Curse

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 09, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that the map/victory changes can't do something about "build vs. skill." It seems to me like most of these fotm teams are built to hold. Players realize that with 6-minute tombs and lots of skips, the only way to rack up the fame (and now moreso than ever really) is to be able to hold against two other teams for 2 minutes. More maps should entail a wider variance of skips. So if the days of the Zaishen-BT-Courtyard/HoH skips are numbered, it could make it harder for a build like that to dominate the entire tournament without any real effort or skill.

Also we should be open to the possibility that a skill balance could open up some room for added utility. I agree with you if you're saying that with the existing skills effective counters are difficult to come by in 6v6, but we should be open to the possbility that buffs/nerfs can fix things just as well as a change in player format.

How would any of this make a difference?

If holding is removed and turned into an objective which requires annihilation, then fotms will probably be focused into extremely heavy pressure, attempting to overpower the 2 monk backline. When this is achieved, you'll need to counter this. You could:

Run a 3 monk backline to counter the pressure, but you probably can't kill anything.

Dedicate a spot which can defend against the pressure while doing damage (SS warder etc)

Buff healing/protection

Now let's say there's also an extremely powerful hex overload form going around, similar to the soul barbs spirit spam hex spam crap. Now you need to counter that:

Run a mesmer to shutdown the hexers.

Run a caster with some hex removal skills (necro with convert etc)

Buff hex removal

On top of that, let's throw in some random gimmick spike build created from a skill being buffed. To counter:

Infuse (which is becomming common again anyway)

Ranger/mesmer to help interupt the spike

I doubt they'll eliminate every alter map, so of course you need a concentration (if they don't nerf it to hell), and some sort of interupt (ranger / mesmer).

Now as simple as those counters seems, its not. First of all, you can't buff/nerf skills which aren't working right in 6v6, because that can screw up GvG. So now what do you do if a skill's fine in 8v8 but overpowered in 6v6? Just pretend it's not there?

Second, you have 4 spots out of 6 with your 2 monks. You'll need something to counter the heavy pressure, you'll need something to counter the extremely heavy hexes, and you STILL need to be able to kill. That limits what you can run without being rolled.

So which sounds easier in this situation? Create a balanced skillful build which will be rolled by lower skilled players running the fotm you couldn't fit a counter in for, or running the fotm itself? Thats right, it leads back to fotm > balance.

Nadia Roark · Jan 09, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Bacon: I understand what you're saying. I realize that you put a lot of time into explaining that but it doesn't add anything new to the conversation that wasn't already covered with the previous complaint that counters are hard to build into 6v6. We've already been over that and I don't disagree on any particular point. What I'm objecting to is the (apparent) preconception you have of any attempt to reconcile 6v6 as useless. I can't pretend to know everything about the skill balances so I can't speak with authority as to whether it's possible to balance 6v6 HA (apparently you can) but I think the weekend event will help me figure that out. It just seems like you're jumping to conclusions to me.

Leguma: I've run as the only monk in 6v6 tombs before and I got a decent bit of fame from it. Conventions can be fun to defy especially when no one's expecting it. I ran 5 eles and 1 monk with Philoso and I was carrying Life Sheath--LIFE SHEATH! as my elite. We had an obvious and profound weakness against hex builds but just about anything else we rolled. My point is that there are still plenty of ways to monkey around with 6-man builds; and the fact that it doesn't always happen is often a function of the community (i.e. us) and not so much the format of the game. The HA player base has, as a general rule, preferred convention over innovation.

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 09, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Bacon: I understand what you're saying. I realize that you put a lot of time into explaining that but it doesn't add anything new to the conversation that wasn't already covered with the previous complaint that counters are hard to build into 6v6. We've already been over that and I don't disagree on any particular point. What I'm objecting to is the (apparent) preconception you have of any attempt to reconcile 6v6 as useless. I can't pretend to know everything about the skill balances so I can't speak with authority as to whether it's possible to balance 6v6 HA (apparently you can) but I think the weekend event will help me figure that out. It just seems like you're jumping to conclusions to me.

I don't have a clue what the updates are going to be, and I will honestly say I think they'll break HA even more. The example of heavy pressure fotm's are simply hypothetical. It was a way to show how 6v6 really is useless, piled onto the already stated reasons.

leguma · Jan 09, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I've run as the only monk in 6v6 tombs before and I got a decent bit of fame from it. Conventions can be fun to defy especially when no one's expecting it. I ran 5 eles and 1 monk with Philoso and I was carrying Life Sheath--LIFE SHEATH! as my elite. We had an obvious and profound weakness against hex builds but just about anything else we rolled. My point is that there are still plenty of ways to monkey around with 6-man builds; and the fact that it doesn't always happen is often a function of the community (i.e. us) and not so much the format of the game. The HA player base has, as a general rule, preferred convention over innovation.

Would these by any chance have been Ether Prodigy E/Mos with heal party and seed? or were they bay any chance more akin to the heal area, healing ring E/Mos that were popular for a while? Your reply is not that far from the guy several post up which was saying that I am wrong because IWAY never ran any monks. Furthermore, would you consider that the build you are refering to could ever be described as a ballanced build?

If you want, I can hook you up with Shan and you can join him when he goes for an "all mesmer" trip to the FoW or UW or whereever... no monks there either, it's quite innovative.

Mental Leteci · Jan 09, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

IMHO, this is what i think. If they start changing 6v6 now they will make it even worse. Either nerf skills and leave it 6v6 or go back to 8v8 and bring new maps. People just got used to this 6v6 and now they're changing it, there will be just more whining. Nerf skills or bring 8v8. Other is just a bad idea.

Randomway Ftw · Jan 09, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

To all you people who keep QQing about defensive builds, don't you remember that in 8v8, the most popular builds were extremely offensive, for example IWAY (dying near the end of 8v8), VIMWAY, frequently rub by noobs, or 7 spiker 1 ritualist og spike, a blood spike capable with killing instead of holding because of the inability to shut down enough spikers.

Nadia Roark · Jan 09, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Would these by any chance have been Ether Prodigy E/Mos with heal party and seed?

No. All healing/prot duties were delegated to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

or were they bay any chance more akin to the heal area, healing ring E/Mos that were popular for a while?

One time we ran 6 Eles and did this, but with the monk in the build we didn't build for a ball. I don't think we even had wards for a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Your reply is not that far from the guy several post up which was saying that I am wrong because IWAY never ran any monks.

Without meaning to sound acrid, I happen to agree with him. Saying something like "All builds require a backline" is tenuous at best since a certain combination of skills or circumstances can make this line a fuzzy one. I think he's trying to point out that all kinds of stuff most of us probably haven't even dreamed of can probably work. If you have a leet pwnz0r monk and can apply a lot of pressure really fast, you could run, say, expel on a mes and a hybrid prot/heal bar for your monk. I think some of us are reacting a bit poorly because we're getting beat in tombs more than we used to. If the better team always won, the game would hardly be worth playing (and rank advancement would be impossible).

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Furthermore, would you consider that the build you are refering to could ever be described as a ballanced build?

Heavens no. But a lot of the people who dismiss fotms out of hand (part of me doesn't blame them) are overlooking the fact that something like a "Fear Me"-way basically is an evolved balanced build: it has a well defined frontline (2 steady wars), midline (wards etc) and backline (2 monks). Both offense and defense are considered almost equally (with 2.5 defensive characters and 3.5 offensive ones) and the roles within the build are different but well defined for every player. To me, a balanced build is any pressure build that has three definable ines of engagement. Fearway happens to have that, but is dismissed as invalid by a number of HA regulars simply as a result of how often its run. I don't run it either, but at least I don't claim that balanced "doesn't work anymore" when one of its incarnations happens to be reasonably successful.

That said, my guild still runs a different kind of balanced in tombs and we win with it. Thus, I find it difficult to refrain from laughing at (or at least pitying) the people who claim that it's "impossible to run."

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

If you want, I can hook you up with Shan and you can join him when he goes for an "all mesmer" trip to the FoW or UW or whereever... no monks there either, it's quite innovative.

Sounds... interesting to say the least. I'll give anything a shot once but damn if I have a PvE Mesmer

leguma · Jan 09, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

No. All healing/prot duties were delegated to me.

If you went into HA with 5 eles and 1 monk, and the opposing team did not kill you, I will presume that you were playing against heroes because any half decent team should have been able to take out your team easily. Then again, you could have been running running Obsidian Flesh, Stoneflesh Aura, Stone Stiker, Mantra of Earth, Armor of Earth Elementalists. Also I would be curious to know how you handled altar maps and keeping the hero alive in general, then again, you did say you had Life Sheaf on your bar so that would explain why you only needed one monk.
Running one monk can be done, but it cannot be done successfuly on all the HA maps. What do you do on relic runs, where you need to kee pthe runner up and going, and keep the people trying to block your relic inside your base alive and keep the hero alive?

Also, agreeing with someone that says IWAY did not run monks (when I specifically said that I was uning the word monk for primary monks, necro/monk and necro/rits for ease) does nothing for your credibility. If you claim that a necromancer primary with 12 in soul reaping and 12 in healin/prot and an all monk bar is not a monk, you are missing the point on purpose.

As for the not adjusting and loosing more than usual BS, spare me the flame bait. In a competitive environment, the better team will always win in a 1 on 1, and, yes, the game will be very playable and very enjoyable for competitive players. Mayhap you need to look up the words "competitive", and "better"... and while you're at it, look up the word "scrub".

B Ephekt · Jan 09, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by drekmonger

Please.

Once upon a time, it was unthinkable to run less than 3 monks in GvG. Back in old PvP Tombs, I had to pull teeth for hours to get people to try builds with 1 or 0 monks that later became popular (IWAY and FoC Spike, in particular). People right now are running 2 or 3 monks in HvH -- for the most part beatable by an offensive build with 0 monks.

People actually learning to play GvG in ways other than 8v8 at the stand, and the advent of booners, led to the end of the 3 monk GvG backline. IWAY had a two "monk" backline in the form of orders necros that healed (ok early versions had a single bonder or order nec, but that didn't last long). Necro spike never needed a monk for anything else but a high specced Spell Breaker and healing/infuses while they spiked. Let's not take things out of context here... in anything that even remotely resembles a balanced build you're still going to need a 2 "monk" backline - whether they're resto rits, necros, motivation paragons or monks primaries, there is a need for 2 "healers" in 99% of the builds out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I ran 5 eles and 1 monk with Philoso and I was carrying Life Sheath--LIFE SHEATH! as my elite. We had an obvious and profound weakness against hex builds but just about anything else we rolled. My point is that there are still plenty of ways to monkey around with 6-man builds; and the fact that it doesn't always happen is often a function of the community (i.e. us) and not so much the format of the game. The HA player base has, as a general rule, preferred convention over innovation.

I'm sure this had nothing to do with the fact that you had 7 billion sandstorms and an obs spike on top of that, right? That build has so much short-term pressure that the opposing team usually explodes before they even get a chance to target anyone.

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 09, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Heavens no. But a lot of the people who dismiss fotms out of hand (part of me doesn't blame them) are overlooking the fact that something like a "Fear Me"-way basically is an evolved balanced build: it has a well defined frontline (2 steady wars), midline (wards etc) and backline (2 monks). Both offense and defense are considered almost equally (with 2.5 defensive characters and 3.5 offensive ones) and the roles within the build are different but well defined for every player. To me, a balanced build is any pressure build that has three definable ines of engagement. Fearway happens to have that, but is dismissed as invalid by a number of HA regulars simply as a result of how often its run. I don't run it either, but at least I don't claim that balanced "doesn't work anymore" when one of its incarnations happens to be reasonably successful.

Since when do people run 2 monks in fear me. All I've seen is 3 fear me warriors and 3 paragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

As for the not adjusting and loosing more than usual BS, spare me the flame bait. In a competitive environment, the better team will always win in a 1 on 1, and, yes, the game will be very playable and very enjoyable for competitive players. Mayhap you need to look up the words "competitive", and "better"... and while you're at it, look up the word "scrub".

The better team will ALWAYS win 1v1? Yeah... you're wrong. Perhaps you should be the one looking up scrub.

leguma · Jan 09, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

The better team will ALWAYS win 1v1? Yeah... you're wrong. Perhaps you should be the one looking up scrub.

Are we talking about GuildWars or BuildWars?

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 09, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Are we talking about GuildWars or BuildWars?

Whats the difference. The better team doesn't always win.

Franco Power · Jan 09, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

Whats the difference. The better team doesn't always win.

Im not doing tombs when leteci is playing anymore >.>

leguma · Jan 09, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

Whats the difference. The better team doesn't always win.

When I say the better team, I'm talking about the team that has played better during the match itself, not about the team that has played better in other previous matches. If you face someone with a total counter to your build, you must be running too much of something and not enough of something else, and even then you can compensate by strategising and using manouvers, the terrain and pretty much everything at your disposal.
Also, if you make mistakes, either in build or in play and the other team punishes you for it, they are the better team in that match, regardless of previous achivements you might have had.

Nadia Roark · Jan 09, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Oh. I've never run the build myself but once I tried to run 2 eles 2 monks and 2 steady warrs and my alliance yelled at me for "running fearway." I just assumed (erroneously) that I had inadvertantly come up with the "Fear Me!" build or at least a modification of it.

Also leguma, I wasn't claiming that builds don't have backlines and I realize that the term "monk" is usually used for simplicity's sake. You happened to say something like "every HA build will require a 2 monk backline"--you can't seriously expect someone not to say something about that. A lot of the fotms out there right now don't have them. Paraway doesn't have one, Fearway doesn't have one (apparently) and neither does ele ball. Ele ball comes close since its members function in both offensive and defensive capacities, but that doesn't make them any more "backline" than, say, a warder with Heal Party.

And no, our build was 5 ele spikers with no self prot/dmg reduction (but they did have Aura of Restoration) and a kickass prot/healer (me). Altar maps were dealt with by allowing the other teams to write us off (since we only had one monk and no /Mo Ele secondaries) and capping as late as possible. We capped at 1:10 on courtyard and held off Yuna's Ele and another (apparently) ranked team that I admittedly did not recognize. We didn't play any relic runs. I felt reasonably comfortable as the only monk and would be more than happy to do it again.

Also, if you'd like to have a civilized discussion about this please get out of my face with this dictionary sh!t. If not, I'm sure the moderators would be more than happy to have a word with you. You talk about "losing credibility" and then presume to tell me that the "better team always wins in 1v1?" Please.

EDIT: And if you meant to say "the team that playes better" why didn't you say that to begin with? Saying "The better team wins 1v1" is kind of ambiguous.

BenO_Under · Jan 09, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

When my old guild (disbanded now

) started doing fearway, we used 4 warriors and 2 monk backline, so I guess that there can be many variants of the "same" FoTM.

Yunas Ele · Jan 09, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Oh. I've never run the build myself but once I tried to run 2 eles 2 monks and 2 steady warrs and my alliance yelled at me for "running fearway." I just assumed (erroneously) that I had inadvertantly come up with the "Fear Me!" build or at least a modification of it.

Also leguma, I wasn't claiming that builds don't have backlines and I realize that the term "monk" is usually used for simplicity's sake. You happened to say something like "every HA build will require a 2 monk backline"--you can't seriously expect someone not to say something about that. A lot of the fotms out there right now don't have them. Paraway doesn't have one, Fearway doesn't have one (apparently) and neither does ele ball. Ele ball comes close since its members function in both offensive and defensive capacities, but that doesn't make them any more "backline" than, say, a warder with Heal Party.

And no, our build was 5 ele spikers with no self prot/dmg reduction (but they did have Aura of Restoration) and a kickass prot/healer (me). Altar maps were dealt with by allowing the other teams to write us off (since we only had one monk and no /Mo Ele secondaries) and capping as late as possible. We capped at 1:10 on courtyard and held off Yuna's Ele and another (apparently) ranked team that I admittedly did not recognize. We didn't play any relic runs. I felt reasonably comfortable as the only monk and would be more than happy to do it again.

Also, if you'd like to have a civilized discussion about this please get out of my face with this dictionary sh!t. If not, I'm sure the moderators would be more than happy to have a word with you. You talk about "losing credibility" and then presume to tell me that the "better team always wins in 1v1?" Please.

EDIT: And if you meant to say "the team that playes better" why didn't you say that to begin with? Saying "The better team wins 1v1" is kind of ambiguous.

If I remember that match correctly u guys were 5 sandstorm ob spikes so u just wtfpwned our ghost

You're right though, when we saw 1 monk and eles using aura of restoration we thought u guys were a joke team or something... how wrong we were.

Anyways people are gonna give u **** cuz that build isn't balanced blah blah blah blah. Anyways if you have fun playing that build I say go for it. People whined and complained about "gimmicked ****" in 8v8 and they will still do it in 6v6 zzzzzzzz

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipknotOFA

Same thing everytime I come to HA thread on here turn it back to 8vs8 blah blah you all need to get a life and get out more

If you have to bash random people on the internet's life it really says something about your own life. Just because someone plays a video game and wants to make their experience playing this game more enjoyable and have discussions with other user's on their opinions to make the game more enjoyable means they have no life? I fail to see the connection. I knew someone who was married, had a job, life outside of GW and still was one of the earlier (no where near the first but still quite early) to get r12... I could tell you about my life but quite honestly I don't feel the need to "prove myself" to some kid who has to bash other people's lives over the internet...

llsektorll · Jan 09, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

stand back guys and put up sb for that shock warrior....

anyways... the only logical and clear solution to this is to create a seperate HA for the rankless a noob HA. Get rank3 and get promoted to the actual HA. The only way you can get into real HA without r3 is by special invitation and 50g usually only guildies would do that.

Yunas Ele · Jan 09, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

stand back guys and put up sb for that shock warrior....

anyways... the only logical and clear solution to this is to create a seperate HA for the rankless a noob HA. Get rank3 and get promoted to the actual HA. The only way you can get into real HA without r3 is by special invitation and 50g usually only guildies would do that.

How long ago was that? Its sad that you have to bring up a typo I made months ago every time I post. Btw, you can trash talk me when you learn to beat unranked vim group k thx bye. http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5...thegamezv3.jpg

Your idea fails too, btw. People have suggested it earlier in this topic and its been shutdown...

Nadia Roark · Jan 09, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

If I remember that match correctly u guys were 5 sandstorm ob spikes so u just wtfpwned our ghost

You're right though, when we saw 1 monk and eles using aura of restoration we thought u guys were a joke team or something... how wrong we were.

Yeah, the build was kind of cheesy. I love to brag about being the only monk but the fact of the matter was most of the would-be pressure had been destroyed before it got a change to really sink its teeth into me. Also, I assumed going into that run that I would be an automatic first target but this didn't end up being the case. I think a lot of teams assumed that because there was only one monk, they'd be able to put down anything they wanted and I'd be helpless to prevent it. Most of the time, this assumption was erroneous.

Quote:

Anyways people are gonna give u **** cuz that build isn't balanced blah blah blah blah. Anyways if you have fun playing that build I say go for it. People whined and complained about "gimmicked ****" in 8v8 and they will still do it in 6v6 zzzzzzzz

...Which is precisely why I ignore the people who are whining about 6v6 because of what's being run in it as opposed to genuine complaints about the format itself. So far the strongest argument, in my view, has been the shifting emphasis of "build vs. skill" as mentioned earlier.