Curse

jktstance · Jan 23, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

I've heard from a variety of sources that spearagons are a joke in pvp, as in they are terrible for spikes or pressure, although they can assist using spear of lightning + GftE. Looking through the skill lists, though, it seems they have the tools to do a very good job in spike or pressure.

Spears attack as fast as swords/axes, do more average damage, and generally are difficult to avoid in when damage is coming from multiple sources. They have Aggressive Refrain or Soldier's Fury, and they can build adrenaline quickly using Focused Anger or perhaps even Natural Temper. Anthem of Flame applies Burning before an attack is checked (I believe), so skills like Stunning Strike will apply Dazed if Anthem of Flame is up (not that it's hard to just spam Barbed Spear beforehand).

Spear of Lightning does solid, spammable damage. Blazing Spear (especially after the temporary buff) can do some hard damage plus Burning. Cruel Spear does high damage and only costs 7 adrenaline. The deep wound condition isn't terribly difficult to meet, especially if you have a shock warrior or a gale ele helping out. Vicious Strike + GftE is almost guarateed deep wound plus decent bonus damage.

Can someone explain to me why spearagons are considered vastly inferior for both pressure damage and spike damage?

Thom Bangalter · Jan 23, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Spear throwing paragons are both excellent at spiking and pressure. Whomever told you that is wrong.

Sinful Doom · Jan 23, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jktstance

I've heard from a variety of sources that spearagons are a joke in pvp, as in they are terrible for spikes or pressure,

Whoever your source is, they must be playing a different game than GW.

Divineshadows · Jan 23, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jktstance

Spears attack as fast as swords/axes, do more average damage, and generally are difficult to avoid in when damage is coming from multiple sources. They have Aggressive Refrain or Soldier's Fury, and they can build adrenaline quickly using Focused Anger or perhaps even Natural Temper. Anthem of Flame applies Burning before an attack is checked (I believe), so skills like Stunning Strike will apply Dazed if Anthem of Flame is up (not that it's hard to just spam Barbed Spear beforehand).

Spears do not attack as fast as swords and axes. Spears at once per 1.5 seconds. Swords/axes at once per 1.33 seconds. If they attacked at the same rate, then spears would do more damage than swords and axes.

Here are some damage numbers for the two new classes to chew on against non-kiting 60 AL targets. The numbers were computed assuming that the 15% damage mod (i.e. health above 50%) is always being triggered and that the weapons are customized:

21.77 DPS @ 12 spear
23.81 DPS @ 14 spear
26.15 DPS @ 16 spear

29.03 DPS @ 12 spear under aggressive refrain
31.75 DPS @ 14 spear under aggressive refrain
34.87 DPS @ 16 spear under aggressive refrain

26.91 DPS @ 14 scythe
29.82 DPS @ 16 scythe

34.54 DPS @ 14 scythe with heart of fury @ 12 mysticism
38.27 DPS @ 16 scythe with heart of fury @ 12 mysticism

48.81 DPS @ 14 scythe with heart of fury and eremite's attack
53.82 DPS @ 16 scythe with heart of fury and eremite's attack

* - the time cost of casting heart of fury (i.e. not attacking for 3/4 second + 3/4 second aftercast) and the damage from burning were not factored into the computations of these numbers. These two factors should be about a wash, but would pull the figures down ever so slightly. However, these figures were also computed without factoring in an enchanting mod for heart of fury.

Conclusions:

- Paragon spear damage comes very close to that of swords and axes. Aggressive refrain certainly can't measure up to a warrior being allowed to constantly frenzy, but it also has less downside. Paragons are not quite as strong as warriors from a pure damage perspective, but the support they other the team from the command and/or motivation lines make them very efficient characters. When speccing into other lines, it is unlikely that you will have more than 12 or 13 in spear mastery but these levels still provide strong DPS especially when using aggressive refrain. In my opinion, paragons do a bit too much damage with their spears and A-net should look at lowering the fire rate of spears to 1.7 or 1.75.

- Scythes do more damage than any of the warrior weapons. Using heart of fury for 17 out of every 30 seconds brings a dervish @16 scythe very close to the damage level of a warrior @16 weapon mastery who is being allowed to constantly frenzy.

- Eremite's attack (and/or mystic sweep in the right team builds) really puts dervish damage at a level beyond what warriors can achieve. A warrior can try to keep up by using protector's strike to further boost DPS through getting extra attacks in, but at a mere 2 pips of energy regeneration a warrior is not going to be able to spam prot strike the way a dervish can spam eremite's attack. In addition, any warrior that attempts to spam prot strike is not going to have any energy left for frenzy.

- The only areas where a warrior outperforms a dervish are in the ability to interrupt (distracting blow, disrupting chop), the ability to knockdown (not to be taken lightly), and in having a higher base armor level. A DPS differential of 10+ though in favor of the dervish is one of the big reasons that warriors are being seen less and less in GvGs while dervishes are being seen more. Of course, the imba avatars and wearying strike are the others.

Blame the Monks · Jan 24, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jktstance

Can someone explain to me why spearagons are considered vastly inferior for both pressure damage and spike damage?

...because "spearchuckers" lack the ability to completely bypass major aspects of physical shutdown by ignoring enchantments or blinds for at least half of the battle ala Dervishes. That and the skills of a para are better used to generate party wide passive defense and/or applying permanent burning to the other party.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 24, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Watch kestrel then.

Go back in time and watch MH this weekend, or half the euro guilds. Paragon spear pressure is really strong, plus the ability to spike, and the ability to buff other physicals or party mates. Motivation is largely trash though.

Patrograd · Jan 24, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Motivation is largely trash though.

A 14 specced Finale of Restoration in the correct build is the strongest counter pressure skill I have seen in quite some time

Generally I think we will start seeing more and more paragons in all roles. I have guested for a paragon spike that flawlessed a top ten guild on a splittable map (Warriors) not that long ago, and pressure builds incorporating at least two paragons are starting to surface all over the place.

jktstance · Jan 24, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

OK, I guess I could have run the numbers myself. Clearly, dervishes are excellent pressure (although hammer pressure is another effective form, but nothing can beat the cheapness that is avatar of grenth), but what about spiking. Dervishes can apply deep wound and can attack quickly, but nowhere near as fast as a warrior or assassin. How about paragons? For better spiking speed, Soldier's Fury can be used, and Harrier's Toss is a great follow-up.

I never really see any paragons in gvg that take more than 1 attack skill. I've seen spearagons a few times, mostly using spear of lightning and GftE, and more rarely cruel spear, but almost all of them are pure buffers with SoL, surely specced at 9 spear mastery.