.

The only "argument" I've seen for 8v8 is whining and nostalgia. People keep deluding themselves that if we go back to 8v8 it'll be just like 'old times' and will be just as awesome as it was then. It won't be. If we go back to 8v8, we'll see builds with W/A Me/E Me/E P/x P/x Mo/E Mo/E Mo/E that'll take twice as long to kill as the current super defensive builds we have and simultaneously have a stronger spike which thus means you'll see them get to halls more often. We'll see builds with 6-7x SF eles that are just as skill-less as the crap currently in 6v6. We'll see Signet of Mystic Wrath spike expanded to have 8 monks and every bond the game has ever seen -- and you think it takes forever to kill now wait til you see it then! Neo-IWAY will expand to 4 W/x 3 P/x 1 N/Mo and become even stronger. Jagged Bones will fit in a third healer and a third hexer. Believe it or not people more character slots means stronger gimmicks as you have a greater amount of room to create synergy within your build and amplify yourself compared to a normal balanced build. I hear you yelling, "BUT THEN WHY DOES 6V6 HAVE MORE GIMMICKS THAN 8V8?!?" Because of Nightfall. The more strong skills you put into the game the stronger gimmicks become, and Nightfall nearly doubled the game's amount of powerful skills and the end result is gimmicks everywhere getting stronger, and if you think 6v6 had nasty gimmicks you're in for a world of hurt if 8v8 comes around again.

6v6 has just become a scapegoat the HA community has blamed for the problems brought on by Nightfall and the massive power boost given to every build. Heading back to 8v8 isn't gonna get rid of these problems. Let me emphasize that, HEADING BACK TO 8V8 ISN'T GONNA GET RID OF THESE PROBLEMS. All it will do is emphasize them more.

drekmonger · Jan 10, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

In 24v24, it won't be possible to run an effective defensive build because with 24 players you can run enough spikers to instakill anything regardless of defenses.

The trick would be coordinating 24 people.

In closing, 24v24 is the only real PvP mode, and everything else is imbalanced.

Wilhelm · Jan 10, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

6v6 has just become a scapegoat the HA community has blamed for the problems brought on by Nightfall and the massive power boost given to every build. Heading back to 8v8 isn't gonna get rid of these problems. Let me emphasize that, HEADING BACK TO 8V8 ISN'T GONNA GET RID OF THESE PROBLEMS. All it will do is emphasize them more.

Never thought of it like that...I like that viewpoint.

tomcruisejr · Jan 10, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by drekmonger

In 24v24, it won't be possible to run an effective defensive build because with 24 players you can run enough spikers to instakill anything regardless of defenses.

The trick would be coordinating 24 people.

In closing, 24v24 is the only real PvP mode, and everything else is imbalanced.

make HA 24vs24!

B Ephekt · Jan 10, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

I'm not going to bother picking your post apart since you're basically saying the same things over and over, but I had to comment on these points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

6v6 has just become a scapegoat the HA community has blamed for the problems brought on by Nightfall and the massive power boost given to every build.

Good point! I guess that's why people were using the same "scapegoat" reasons before nightfall ever came out, right? Thanks for clearing this misconception up for us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

Heading back to 8v8 isn't gonna get rid of these problems. Let me emphasize that, HEADING BACK TO 8V8 ISN'T GONNA GET RID OF THESE PROBLEMS. All it will do is emphasize them more.

8v8 would probably increase the offense of the current FoTMs, but it would also allow balanced builds to take the utility to counter them. For example, the jagged bones hex garbage wouldn't be so strong if you could actually fit a decent amount of hex removal in your build, without having to rely on an elite (hi humility) or a 2 second cast (purge sig, convert) to counter it. 8v8 would balance out since each character can gain a utility slot or two, and you're gaining two entire character slots.

You're also quite obviously ignoring the upcoming skill balance.

Etrik · Jan 10, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I'm not going to bother picking your post apart since you're basically saying the same things over and over, but I had to comment on these points.

Good point! I guess that's why people were using the same "scapegoat" reasons before nightfall ever came out, right? Thanks for clearing this misconception up for us.

8v8 would probably increase the offense of the current FoTMs, but it would also allow balanced builds to take the utility to counter them. For example, the jagged bones hex garbage wouldn't be so strong if you could actually fit a decent amount of hex removal in your build, without having to rely on an elite (hi humility) or a 2 second cast (purge sig, convert) to counter it. 8v8 would balance out since each character can gain a utility slot or two, and you're gaining two entire character slots.

You're also quite obviously ignoring the upcoming skill balance.

Oh, and what awesome 1s cast hex removal are you gonna be slapping on your two extra characters (that will make everything better, instantly) that will fix the problem with the JB hex build? A Divert? They'll bring 2 more hexers, you fail. See, your logic is kinda flawed, mainly because you're in a box that has the inside filled with '8V8 OWNS 6V6' and can not think outside the box. As it is now, 8v8 won't fix ****. Make HA 7v7 and make everyone shut the hell up already, they both have pros and cons, can't you folks (who are supposed to be 13+, which I doubt many of the people who posted in this thread are) agree to disagree? Christ.

Epic Monkey Battle · Jan 10, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I think maybe what he means, is you can bring a convert hexes on a non monk charachter, or fit in another copy of holy veil, not bring a 3rd monk devoted to removing hexes.

Khift · Jan 10, 2007, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Good point! I guess that's why people were using the same "scapegoat" reasons before nightfall ever came out, right? Thanks for clearing this misconception up for us.

This comment doesn't even make sense. Let me illustrate something to you:

1. HA was 8v8.
2. Nightfall was released and HA was changed to 6v6.
3. People blamed 6v6 for damaging the metagame.

Are you trying to tell me that people were blaming 6v6 for the damage to the metagame before it was even made 6v6? That people were screaming and crying about how everything was too defensive in 6v6 during the preview event? Because that's not what I heard or experienced, in fact it was the exact opposite -- everything was aggressive and fast paced. The only complaints I read were about how it would break up 8 men HA guilds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Epheckt

8v8 would probably increase the offense of the current FoTMs, but it would also allow balanced builds to take the utility to counter them. For example, the jagged bones hex garbage wouldn't be so strong if you could actually fit a decent amount of hex removal in your build, without having to rely on an elite (hi humility) or a 2 second cast (purge sig, convert) to counter it. 8v8 would balance out since each character can gain a utility slot or two, and you're gaining two entire character slots.

Do you honestly believe that being able to fit two, maybe even three more non-elite hex removals would counteract adding another hexer with infinite energy? It's not even going to come close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Epheckt

You're also quite obviously ignoring the upcoming skill balance.

Of course I am. It has absolutely nothing to do with 6v6 vs 8v8. It's a completely irrelevant tangential topic that has nothing in common with a conversation of the merits (or lack thereof) of raising the character limit in HA.

Epic Monkey Battle · Jan 10, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

Of course I am. It has absolutely nothing to do with 6v6 vs 8v8. It's a completely irrelevant tangential topic that has nothing in common with a conversation of the merits (or lack thereof) of raising the character limit in HA.

How doesn't the skill balance affect the character limit? By having skills that are balanced means that you can bring 1 or 2 skills to counter it, it wouldn't be like how you claim that you need a whole team build now to counter it. Maybe when the skills are balanced you can effectively run a build that resembles balanced in both 6v6 and 8v8. And in 8v8 you could bring more utility to counter other FoTM.