Curse

Thomas.knbk · Jan 18, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Spin-off from the Avatar of Grenth thread, so we can keep that one about Avatar of Grenth.

kvndoom · Jan 18, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Please, please leave it alone. This skill has been fine for 1 1/2 years. Fix Grenth, leave the core skills alone! While Watch Yourself was seldom used anyway, seeing it get nerfed because of Paragon abuse still hurt me deeply.

The irony is that WB is only detrimental to its owning class. Only a Warrior depends on melee + adrenaline. Assassins use WB and get up to 3 energy back since it's a guaranteed critical. Dervishes don't need adrenaline either, and a crit from a scythe is VERY painful.

If anything, I think they should make it 10 energy to prevent heavy Warrior abuse (but they could still use it as intended when needed), but remove the "lose all adrenaline" penalty so it won't be a detriment to the class it belongs to and no one else. But leave everything else alone. Fix the broken Nightfall shit, leave the core skills alone.

Ensign · Jan 18, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

"Watch Yourself!" was nerfed in response to the *massive buff* it got from the AoE change that came with the introduction of Paragons. It was not the same shitty skill it had been for a year and a half when it was nerfed.

I don't see anything wrong with Wild Blow. I'm happy to see it being played heavily in fact, its presence has a good effect on the metagame.

Peace,
-CxE

Arshay Duskbrow · Jan 18, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

As I said in the Grenth thread, I'm largely in favor of leaving it alone as well. The only thing you could do to it without completely ruining it would be removing the "always critical" component, and even that isn't necessary. It's Core, leave it be.

Though while we're on the subject of complaining about changes to Core skills, what the hell happened with Debilitating Shot? That came completely out of nowhere.

Vermilion · Jan 19, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Debilitating must have gotten too common. Also, the fact that you can run it on any ranger was weird. An oathshot trapper or a spirit spammer could bring Debil. shot and get more use out of it then a ranger actually specced into markmanship.

Divineshadows · Jan 19, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arshay Duskbrow

Though while we're on the subject of complaining about changes to Core skills, what the hell happened with Debilitating Shot? That came completely out of nowhere.

Are you talking about the nerf a while ago to debilitating shot? Cause it used to be -10 energy to the target no matter how much marksmanship you had (I believe the skill was actually unlinked if I remember correctly). It took a long time to catch on, but players finally discovered just how good that skill was in condition heavy builds. Some builds even put it on oath shot rangers (that typically run zero in marksmanship) to get even more out of the skill.

It's still a good skill if you're running high enough marksmanship to get the skill to deny 8 or 9 energy (i.e. pretty much any burning arrow ranger should run it), but obviously not quite as strong or accessible as it used to be.

LoyalSoldier · Jan 19, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

I for one believe Wild Blow can stay as it is. If it wasn't for all the Dark Escape monks and other assorted goodies that people use for stances it wouldn't be worth anything. You have to have some way to remove stances and so far there are only a few other options.

Franco Power · Jan 19, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Wild blow is fine, It's [skill]Avatar Of Grenth[/skill] that needs adjusting dont confuse yourself.

twicky_kid · Jan 19, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

I think Wild blow simply limits the meta game. There is no chance for stance to every become powerful simply because this skill exist.

Block and Evade has been nulled down to Aegis in competitive play. Even without grenth this skill will still be used to get a guaranteed critical on spikes.

The skill has lose all adrenaline for a reason. If you remove that clause it becomes too powerful which is exactly what a dervish does. For a dervish this is no draw back and 0 attribute investment.

I can understand having skills that can remove stances to keep them in check. Anything that prevents another skill type from being played at all in my book needs to be nerfed. It was the exact reason NR was nerfed. It was so good at removing enchants and hexes there was no point in even running them.

tomcruisejr · Jan 19, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Wild Blow is fine on a Warrior coz of the obvious negative effect.

but on a character which holds the strongest weapon in game and has no adrenaline skills, hmmmm?

i think scythe skills should be all adrenaline based ftw?

on related topic, Avatar of Grenth is overpowered if you use Life Bond and Life Barrier for your prot.

Vermilion · Jan 19, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

I suppose if you really wanted to nerf wb on non wars, just make it miss with strength 4 or less.

Ensign · Jan 19, 2007, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

There is no chance for stance to every become powerful simply because this skill exist.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Block and Evade has been nulled down to Aegis in competitive play.

Previously it was limited to Aegis and Distortion. Distortion was since nerfed. Wild Blow has hence pushed no block/evade skills from the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Even without grenth this skill will still be used to get a guaranteed critical on spikes.

A skill that does nothing more than guarantee a critical is really, really weak for spiking. Normal speed attacks need lots of +damage or Deep Wound to be attractive spike options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Anything that prevents another skill type from being played at all in my book needs to be nerfed.

What stances do you think should be played, but are not being played because of Wild Blow Dervishes? As far as I know, there aren't any, and you're just arguing about skills and a metagame that don't exist.

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Jan 19, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Block and Evade has been nulled down to Aegis in competitive play

Actually what i see nowadays is wards. Aegis is limited in the current metagame because of Grenths.

One suggestion i liked about Wild Blow is linking it to strength with 'you get +0..75% chances to critical hit'. Adding that instead of 'this skill results in a critical hit' would make it so that only warriors can really get a sure crit out of it while other classes could still use it for stance removal.

If you want to keep the 'punishing' aspect of using it, it could also be something like 'lose all adrenaline. If you have no adrenaline skill equipped, lose 5 energy'.

But all in all i think the skill is still fine. It's really Grenth abusing it that makes it so strong (and that's cause of Grenth, not Wild Blow). It's still a skill not giving any +damage, which means that Armor buffs (WY!, Stand your Ground!) or Weakness can seriously lower its offensive capacity. Weakness was a poor counter to warriors, which get most of their damage from +damage and DW during spikes, but for Dervishes (non-Melandru anyway) it's actually a very good counter since their main offensive strength is raw damage and if you cut that by 66% they're not doing much pressure at all.

Ensign · Jan 19, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Actually what i see nowadays is wards.

Namely, Ward Against Foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

It's really Grenth abusing it that makes it so strong (and that's cause of Grenth, not Wild Blow).

Don't ban Necropotence, it's these Dark Rituals that are the real culprits!

Peace,
-CxE

Winstar · Jan 19, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Namely, Ward Against Foes.

Don't ban Necropotence, it's these Dark Rituals that are the real culprits!

Peace,
-CxE

qft

Man, I loved necro...

If you took away wb do you really think the grenth would then be balanced?

Xenex Xclame · Jan 19, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

One suggestion i liked about Wild Blow is linking it to strength with 'you get +0..75% chances to critical hit'. Adding that instead of 'this skill results in a critical hit' would make it so that only warriors can really get a sure crit out of it while other classes could still use it for stance removal.

When i first read the suggestion in the other thread i was gonna answer that dont like the idea since i saw it as the same suggestion of making it fail at strength 4 or less.

After looking it again i have changed my mind , your right, if it was done this way there would still be a way for non wars derv or ranger going melee or any class going melee for that fact, to be able to take away the stance, its just that the critical is only for warrriors.

So basicly the skill should be used to removed a stance not really for the damage, the critical should just be a bonus ( for warriors)

Patrograd · Jan 19, 2007, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

One suggestion i liked about Wild Blow is linking it to strength with 'you get +0..75% chances to critical hit'. Adding that instead of 'this skill results in a critical hit' would make it so that only warriors can really get a sure crit out of it while other classes could still use it for stance removal.

I quite like this suggestion.

it seems to me that the balance in this skill is centered around the "lose all adrenaline" part, meaning that if you are running a warrior, then typically you dont want to be spamming it too much, as you need your adrenaline (obviously). I think that its proper usage on a warrior with adrenaline skills is actually quite a skilled thing, to find a stance that needs removing and take it off at such a time as to not compromise your pressure/spike ability at a key time while simultaneously managing your meagre 2 pips of energy. It seems to me that this is the way the skill was designed

On a dervish though there is no skill in its usage. if it removes a stance its a bonus, they are just using it for the auto crit and spamming it on recharge. They dont need to think about adrenaline loss, they dont need to think about energy, You know as a dervish that as long as your arent blinded/blurred, that pressing this button will inflict 80 damage plus, guaranteed, regardless of what the target does to prot themselves, and you can do it every few seconds. I cant believe this is what was intended by the designers.

I guess therefore that the argument is over whether that is acceptable to make dervishes viable melee characters (assuming the avatars get a big nerf) or whether that is too strong. Certainly without a heavy nerf to avatars it is overpowered, as it is also a guaranteed enchant removal.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 19, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

When i first read the suggestion in the other thread i was gonna answer that dont like the idea since i saw it as the same suggestion of making it fail at strength 4 or less.

After looking it again i have changed my mind , your right, if it was done this way there would still be a way for non wars derv or ranger going melee or any class going melee for that fact, to be able to take away the stance, its just that the critical is only for warrriors.

So basicly the skill should be used to removed a stance not really for the damage, the critical should just be a bonus ( for warriors)

To clarify:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Wild Blow: 5e 5r
If Wild Blow hits, any stance used by your target ends. Wild Blow has an additional 0...75% to be a critical hit. (much like GftE so that at ~12 strength it would be an almost 100% chance combined with your weapon mastry) This attack cannot be blocked or evaded.

1234

twicky_kid · Jan 19, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What stances do you think should be played, but are not being played because of Wild Blow Dervishes? As far as I know, there aren't any, and you're just arguing about skills and a metagame that don't exist.

I'd agree there are not that many powerful stances that are in the meta. Even if there was this godly powerful stance it would still be useless because of Wild Blow on non adrenaline users.

That's like saying enchantments and hexes all sucked anyways so NR was fine the way it was. Wild blow on non adrenaline users will prevent stances from ever being usable unless it has a short recharge. Even then wild blow's 5r will most likely be shorter than any stance recharge. By removing an entire skill type from being used only makes the game stale and offers less diversity.

In the end necropotence was banned even after dark rits were banned.

Patccmoi · Jan 19, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

That's like saying enchantments and hexes all sucked anyways so NR was fine the way it was. Wild blow on non adrenaline users will prevent stances from ever being usable unless it has a short recharge. Even then wild blow's 5r will most likely be shorter than any stance recharge. By removing an entire skill type from being used only makes the game stale and offers less diversity.

And aren't you the one arguing that Grenth is fine if Wild Blow wasn't there? Grenth is as harsh for enchants, actually more imo, and there is MANY more enchants than stances.

I don't agree that stances are unusable. You still see Natural Stride on rangers, you still see Dark Escape, Hex Breaker and Balanced Stance on monks (DE when you get spiked, BS/Hex Breaker usually on infusers to not get knocked or diversioned/shamed during spikes), spike teams can still use Mantra of Concentration/Resolve, Warriors still use Frenzy/Rush/Sprint/Dash, etc. Wild Blow doesn't make those stances unusable and they serve their purpose most of the time.

It kinda make stances like Whirling a lot less interesting because of their recharge, but imo Whirling was never really good in GvG anyway because of that recharge, Wild Blow or not. Stances are supposed to be removable. The fact that you have to do it with an attack is already downside enough imo (blind stops it, hexes can make it miss, etc.). If you put Wild Blow on all your melee, yes the other team will have a really hard time to use stances. But you know, if you put Hex Breaker on all your chars a hex team would have a hard time doing much too. Bringing 2-3 copies of a counter to something -should- make that certain something hard to use. And going /W for Wild Blow limits what other counters or support skills those Dervs can bring.