Curse

Mouse at Large · Dec 28, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

It seems that alot of PVE carebears love this skill, and like to bring that love into pvp skill discussions, ignoring any thought of balance, and thinking that fire magic should pwn all else.

I suppose I fall into the above category. What you miss is the emphasis. I don't want fire magic to "pwn all else". If I did, I'd be complaining about the rest of the fire line and demanding a buff. All I want is for a decent damage/pressure combo to be left alone.

By the logic of some of the posts, I would expect all aspects of PvE to be completely dominated bt SF ele teams. Open your eyes - IT'S NOT.

While we're at it, can I just put down a few markers of my own.......

I'd like Necros generally nerfed - all that degen kills me
Assassins and Warriors likewise for their overpowered slayage
oh, and Dervishes as well
Mesmers should be removed from the game entirely as should be all the Ranger interrupts
Monks and Rits can stay just as long as they freeze in place and don't run away from my AoE spells

Heaven forbid I should have to actually think how to deal with any of the above.

I'm still a glass cannon with 60 AL and no defensive buffs. If you look at the recent Wintersday Tournament, where teams were restricted to Core and Nightfall skills, by the logic of the pro-nerf brigade, a team stuffed full of SF eles should have walked it.....

Errrrrrr - didn't happen.

Q.E.D.

Ensign · Dec 28, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Searing Flames has the same problem as Avatar of Grenth, Rampage as One, and Blinding Surge - they reward far too much effectiveness for far too little execution. In many cases you just mash on buttons and win because of these skills. Simple characters aren't bad for the game, but ones this good de-emphasise player skill and create the hard RPS metagames that really aren't all that fun to play in.

Peace,
-CxE

Hubert · Dec 28, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I suppose I fall into the above category. What you miss is the emphasis. I don't want fire magic to "pwn all else". If I did, I'd be complaining about the rest of the fire line and demanding a buff. All I want is for a decent damage/pressure combo to be left alone.

By the logic of some of the posts, I would expect all aspects of PvE to be completely dominated bt SF ele teams. Open your eyes - IT'S NOT.

While we're at it, can I just put down a few markers of my own.......

I'd like Necros generally nerfed - all that degen kills me
Assassins and Warriors likewise for their overpowered slayage
oh, and Dervishes as well
Mesmers should be removed from the game entirely as should be all the Ranger interrupts
Monks and Rits can stay just as long as they freeze in place and don't run away from my AoE spells

Heaven forbid I should have to actually think how to deal with any of the above.

I'm still a glass cannon with 60 AL and no defensive buffs. If you look at the recent Wintersday Tournament, where teams were restricted to Core and Nightfall skills, by the logic of the pro-nerf brigade, a team stuffed full of SF eles should have walked it.....

Errrrrrr - didn't happen.

Q.E.D.

If i remember correctly guild wars is a TEAM game you are judging the skill by your characters view. There must be a balance between skills, that in pvp the players skills, tactics are rewarded not the builds they use. And as you can read the title this is a pvp skill discussion.

Riotgear · Dec 29, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by niels haeken

i'm paper nerf scizzors rock is fine

The only counter to ridiculous amounts of DPS are similarly ridiculous builds.

The game does not need RPS-style hard counter stupidity, where everyone's running a turtling shutdown/spike build, or a steamroll build with no defense.

Quote:

and thinking that fire magic should pwn all else.

More like they're afraid that SF is going to eat a nerf while the rest of fire doesn't get looked at, which will make it suck all over again. A lot of people are excited that elementalists are finally a viable damage option after about a year and a half of... ahem... false advertising, and don't want to see it taken away.

Quote:

I would expect all aspects of PvE to be completely dominated bt SF ele teams. Open your eyes - IT'S NOT.

Because if you bring nothing but a team of 60AL characters against a bunch of kamikazi level 28s who have nothing on their mind except killing you, you are going to get rolled. Duh.

Ironically, nuking in PvE is completely dominated by SF.

Quote:

If you look at the recent Wintersday Tournament, where teams were restricted to Core and Nightfall skills, by the logic of the pro-nerf brigade, a team stuffed full of SF eles should have walked it.....

Because the Wintersday tournament was dominated by SP spike. You would have to be completely retarded to run SF against five dom mesmers.

Phoenix Ex · Dec 29, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Searing flames is fine. There are so many ways to counter it....Diversion, sig of humility, interrupts, arcane conundrum/migraine/frustration. One dom mesmer can shutdown 2 or more SF eles and can still pester monks and necros if there isn't a SF ele.

So many have the weird perception that warrior doing damage (that is greater than what searing flames can do without all the energy requirement) must be the status quo, and that being forced to bring some sort of caster hate and forgo the excessive blinding flash, wards, block/evade stance, anti-melee hex, blinding surge, cripples, hex slowdown and many many more that they bring to counter warriors is the end of the world....

If anything this will finally bring TRUE shutdown mes/rangers back into the metagame and not the Diversion spam/enchantment shatter support, and cripple ranger that is getting really stale....since every single good caster based pressure and spike has been nerfed in some way or another.

]SK[ · Jan 16, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I'm not sure what you can do to SF. Maybe tone down its damage output. I wouldn't like to see this happen though. Maybe they will make Glowing Gaze less energy gained. They could increase the recharge but that would ruin the skill completely. Much like if they reduced the burning time.

All in all though its a nice skill and finally makes Ele's worth while in PvP. Will be a shame to see them disappear to end up running around spamming Heal Party yet again.

kvndoom · Jan 17, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

I've been mulling on this for a while now, might as well throw my twopence in:

Searing Flames: 15/2/5

Invoke Searing Flames at target foe's location. Target foe and all (adjacent/nearby) foes not suffering from Burning take *** fire damage and are set on fire for * seconds.

This way, only one invocation of SF can damage/burn you at a time, but it can be chained, and the target can be punished if the burning is removed prematurely and you have more than 1 SF on your team. So playing against [Izzy] and getting hit by 5 copies of SF simultaneously won't really do much other than waste their time and energy.

Patccmoi · Jan 17, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

I've been mulling on this for a while now, might as well throw my twopence in:

Searing Flames: 15/2/5

Invoke Searing Flames at target foe's location. Target foe and all (adjacent/nearby) foes not suffering from Burning take *** fire damage and are set on fire for * seconds.

This way, only one invocation of SF can damage/burn you at a time, but it can be chained, and the target can be punished if the burning is removed prematurely and you have more than 1 SF on your team. So playing against [Izzy] and getting hit by 5 copies of SF simultaneously won't really do much other than waste their time and energy.

That would kinda kill the skill, seriously. Basically you couldn't use it with anything else causing burning in your team, and it wouldn't really work for pressure anymore at all.

Personally the idea i like the most up to now is to make it similar to a buffed Nearby Immolate using Incendiary Bonds damage. Basically:

15/1/2

Target foe and nearby foes are struck for 20...68 fire damage and are set on fire for 1...6 seconds.

There is no Searing Flames used only to burn anymore, they always do damage AND burn. While it might seem like a big damage nerf, for pressure it's actually just as good as before for 1 SF alone. Right now, if you're alone using SF, every 3 cast at level 16 you do ~240 damage + burning (1 to burn, 2 doing damage). Then burning runs out, and you have to restart.

With my suggestion, the damage would be really close. Every 3 cast, you would do ~255 damage + burning and burning won't run out right after. You don't risk having the damage screwed because they removed burning either.

The difference is mainly the efficiency when stacked. If 4 SF Eles are casting 12 Searing Flames (3 each), with the current SF they do ~1440 damage. With my version, they would do ~1020 damage. Overall, it's a really big nerf in the overall damage mass SF deal. But 1 SF ele would remain viable (imo even more than it is now since you don't actually HAVE to spam it on recharge not to waste burning time, so you can be more careful about Diversion, etc.), which is something i DON'T want to see gone. I want 1 SF Ele to be strong, Fire Eles SHOULD have a high DPS elite, what is bad is how powerful 4-5 SF Eles together are. Yes, it's a fragile build, but when your full team is blasted appart nearly instantly it doesn't matter all that much in the end.

So i'd really rather see it as a buffed up Nearby Immolate than what it is now, which is just far too abusable in pack of eles, but nerfing it while keeping the same functionality (if they don't burn they burn, if they burn they take damage) will make it totally unviable with only 1 Ele. And that's bad, cause if you want balanced teams it's nice to be able to use a skill with 1 of the build, not 4-5. And if SF becomes unviable, then Fire Eles go back to unusable as DPS chars (Savannah is still an awesome 'spike' skill, but the rest of the line is lacking to build DPS around).

MaaKotka · Jan 17, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

My suggestion is to change the damage so it would do same or even more damage to target and do about 30 less damage to adjacent and then about 50 less damage to nearby and burning area and duration be the same or second or two longer.

tomcruisejr · Jan 18, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by niels haeken

i'm paper nerf scizzors rock is fine

I'm paper. Please nerf scissors. Don't touch rock coz rock is noob.

Rey Lentless · Jan 28, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

About the same opinion here. I'd like to see it be good individually but less effective with multiple copies.

I think with a long aoe burning effect, you're talking about pressure and multiple copies just shouldn't be that effective. I'd also like to see this as 'part' of the pressure and not some single skill that you build the rest of your bar around simple to cast it. That's mindless and not 'fun'. The burning should be adding pressure while you do something else, not to cast it 2 seconds later.

I'd like to see the recharge up to 5 secs. The flat damage should be the same as immolate at all levels. The burning duration decreased by 1 sec at each level. At 16, it's about 150 damage overall.

Kron Kronitius · Jan 28, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

My main question is why everyone seems to be anti-searing flames. There are numerous skills across multipule classes that will shut down a searing flames elementalist, most of which actually have multipule purposes for being on your skill bar.

Here's a list:
Spell Breaker, Restore Conditions, Frigid Armor, Purge Signet, Mend Ailment, Mend Condition, Extinguish, Mending Touch, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Assassin's Remedy, Mend Body and Soul, Resilient Was Xiko, Spirit's Gift, Wielder's Remedy, Lyric of Purification, Song of Purification, Cautery Signet, Avatar of Melandru, Vow of Silence, Disrupting Chop, Dwarven Battle Stance, Distracting Blow, Savage Shot, Incendiary Arrows, Leech Signet, Disrupting Stab, Disrupting Lunge, Distracting Shot, Shivers of Dread, Spinal Shivers, Cry of Frustration, Web of Disruption, Warmonger's Weapon, Broad Head Arrow, Choking Gas, Power Block, Power Leak, Power Spike, Power Return, Power Drain, Power Leech, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, or Shadow Form.

All of those skills either remove the condition, grant immunity to the condition, interrupt the action/spell, or grant an immunity to spell targeting.

Knowing that, why nerf one little skill? In all honesty it's not that large of a problem if people just put a little thought into a build. Yes playing a SF ele is easy, but wasn't IWAY? Was there a mass cry to nerf IWAY? Not that I recall. Why is a skill nerf'd anyway? Because people don't want to think about how to beat it, they'd rather gripe about the skill until it gets changed. Hevean forbid you have to change one skill or change the way you play because of a flavor of the month build.

What did the top guilds do when people starting playing SF eles? They created/altered their builds around it, and moved on. What does the vocal minority do about it? They gripe and whine in the forums about how overpowered it is, and how it can't be beaten, and that it needs to be changed, and, sadly, ANet gives in and nerfs the skill, thus catering to the indolent and unimaginative gamers.

Can SF be beaten? Yes. Use one of the skills I listed in your build. It's a minor modification, and the majority of the skills are NOT elite skills. Take some time to think about the metagame and adjust your build accordingly.

As for skills stacking when used by multiple characters of the same class, it happens. Is Soul Barbs over powered because it can be kept on constantly by a team of necros? Is Recurring Insecurity overpowered because a team of mesmers can keep it on you, or that a single mesmer with spamable hexes can keep it on you? Honestly, no. It's the way the skill was designed to work. There are numerous skill combinations that have excellent synergy with complimenting classes and no one raises a fuss about those.

Patrograd · Jan 28, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kron Kronitius

Can SF be beaten? Yes. Use one of the skills I listed in your build. It's a minor modification, and the majority of the skills are NOT elite skills. Take some time to think about the metagame and adjust your build accordingly.

.

Tbh, I'm not sure, looking at your posts, that you appreciate that many of the people posting on here are from top guilds. These guys aren't low rank scrubs complaining because they get owned by a skill they dont know how to counter. These guys are saying this.

a) Put searing flames into the hands of a player who really knows what he is doing, and it is lethal, practically uncounterable. Put this SF ele into a team who understand how to apply pressure tactically and strategically and it is just way too strong

b) Put SF into the hands of someone who doesnt have a clue and it is STILL a strong and dangerous skill that takes quite some resources to manage, a disproportionate amount

Therefore, it is overpowered.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 28, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kron Kronitius

Here's a list:
Spell Breaker, Restore Conditions,.......Purge Signet, Mend Ailment, Mend Condition, Extinguish, Mending Touch, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Assassin's Remedy, Mend Body and Soul, Resilient Was Xiko, Spirit's Gift, Wielder's Remedy, Lyric of Purification, Song of Purification, Cautery Signet, ........, Dwarven Battle Stance, Distracting Blow, Savage Shot, Incendiary Arrows, Leech Signet,...., Disrupting Lunge, Distracting Shot, Shivers of Dread, Spinal Shivers, Cry of Frustration, Web of Disruption, ...... Power Leak, Power Spike, Power Return, Power Drain, Power Leech, Spell Shield,.....Shadow Form.

In the quote I left all the skills that do absolute shit against Searing Flames. Ironically in your list of counters you left out the best counter: Diversion.

Condition removal != counter to SF. especially if it has a 20 second recharge.

Interrupts =! counter to searing flames.

You left out the one interrupt besides Power Block (the buffed one with a 20 sec recharge that is) that can actually do something against SF: Psychic Distraction. Go figure.

Frigid Armor != counter to Searing Flames. You would need to bring it on almost everyone on your team in order to make a difference. That means an ele secondary and a significant investment in water magic on the majority of your team. That kinda limits the options for the rest of your team now doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kron Kronitius

Can SF be beaten? Yes. Use one of the skills I listed in your build. It's a minor modification, and the majority of the skills are NOT elite skills. Take some time to think about the metagame and adjust your build accordingly.

The skills you listed suck. And most likely you will need to modify the primary/secondary profession of several characters in your build in order to implement the skills in a good way. That is not a 'minor modification'

So yea......

Kron Kronitius · Jan 28, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

In the quote I left all the skills that do absolute shit against Searing Flames. Ironically in your list of counters you left out the best counter: Diversion.

Condition removal != counter to SF. especially if it has a 20 second recharge.

Interrupts =! counter to searing flames.

You left out the one interrupt besides Power Block (the buffed one with a 20 sec recharge that is) that can actually do something against SF: Psychic Distraction. Go figure.

Frigid Armor != counter to Searing Flames. You would need to bring it on almost everyone on your team in order to make a difference. That means an ele secondary and a significant investment in water magic on the majority of your team. That kinda limits the options for the rest of your team now doesn't it?

The skills you listed suck. And most likely you will need to modify the primary/secondary profession of several characters in your build in order to implement the skills in a good way. That is not a 'minor modification'

So yea......

If all the skills I listed are shit, then why do many players use them in PvP? Frigid Armor doesn't require any investment to shutdown a SF ele. If you're not burning when they hit you with it, and have FA up, you won't burn and they will generally leave you alone at that point and move on to a jucier target.

Most condition removal has a minimal recharge time, such as RC, Mending Touch, Mend Ailment, Mend Condition. All of these have a recharge time of less than 20 seconds.

And yes, I missed a few skills in my list, but I never claimed that it was a complete list of skills to counter a SF ele.

As far as changing your profession. You honestly mean to tell me that you don't have a character that is or has a secondary of monk, mesmer, elementalist, paragon, assassin, warrior, dervish, ranger, or ritualist. All that leaves is playing a necromancer, which has a skill that transfers conditions, at a range of touch, to a foe. What team doesn't use monks? Why are RC prot monks so popular? Elementalist are very popular, as are dervishes, mesmsers, assassins, warriors, and paragons. Any team build can be modified to counter Searing Flames.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 28, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

dude...your energy pool is going to curse at you, hard, if you're removing the condition every time it is applied. That's not a viable counter.

Frigid Armor lasts 10 seconds with 0 water magic (12 with a 20% mod) and has a 22% recycle. So yeah, it does require a significant investment in order to be effective.

And yes, I found it quite ironic that you tried to list the counters to SF and left out the best ones.

But regardless. Counters to something are hardly an argument in if a skill is overpowered or not. Like I said in the Bsurge thread, I guess you think the old Ether Renewal wasn't overpowered because you could bring enchant removal, Energizing Finale wasn't overpowered because you could bring Vocal Minority, Nature's Renewal wasn't overpowered because you could just not bring hexes and enchants (guess what..people didn't. Because of NR. And still it was overpowered.), Chain Lightning wasn't overpowered because you could bring 3 copies of Protective Spirit and Infuse, Spirit Spam wasn't overpowered because you could interrupt the spirits, Gale warriors weren't overpowered because you could bring Balanced Stance (oh wait...you can interrupt it too! why did they ever nerf that?)...I could go on.
Fact is, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Riotgear · Jan 28, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

In the quote I left all the skills that do absolute shit against Searing Flames. Ironically in your list of counters you left out the best counter: Diversion.

You mean Signet of Humility. Or even good 'ol Grenth, burn those attunements off and their energy managements goes bye bye.

Patrograd · Jan 28, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Or even good 'ol Grenth, burn those attunements off and their energy managements goes bye bye.

Thats the way

Counter the overpowered stuff with more overpowered stuff. Result: overpowered meta, ridiculously powerful builds all blasting the hell out of each other. Who needs tactics? Lets just stick up our grenth and roll them fast or get rolled by THEIR grenth and SF

Well, its what we do anyway

Not much fun mind you...

Kron Kronitius · Jan 29, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

My point here is that for every skill and every build, there is an effective counter. All it takes is a little time, thought and effort to look at the skill or build and see what works against it. IMO, if more people thought about what works well, and what works well against it, the game would be fine instead of turning into a battle of nerfs, which is where it's headed.

Symbol · Jan 29, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Just a question-Do you think everyone but you is retarded?

Because that's the implicit assumption behind your "learn2counter" line.