Curse

leguma · Jan 31, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

How about

Wild Blow:
Lose all adrenaline. Any Stance being used by your target ends. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit.

I can't say that I've ever seen any Wars use this skill to get past enchantments/weapon spells/wards... So this would pretty much leave it intact as a stance removal + criitcal hit afterwards, but make it totally useless for Grenths.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 31, 2007, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

How about

Wild Blow:
Lose all adrenaline. Any Stance being used by your target ends. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit.

I can't say that I've ever seen any Wars use this skill to get past enchantments/weapon spells/wards... So this would pretty much leave it intact as a stance removal + criitcal hit afterwards, but make it totally useless for Grenths.

It wouldn't exactly leave it intact as stance removal, because you're going to have a hard time removing defensive stances. Granted, these stances don't see a lot of play but then I think that might be because of Wild Blow.
IMO the 'cannot be blocked or evaded' part is more essential to Wild Blow than the critical hit.

leguma · Jan 31, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

It wouldn't exactly leave it intact as stance removal, because you're going to have a hard time removing defensive stances. Granted, these stances don't see a lot of play but then I think that might be because of Wild Blow.
IMO the 'cannot be blocked or evaded' part is more essential to Wild Blow than the critical hit.

Perhaps the game-like wording did not make this entirely clear. If you read that description again, you will notice that the loose stance part comes after the loose all adrenaline one and is in no way subjective to actually hitting the target. Even if the target had a stack of Displacement, Guardian, Shield of Deflection and Wirling Defences, it would still loose the stance, even if your attack was blocked/evaded.

Makkert · Jan 31, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Don't ban Necropotence, it's these Dark Rituals that are the real culprits!

Peace,
-CxE

I pinked a tear here laughing and remembering those old times...

Ironicly, in the end, Dark Ritual was taken out of the core set, which later enabled the return of Hypnotic Specter, so it wasn't exactly the example of innocence

....

But I digress...

Thomas.knbk · Jan 31, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Perhaps the game-like wording did not make this entirely clear. If you read that description again, you will notice that the loose stance part comes after the loose all adrenaline one and is in no way subjective to actually hitting the target. Even if the target had a stack of Displacement, Guardian, Shield of Deflection and Wirling Defences, it would still loose the stance, even if your attack was blocked/evaded.

How do you know this? you can't test it, because atm it's unblockabe/unevadable

Makkert · Jan 31, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

How do you know this? you can't test it, because atm it's unblockabe/unevadable

I think he is extrapolating. most skills work in the order that they are written, and he placed this tidbit over the template wording of Wild Blow.

But skilldescriptions isn't traditionally one of ANet's stronger points. They have gotten better at it, but I wouldn't hold my hand in the fire for them.

leguma · Jan 31, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

How do you know this? you can't test it, because atm it's unblockabe/unevadable

That's a rather stupid question. If they remake the skill so that it matches the description that I gave, it WILL work that way. Skills that do various things normally do it in the order listed, much like effects on you reslove from left to right (unless they have a temporal priority). If the loose stance clause of the skill is unconditional, it will always happen. If it comes before the if it hits it crits part, it will always happen before it.

If you are asking wether this would be possible from a programing/game engine point of view, the anser is yes, beecause if you look at skills like Needling Shot you will notice that it recharges instantly if the target you used it on is under half health. It can be blocked, evaded, hell, you can even be blind and it will still instantly recharge if the target you used it on was under half health. Just look at Shadow Prism, the teleport goes through no matter what, and HexBreaker has no effect on it.

Wild Blow:
Lose all adrenaline. Any stance being used by your target ends. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit.

Basically, what would happen behind the scene would be:
- you loose all adrenaline (always happens unconditionally)
- your target looses a stance (always happens unconditionally)
- your chance to critical is raised to 100% for your next hit (regardless of whether the attack is successful or not)

The stance removal aspect of the skill would be the same as always. The one big difference would be that this skill would then become useless for always getting a hit through enchantments or weapon spells or spirits or whatnot, however, I think that the instances of Warriors actually using this skill for this purpose are neglijable.

MAdnRisKy · Jan 31, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

The problem with wild blow is how damned spammable it is. You can fire off an unavoidable hit every 4 seconds. The down side of which, you can never ever spike because you won't build up adrenaline. This is so mch of a downside, you'd rather just swing and miss and chance your luck again (unless you were spiking, then you'd be gutted, so we bring drain and shatter and job's a goodun).

In other words its not desperately attractive. Its only become so because it now also always removes enchants, and yes, if it didn't do this, it probably wouldn't feature on my grenth's bar.

There is no other such spammable enchant removal in the game, grenth is broken, ok move on ,but a lot of the defences against it, like guardian or aegis can't be used because of this skill in combination.

here's my suggestion as to how to fix the skill, sort the recharge out. Its how other skills have been very effectively balanced before.

So move it to strength and tie the recharge to the attribute. So at 9 or 10 strength its recharging in about 5 seconds, but with no points, its more like 20.

And I honestly think that would solve a lot of the problem...

Lucky_ · Jan 31, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

If I remeber correctly, if you're blind and miss your target with wild blow, stance is not removed.

Also, grenth at the moment has exactly two choices - wild blow to negate blocks and evasions, and become enormously vulnerable to blindspam, or sight beyod sight to negate blindspam (mostly) while becoming vulnerable to blocks and evades. You obiviously cannot choose both, which always leave you vulnerable to something.

gobla · Jan 31, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

How do you know this? you can't test it, because atm it's unblockabe/unevadable

At the moment Wild Blow is worded like this:

Lose all adrenaline. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit and any Stance being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be "blocked" or "evaded."

The Stance ending needs a hit. Her wording is like this:

Lose all adrenaline. Any Stance being used by your target ends. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit.

The Stance ending doesn't need a hit. The stance ends before you hit. Thus you will still hit through stances. You only won't hit through enchantments.

Wich I believe is the whole point of this debate: Keeping Wild Blow as an effective means of removing stances while preventing it from being combined with Grenth for enchantment removal.

The only thing that remains is the Critical Hit damage for scythes. I however don't think this is too much of an issue. Changing the crit part will destroy the skill. Making it based on strenght will destroy it as well. This simply is one of those skills to take Warrior secondary. Just like mending touch for gankers, most monks will want to carry condition removal that works very well on others as well. Nothing wrong with that.

Patrick Smit · Jan 31, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

it should just be usable by warriors, or at least according the description. Rest of the classes should have less of an advantage making for example the avoidability depending on strength, 1 or 2 strength is enough ^^. I hardlys use stances in pvp as they can be canceled so easily. If only warriors could do it in such an effective way, then i would possibly reconsider.

Domon Kasho · Jan 31, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

i agree with WB being left alone or having the crit chance linked to strength but at the same time i still say that the grenth is what needs a second look from anet.WB has been fine forever lets not let a expasion class ruin it.

Sliver Queen+Gaea's Cradle=fun times

Shendaar · Jan 31, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Wild Blow:
Lose all adrenaline. Any stance being used by your target ends. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit.

Basically, what would happen behind the scene would be:
- you loose all adrenaline (always happens unconditionally)
- your target looses a stance (always happens unconditionally)
- your chance to critical is raised to 100% for your next hit (regardless of whether the attack is successful or not)

This is the best solution in my opinion. It leaves the skill intact as a stance removal and effectively neutralize its crazy effect when comboed with Grenth. Without WB, I can see the entire Grenth Dervish build becoming much easier to deal with, while still being effective enough to be worth using.

Patccmoi · Jan 31, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

This is the best solution in my opinion. It leaves the skill intact as a stance removal and effectively neutralize its crazy effect when comboed with Grenth. Without WB, I can see the entire Grenth Dervish build becoming much easier to deal with, while still being effective enough to be worth using.

It does make Wild Blow kinda uncounterable as stance removal though. Because even if the warrior/derv is blind, Wild Blow would still remove the stance. Not only you can't block against it, but you wouldn't even have the option of making it miss anymore. Might not be a huge issue, but i can't say i like it that much.

leguma · Jan 31, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

It does make Wild Blow kinda uncounterable as stance removal though. Because even if the warrior/derv is blind, Wild Blow would still remove the stance. Not only you can't block against it, but you wouldn't even have the option of making it miss anymore. Might not be a huge issue, but i can't say i like it that much.

Yes, that would allow Wild Blow to remove stances even through blind. That having been said, other than the RA/AB scenario where monks bring Throw Dirt, how is that going to be any problem in competitive PvP?
Yes, ideally, the skill should not have to suffer any changes, but, other than giving it a symbolic req 2 Strength to limit its use on non wars (something that has been opposed in many posts for some reason I cannot fathom) I just can't see any other way of preventing Grenth abuse.

lilnate22 · Jan 31, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

i got it...
wild blow (str)
all stances used by foe ends,this blow cannot be blocked or evaded and has a 50-100% of being critical

and links it so that u only need like say3-4 str so its at 100% crit

this way u save it from grenth dervs

Seef II · Jan 31, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobla

Lose all adrenaline. Any Stance being used by your target ends. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit.

Should Wild Blow cancel a defensive stance, and you are not Blind, under Blurred Vision, and the target isn't blocking/evading otherwise, etc. the attack will hit just as it does now. Doesn't do that much to fix the problem and now if you miss, the stance is still cancelled, which is usually a non-issue though.

kvndoom · Jan 31, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Leave Wild Blow alone. It's perfect as it is.

or 15...63 seconds, whenever you use a Scythe attack Skill, you also remove 1 Enchantment from your target, and your attacks deal cold damage. This Skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Emphasis mine. Wild Blow + Grenth problem goes away. Then Guardian, Aegis, Wards, etc aren't stripped by WB. It'll still hit for a crit if used, but it won't remove any enchants, and Prot Spirit, SoA, etc, will still counter the damage.

While yes, it does suck that WB is more useful for a non-Warrior than a Warrior, we knew things like this would happen when Anet introduced melee classes with 4 energy pips and zero adrenaline based skills. I was against adding another melee class when I heard Factions would have Assassins, because even after the first year, FAR too many people couldn't play Warrior worth a damn, and the Assassin would become a "paper tank" in the hands of >75% of the people who played it because all they know is "Leeee-roy."

I knew from the PVP test weekend last summer/fall that Dervishes would be a persistent problem. Sand Shards being nerfed after day one, the 20-second flawless wins in TA with four CoP Dervs... there was no doubt that this would be a problem class to balance, and 3 months after retail release, Dervishes are still out of balance.

Ensign · Jan 31, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I don't understand why this conversation is still going as though it were remotely relevant. D/W Grenthers aren't even the most dangerous sorts in competitive PvP - D/Rt with Sight Beyond Sight has been the gold standard for some time. I don't know what game the rest of you are playing, but Wild Blow is not a problem in any sense in Guild Wars.

Peace,
-CxE

RotteN · Feb 01, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18

like ensign said, wild blow won't do you any good if you're blinded all the time, so running a D/W grenth is rather stupid, cause you can be 100% sure you're gonna be at the receiving end of all the melee hate the other team has, and blind still is the most popular melee counter.