Curse

Gaile Gray · Jan 21, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

After the first full day of testing across the regions and around the world, we’d like to give you some updates on how things are going. Skills report in the skills forums; HA report here.

Regarding Heroes’ Ascent:

First of all, we see a lot of comments about party size. We’re very aware that many would like a change to 8v8, and that may happen. The team is discussing that very seriously and the decision has not been made and should not be predicted based on this weekend’s event. No ‘Oh noes!” here, please.  We need to test these changes first, to appraise them accurately with the current party size. Honestly, that’s all it is: Sequential testing with differing variables.

Secondly, there is concern expressed in some threads that there may be an exploit that allows easy kill stealing. That is emphatically not accurate. Here’s how kill credit works: In order to be awarded a kill, you must have inflicted the majority of the damage to the player in the last 10 seconds of his/her life. This means that kill stealing is difficult to pull off since a player has to be sitting at low life for a long time before a different team could steal the kill.

Lastly, these changes were based on months of preparation and were aided by discussions with a large number of HA players. They were tested and retested, and the decision to test on a larger scale was welcomed by those working on HA updates because it will furnish them with so much additional, valuable input. Designers are reading forum threads, engaging in discussions, playing HA themselves—all to better assess the first round of potential changes. You see a few comments on the boards like, “they made these changes to please PvEers and newbs” and honestly, that not at all the case. The designers involved most directly with HA testing stated emphatically that these potential changes were not designed to cater to any particular group. Designers will continue to discuss these changes both internally and externally well before the second round of changes takes place.

Thanks again for your feedback. We welcome your continued comments, analysis, and suggestions! Remember there are threads for HA changes that furnishes a means to collect most of the bullet-point analysis that is so helpful and you're welcome to post narrative comments in other threads, by all means!

Zinger314 · Jan 21, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Secondly, there is concern expressed in some threads that there may be an exploit that allows easy kill stealing. That is emphatically not accurate. Here’s how kill credit works: In order to be awarded a kill, you must have inflicted the majority of the damage to the player in the last 10 seconds of his/her life. This means that kill stealing is difficult to pull off since a player has to be sitting at low life for a long time before a different team could steal the kill.

Does degen = damage, in that case? Otherwise, it's pointless; Degeneration Teams will suffer too many kill-steals.

lishi · Jan 21, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

the kill count build favor too much AoE build.

even if you change the maps so you can spread out you still have to hope the 3th team aren't dump enough to spread out.

Randomway Ftw · Jan 21, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

While appreciate the fact that ANET actually did something, the fact is the changes are unwanted, it seems like ANET is overthinking things, when simply changing back to 8v8 and reverting map changes would do the job.

ANET is favoring a specific group of people and those people do not play HA, to say otherwise is bs, I've read the thread on the guild hall and it appears that these changes have been taken from there.

ANET listened to the holding builds this holding builds that, whine, but when this arguement is put under the microscope it easily collapses.

Not impressed Anet.

Tidus the one · Jan 21, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

the kill count build favor too much AoE build.

even if you change the maps so you can spread out you still have to hope the 3th team aren't dump enough to spread out.

I strongly agreed with lishi on this "kill-steal" issue. Players can use AoE damage to steal kills from other groups. For example, there are Team A, B, and C. Team A deals 90% of the damage to Team B, Team C comes in and "AoE" Team B. I think that the old Altar map is better than this Deathmatch. In the old Altar Map, players used strategy to cap and work with each other to interrupt the Ghostly Hero. This is fun, but the new map does not allow people to use any strategy besides "kill steal" and click buttons to kill other players(might as well put back scarred earth).

Ever since the third chapter of guild wars came out, i was very excited of the new builds and professions, but why reduce the party size from 8 players to 6 players? I mean... if new professions are added, it would be logical to expand the party size, not restrict it. New professions allow for many many different combination of builds, but 6 players-party size restricts Heroe's Ascent Players to play only a few particular build. The best thing thing now is to change everything back to normal, including maps, but just fix a few skills. You can ask any high-ranked players in HA and they will say the same thing, I guaranteed. But, I appreciate the Anet's team for doing this build testing. Thank You.

Infectious · Jan 21, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Secondly, there is concern expressed in some threads that there may be an exploit that allows easy kill stealing. That is emphatically not accurate. Here’s how kill credit works: In order to be awarded a kill, you must have inflicted the majority of the damage to the player in the last 10 seconds of his/her life. This means that kill stealing is difficult to pull off since a player has to be sitting at low life for a long time before a different team could steal the kill.

Since when has dealing the most damage in the last 10 seconds ever had the biggest impact on scoring a kill?
There are way to many things to consider when scoring a kill.
Heres an example
My team (blue) shuts down both of yellows monks, red scores a free kill while we line up our victim.
How is this fair. Basically if you continue to keep this up, you will never see any pressure type build in HA again as it will be a spike in every way shape and form.
As far as me and many others are concerned Anet is forcing us to play a spike. This is guildwars, not buildwars which is what you seemingly want to turn it into if these changes are to stay. Some NEW maps would be nice, but there was never anything wrong with the mechanics of alter maps.

Wika Sham · Jan 21, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

I really do appreciate the attempt at changing and overall its very good. But instead of increasing diversity in HA all thats really been done is decreased it. All I see in HA now mostly is spikes. Spikes such as Sandstorm+Savanah Heat+Dervishes or 3 Sandsotrms+AoG Dervish etc. All it is now is spikes.

Tiyuri · Jan 21, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Alters need to be 1v1, the ganking and kill stealing going on is BAD.

And whilst you say kill stealing works on majority of damage, perhaps that's how it was intended, but it doesn't work properly if that's the case.

This is probably related to the same bug that's been around for a LONG time with ghostly heroes, if you do 90% of the damage to a ghostly hero through degen and another team hits it and finishes it off, they get the morale, the same applies here.

This isn't the only problem though, it's totally flawed whilst its a 3 person map, as one team always gets ganked at the start, and that team will probably lose if the other two teams are competent.

lyra_song · Jan 21, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Alters need to be 1v1, the ganking and kill stealing going on is BAD.

And whilst you say kill stealing works on majority of damage, perhaps that's how it was intended, but it doesn't work properly if that's the case.

This is probably related to the same bug that's been around for a LONG time with ghostly heroes, if you do 90% of the damage to a ghostly hero through degen and another team hits it and finishes it off, they get the morale, the same applies here.

This isn't the only problem though, it's totally flawed whilst its a 3 person map, as one team always gets ganked at the start, and that team will probably lose if the other two teams are competent.

like that maybe?

dies like fish · Jan 21, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

like that maybe?

I think this would be a very nice idea if there was no time limit in HoH.

Bankai · Jan 21, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

To the one who said altars weren't broken: Yes they were. They were horribly broken.

However, I indeed noticed degen has a lot of problems getting kills. We made a build based on Quicksand yesterday, with 2 trappers, 1 apply poison ranger and 1 warrior. While the others were around 16 kills, we were stuck at 4.

Julen · Jan 21, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

To the one who said altars weren't broken: Yes they were. They were horribly broken.

Just saying they were broken doesnt add much to the discussion. If you feel they weren't working properly then explain how.

Even though altar maps had their downsides (shift to defensive meta), they were still alot of fun as they required most tactics to win. interrupt a specific target at a specific time, block another target at the same time, trying to shut down another, and at the same time trying to get your ghost up the altar to cap. Thats what HA has been all about since the beginning. Why change it?

AYss · Jan 21, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

First of all, we see a lot of comments about party size. We’re very aware that many would like a change to 8v8, and that may happen.

Thank god and let's hope...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In order to be awarded a kill, you must have inflicted the majority of the damage to the player in the last 10 seconds of his/her life. This means that kill stealing is difficult to pull off since a player has to be sitting at low life for a long time before a different team could steal the kill.

Sounds nice... Only I'm afraid it won't work too well. It's all about who got bigger and faster recharging spike, or more AoE. What about all the pressure/degen teams? You see... When team#1 is pressing team#2's backline I think that a kill scored by team#3 on team#2 is a kill steal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Designers are reading forum threads, engaging in discussions, playing HA themselves—all to better assess the first round of potential changes.

Keep up good work guys

. I may not agree with some changes proposed in this weekend, but I definately agree that changes are needed.

Hephaistion · Jan 21, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Even if the kill award system is fairer then it seems it is still inherently flawed. It does not solve the problem that if you use a character such as a mesmer to shutdown a monk that the thirth team will be able to kill targets easier for you. The only team kill count promotes is high damage aoe build and spikes aided by the damage bonus of the altar.

All subtleties such as degen, lifesteal and pressure is lost. It actually makes you lose these maps.

Sir Vengence VI · Jan 21, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

true to that

Infectious · Jan 21, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

To the one who said altars weren't broken: Yes they were. They were horribly broken.

No, they weren't broken.
With 8 people, taking the alter was nowhere near the mission it has been since 6v6 came out.
Song of concentration made capping a walk in the park which also helped shift the holding builds into "ultra defence" rather than taking a medicore defence and sufficent shutdown, as you could no longer shut the ghostly down and you were forced into keeping it alive to hold.

coleslawdressin · Jan 21, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Kill count maps still are not working well.. In fact they are so bad that we couldn't even notice that there was any sort of system in place. I am not convinced that the game is taking degen or lifesteal into account properly either. At the very least Broken Tower should go back to 1v1. I would rather get a "no opposing party" once or twice and wait for a match in UW or Burial, than skip to Broken just to fill the third team.

Do I get credit for blacking out a monk? How about rending a prot spirit that made the other team's dervishes or fireballs do full damage? Is EoE damage counted? Deep Wound? I don't see how you can just say it is working OK.

I still say give a point every minute that you hold the altar in 3-way. I also don't understand there being no DP and would like to see that gone.

Tiyuri · Jan 21, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

Kill count maps still are not working well.. In fact they are so bad that we couldn't even notice that there was any sort of system in place. I am not convinced that the game is taking degen or lifesteal into account properly either. At the very least Broken Tower should go back to 1v1. I would rather get a "no opposing party" once or twice and wait for a match in UW or Burial, than skip to Broken just to fill the third team.

Do I get credit for blacking out a monk? How about rending a prot spirit that made the other team's dervishes or fireballs do full damage? Is EoE damage counted? Deep Wound? I don't see how you can just say it is working OK.

I still say give a point every minute that you hold the altar in 3-way. I also don't understand there being no DP and would like to see that gone.

Yeah there are just too many things to take into account in terms of "what killed someone" to start choosing who gets the points. The only way to solve this imo is to go 1v1. Otherwise all forms of shutdown, degen pressure, applying conditions like dazed and so forth will be completely useless.

Damus · Jan 21, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Broken Tower altar map time remaining is too long. The majority of the time in that map was spent waiting and picking off an overextended target until around 3-4 minutes, when the action started. I recommend shortening down the time to 5 minutes or less.

leguma · Jan 21, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

The solutions are really simple:
-Broken Tower: Keep the kill count but make it a 1on1 with a 5 minute timer.
-Scarred Earth: Bring it back and make it a Kill count with 5 minutes for the initial fight, and another 5 minutes for the fight between the two winners (also implies removing the lever).
-Courtyard: Make this an altar cap map, it's big, has lot of alternate ways to reach every location and there is no reason why altar cap should only be present in the HoH.

-HoH Kill Count: have the two contestants fight it out for 5 minutes and then have the winner take on the holders for another 5 minutes.