Curse

Kron Kronitius · Jan 28, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

As I posted in previous threads about nerfing skills. Why? There are numerous skills that can counter BSurge as well as many, many other skills.
Here is a little list:

Spell Breaker, Restore Conditions, Frigid Armor, Purge Signet, Mend Ailment, Mend Condition, Extinguish, Mending Touch, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Assassin's Remedy, Mend Body and Soul, Resilient Was Xiko, Spirit's Gift, Wielder's Remedy, Lyric of Purification, Song of Purification, Cautery Signet, Avatar of Melandru, Vow of Silence, Disrupting Chop, Dwarven Battle Stance, Distracting Blow, Savage Shot, Incendiary Arrows, Leech Signet, Disrupting Stab, Disrupting Lunge, Distracting Shot, Shivers of Dread, Spinal Shivers, Cry of Frustration, Web of Disruption, Warmonger's Weapon, Broad Head Arrow, Choking Gas, Power Block, Power Leak, Power Spike, Power Return, Power Drain, Power Leech, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form, or Sight Beyond Sight.

All of those skills either remove the condition, grant immunity to the condition, interrupt the action/spell, or grant an immunity to spell targeting.

Honestly, how hard is it to use one of those skills listed in your build? Not very. Do they have other uses as well? You betcha. All it takes is a little thought and creativity to counter ANY build, or ANY skill. Why should ANet nerf skills based on people being to lazy to modify their builds or create new builds?

I am absolutely sick of hearing everyone say "Nerf XX, it's unbalanced/overpowered/unbeatable". If people actually thought about it, instead of screaming for a nerf, they would see that you can counter any build/skill.

What did the top guilds do when BSurge, and other skills, came into heavy use? They thought about it, adjusted their builds, or came up with new builds, and moved on. None of them said anything about a skill being "overpowered/unbalanced/unbeatable".

Just try adjusting your build when you run up against someone using a skill you think is overpowered/etc. You'll see that it's actually not that hard to beat.

Div · Jan 28, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kron Kronitius

As I posted in previous threads about nerfing skills. Why? There are numerous skills that can counter BSurge as well as many, many other skills.
Here is a little list:

Spell Breaker, Restore Conditions, Frigid Armor, Purge Signet, Mend Ailment, Mend Condition, Extinguish, Mending Touch, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Assassin's Remedy, Mend Body and Soul, Resilient Was Xiko, Spirit's Gift, Wielder's Remedy, Lyric of Purification, Song of Purification, Cautery Signet, Avatar of Melandru, Vow of Silence, Disrupting Chop, Dwarven Battle Stance, Distracting Blow, Savage Shot, Incendiary Arrows, Leech Signet, Disrupting Stab, Disrupting Lunge, Distracting Shot, Shivers of Dread, Spinal Shivers, Cry of Frustration, Web of Disruption, Warmonger's Weapon, Broad Head Arrow, Choking Gas, Power Block, Power Leak, Power Spike, Power Return, Power Drain, Power Leech, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form, or Sight Beyond Sight.

All of those skills either remove the condition, grant immunity to the condition, interrupt the action/spell, or grant an immunity to spell targeting.

Honestly, how hard is it to use one of those skills listed in your build? Not very. Do they have other uses as well? You betcha. All it takes is a little thought and creativity to counter ANY build, or ANY skill. Why should ANet nerf skills based on people being to lazy to modify their builds or create new builds?

I am absolutely sick of hearing everyone say "Nerf XX, it's unbalanced/overpowered/unbeatable". If people actually thought about it, instead of screaming for a nerf, they would see that you can counter any build/skill.

What did the top guilds do when BSurge, and other skills, came into heavy use? They thought about it, adjusted their builds, or came up with new builds, and moved on. None of them said anything about a skill being "overpowered/unbalanced/unbeatable".

Just try adjusting your build when you run up against someone using a skill you think is overpowered/etc. You'll see that it's actually not that hard to beat.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all. Just because there are counters or ways to remove/grant immunity to a certain skill doesn't mean that it can't be overpowered. For example, a spell could say "deal 200 damage to target foe. that foe is dazed for 30 seconds." with a recharge of 2 seconds, activation time of 1/4 sec, energy cost of 5. Every single skill in your list is a way to "counter" my created skill, but unless you're a total moron, you can see it's obviously overpowered. The case with blinding surge is not nearly as powerful, as mine is an overexaggerated example, but for an ele to be able to match a monk's energy pool 5 for 5 (with quick recharge and fast casting time for it to be hard to interrupt), while rendering an attacker useless for the time it takes to remove the blind, it's pretty overpowered.

<3 Dwarven battle stance as a way to counter blinding surge. zomg i'll interrupt you by spending 2 seconds to swing that hammer against a 3/4 cast time spell

Oh, and I love this quote especially, thanks for the noob entertainment:

Quote:

What did the top guilds do when BSurge, and other skills, came into heavy use? They thought about it, adjusted their builds, or came up with new builds, and moved on. None of them said anything about a skill being "overpowered/unbalanced/unbeatable".

Ever heard of a guild called QQ?

Plus, look at the people who posted, and I see posters from MH, pink, and NUKE, all high ranked teams.

stokey · Jan 28, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kron Kronitius

As I posted in previous threads about nerfing skills. Why? There are numerous skills that can counter BSurge as well as many, many other skills.
Here is a little list:

Spell Breaker, Restore Conditions, Frigid Armor, Purge Signet, Mend Ailment, Mend Condition, Extinguish, Mending Touch, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Assassin's Remedy, Mend Body and Soul, Resilient Was Xiko, Spirit's Gift, Wielder's Remedy, Lyric of Purification, Song of Purification, Cautery Signet, Avatar of Melandru, Vow of Silence, Disrupting Chop, Dwarven Battle Stance, Distracting Blow, Savage Shot, Incendiary Arrows, Leech Signet, Disrupting Stab, Disrupting Lunge, Distracting Shot, Shivers of Dread, Spinal Shivers, Cry of Frustration, Web of Disruption, Warmonger's Weapon, Broad Head Arrow, Choking Gas, Power Block, Power Leak, Power Spike, Power Return, Power Drain, Power Leech, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form, or Sight Beyond Sight.

All of those skills either remove the condition, grant immunity to the condition, interrupt the action/spell, or grant an immunity to spell targeting.

Honestly, how hard is it to use one of those skills listed in your build? Not very. Do they have other uses as well? You betcha. All it takes is a little thought and creativity to counter ANY build, or ANY skill. Why should ANet nerf skills based on people being to lazy to modify their builds or create new builds?

I am absolutely sick of hearing everyone say "Nerf XX, it's unbalanced/overpowered/unbeatable". If people actually thought about it, instead of screaming for a nerf, they would see that you can counter any build/skill.

What did the top guilds do when BSurge, and other skills, came into heavy use? They thought about it, adjusted their builds, or came up with new builds, and moved on. None of them said anything about a skill being "overpowered/unbalanced/unbeatable".

Just try adjusting your build when you run up against someone using a skill you think is overpowered/etc. You'll see that it's actually not that hard to beat.

How does Frigid Armor help in any way against Bsurge? Btw, most of the skills you listed can't match up with Bsurge energy-wise or recharge-wise. Using extinguish to take it off will be using 15 energy for a 5 energy skill. To take the blind off 2-3 warriors would make pretty much anything you listed there not match up energy-wise. Interrupts are unwieldy, especially against a 3/4 cast time. You'd need to babysit someone on the guy if you wanted to catch him and it wouldn't be worth the risk since he could just use it again after it was interrupted (again, most interrupts don't match up recharge-wise). Distracting shot/stab/chop, disrupting lunge, and the dazes are the only things that would pose a major threat against the Bsurge guy out of the interrupts in your list. Diversion is more of a threat against Bsurge than most of the stuff you have in your list. Then again...your list has a bunch of crap skills in it anyway.

Top guilds do complain about overpowered skills. Have you not read through this thread? I know of at least one person from a top guild who has posted in this thread. These guilds either do counter it or use it. Sometimes they do both. These guilds use it and they know it's overpowered.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 28, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kron Kronitius

Spell Breaker, Restore Conditions, Frigid Armor, Purge Signet, Mend Ailment, Mend Condition, Extinguish, Mending Touch, Purge Conditions, Purge Signet, Assassin's Remedy, Mend Body and Soul, Resilient Was Xiko, Spirit's Gift, Wielder's Remedy, Lyric of Purification, Song of Purification, Cautery Signet, Avatar of Melandru, Vow of Silence, Disrupting Chop, Dwarven Battle Stance, Distracting Blow, Savage Shot, Incendiary Arrows, Leech Signet, Disrupting Stab, Disrupting Lunge, Distracting Shot, Shivers of Dread, Spinal Shivers, Cry of Frustration, Web of Disruption, Warmonger's Weapon, Broad Head Arrow, Choking Gas, Power Block, Power Leak, Power Spike, Power Return, Power Drain, Power Leech, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form, or Sight Beyond Sight.

Read my reply in the Searing Flames thread, it more or less applies to this as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kron Kronitius

What did the top guilds do when BSurge, and other skills, came into heavy use? They thought about it, adjusted their builds, or came up with new builds, and moved on. None of them said anything about a skill being "overpowered/unbalanced/unbeatable".

No, they saw it was overpowered so they used it.

If there is a counter to a skill, that doesn't mean the skill is not overpowered. If it is, I guess Ether Renewal wasn't overpowered because you could just remove the enchants, Energizing Finale was fine because you could use Vocal Minority, the old Chain Lightning wasn't overpowered because you could bring three copies of Protective Spirit, the old Nature's Renewal was fine becasue you could adapt your build to not have any enchantments or hexes, et cetera et cetera.
Do you really think all the aforementioned skills were fine? If you do, think again.

Phades · Jan 28, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

If there is a counter to a skill, that doesn't mean the skill is not overpowered. If it is, I guess Ether Renewal wasn't overpowered because you could just remove the enchants ... the old Nature's Renewal was fine becasue you could adapt your build to not have any enchantments or hexes, et cetera et cetera.

Natures renewal pwned ether renewal, until they unbuffed it of course.

In HA, i could see getting more mileage out of chain lightning, but it would just be easier to have a fertile seasons HP boost that wasnt all that uncommon durring air spike. Still it would require 2 more heals, but the exhaustion still piled on rather fast if you werent making kills regularly (like every use of the skill). The EF with watch yourself thing just seemed like an oops we did it again and wasnt all that well thought out, kinda like roaring winds. Not much point to roaring winds trying to slow down a paragon considering the leadership attribute, unless for whatever reason, you were trying to stop warrior primaries using fear me.

Blinding surge is more of a victim of what character is being put on opposed to the skill overal. A flash bot dom mesmer with unavoidable spike capability. There are really 3 problems going on in that situation and its not just the existance of blinding surge. Dom mesmers were strong before, then got more spike skills, then add the blinding surge defense that replaced the distortion slot and viola a recipie for complaints. Then again dervishes exist. Blinding surge on a ele, just ends up being the flag runner without heal party since the rest of the air line is grossly over priced, on a slower recharge, causes exhaustion etc. Other primaries you are likely to be wanting a different eliete anyhow, due to the primary function of the character, although i would be amused to see monks running it as their "primary" eliete.

Patccmoi · Jan 31, 2007, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Don't take it bad, but the reason people talk to you like this is because they're trying to have a serious discussion about what can be done with the skill and you're bringing a point that is severly flawed and, overall, shows inexperience and poor knowledge of competitive gameplay, and then argue repeatedly when they tell you why it's flawed.

Basically, that's the first step of people getting interested in skill balancing in one way or another, thinking 'oh but there's a counter!'. There will always be a counter to every damn skill made except if there's a .25s cast signet that does a radar-range wipe of the other team. There is TONS of hard counter skills in GW. But most are just not viable in competitive play because they are far too narrow, especially when they're elite (think Spell Breaker, though it had its glorious days in 8v8 HA where you had so much slots for utility and 3 monks that you could actually afford to bring that attrocity), or relatively easy to counter themselves (for example elite counters can always face a Sig of Humility, which could then face an interrupt, etc. The chain never ends). You can't design a build against a skill, because there is too much chances you WON'T face that skill. I mean, you can bring 3 copies of Divert Hexes and trust me no hex will ever appear broken. None. Because no damn hex will ever stick on anyone for more than 2-3s. But bringing 3 copies of Divert Hexes makes no sense at all in competitive play because if you don't face a hex build you wasted 3/8 elites that will be 100% useless in the game. So is Spoil Victor balances because Divert Hexes exists? No.

You didn't bring any new way of thinking. Everyone already thought about what you said, already had the counter list you wrote in mind (minus a few pretty ridiculous skills in there and with a couple of others added), but just know enough about competitive gameplay to know what in that list is viable and what isn't (Dwarven Battle Stance to counter BSurge? Geez. If the guy can't time his BSurge between 2 swings he's horrible), and how much you can rely on the somewhat viable counters. Some ARE viable to a decent extent, like Avatar of Melandru, or Sight beyond Sight (used with Extend Enchant on Grenth Derv) and are ran too, even though they had their own counters (like a Me/E that will Shatter Enchant on Sight just after it's applied and BSurge you afterwards. Good Me/E do it all the time). But... this severly limits the viable builds and this hurts the game a lot, and that's why people say a skill is overpowered. Because it forces the metagame too much, makes pressure builds extremely hard to play except very strict builds that can handle BSurge. Yes, those can, but it'd be nice if other builds are playable too, no?

And the last thing that seriously doesn't help you is bringing 'top guilds' in the discussion while about everyone in top guilds posting here said in some thread or other that BSurge is broken. And you come here saying 'top guilds adapt and it's fine stop whining'. Yes, top guilds adapt. Good but not top guilds adapt too. Adapting doesn't mean everything is fine though. When people just play Euro-spike because they can't pressure, they adapted, but it doesn't mean anyone actually likes the gameplay much. And it's a game, the quality of the gameplay matters, and when a skill is severly hurting the quality of the gameplay it should be changed. Not everyone should adapt and be forced into builds they dislike because a given skill is in place, not when the skill can be changed by a skill balance.

I doubt anyone will give you a more detailed explanation of why you're getting flamed, so think on it before answering that i didn't understand you too and that i can't get out of my strict way of thinking and absolute inability to think of any counter ('oh, he's using BSurge, i'll kill him with my Power Attack!!!'). People can be intolerant when someone comes, makes obvious reasoning mistakes (obvious to them anyway), and then claim that they should respect his opinion. It's like 2 adults having a conversation with a child trying to take part with arguments that make no sense. It's normal that they feel like saying 'go play elsewhere atm, you don't understand, we'll talk when you get older'. Assuming you're not a child, i think i gave you everything needed to understand here, so i'll stop, that was long enough.

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 31, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

^^ Cheers to Patccmoi, well said. I'd forgot we were even discussing B-surge at this point.

Div · Feb 02, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Wow...extremely well said Patccmoi. Too bad people like him most likely make one incoherent post and never check back again for feedback...

Thomas.knbk · Feb 02, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

10E equals dead skill?
Discuss

Divineshadows · Feb 02, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

10E equals dead skill?
Discuss

For mesmers and most other cases of using it on an /E secondary, yes. For eles, no.

Jaws Of Doom · Feb 02, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Well, it's still possible on a /E, but it turns into much more of a Gale type spell. You can no longer spam this all day long, but instead you need to find the critical times to use it, such as on a spike or when someone is close to dying from pressure. As to being worth having to slot it as your elite for limited usage though, I'm not sure if it will last on a secondary E...

Divineshadows · Feb 02, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws Of Doom

You can no longer spam this all day long, but instead you need to find the critical times to use it, such as on a spike or when someone is close to dying from pressure.

This thread is about blinding surge, right? I had to check again just to be sure after reading your post.

Patccmoi · Feb 02, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

For mesmers and most other cases of using it on an /E secondary, yes. For eles, no.

I mostly agree with that. Unless your /E can afford to use a skill slot for Air Atunement, at 10E it's gonna be too expensive. But on Ele primaries, an Air Ele with high air and Air Atune can easily use BSurge, it's just 6E for them, and the damage is interesting too when your air is high enough.

But with the nerf to Gale and buff to Channeling Rts, Air Eles seem less attractive than they ever were.

Jaws Of Doom · Feb 02, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

This thread is about blinding surge, right? I had to check again just to be sure after reading your post.

Ya, ya, I know... It's not supposed to be used like that theoretically, but you know that's how quite a few people ended up using it. Before this update, it was easy enough for someone to just sit on an enemy Warrior or Dervish and just keep button bashing to try to keep them perma-blind. While not generally effective, it was an easy way to force monks to expend more energy by continuously removing the blind if the team didn't have any other means to remove it...

With the 10 energy cost, that is no longer viable as a no-brainer job. If they wanted to keep the thinking out of it, they would need to go Ele primary, and at this point, I would really prefer a few well placed wards over a single blind...