Curse

Patccmoi · Dec 28, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

There's been some discussion about this skill and it's very likely to receive a nerf of some sort in the next update.

The thing is, what direction should the skill take?

Atm, its strengths are :

- Very spammable by any caster with 5/.75/4 and really efficient at medium air, making it perfect on any char not having a fix elite/secondary class (like Dom Mesmers)
- Ability to AOE blind, which is incredibly powerful against warrior trains or the like and more or less prevent any team using warrior trains from using team enchants (Orders, Aegis, etc.) because everything will get blind all the time
- Does some damage, as good as Lightning Strike (well, better cause of more spammable)
- Incredible skirmish skill with a fast spammable blind that also damages.

The combination of all these just make the skill problematic atm because it just does too much. It's too good in too many situations with SO little dedication to the skill (no need for big attribute investment, energy management, recharge reduction, etc.)

Now, options i see to balance the skill:

1) Just tone it down a bit. I wouldn't really like this option personally, but it could become something like:

5/.75/6, and remove AOE blind, or make it so that AOE blind lasts 1..4s

It kinda leaves the skill its versatility and current use, just possibly more balanced.

2) Remove a part of it. Drop the damage or the AOE blind.

3) Rework it. Here's an idea i like a lot personally to rework the elite to help raising the damage threat of Eles while reducing its effect a bit (stats 0..15):

10/.75/5

Target foe is struck for 15...60 lightning damage and Blinded for 3...10 seconds. If that foe is under the effects of an Enchantment, all nearby foes are also hit for 15...60 lightning damage. This Spell has 25% armor penetration.

The blind is still very spammable for an Elementalist that uses Air Atunement, but it's less of a 'free blind' for any /E. If you don't have Air Atunement, it's not really spammable anymore. I'd totally drop the AOE blind part because personally i think that's simply too good. Blind is a really hard shutdown and having it spammable in AOE is just bad imo.

To make up for the small recharge increase and energy cost, i'd go for a damage threat instead. I think Eles LACK damage threat, and this could become an interesting one. The Lightning damage in this version is actually pretty big. It's around 80 damage on 60AL at high Air. Now, having the ability to hit Nearby AOE with that can start adding serious pressure. It can allow to supplement an offense against things like Aegis for example. If they use Aegis to reduce your melee pressure, your BSurge Ele can do some pretty big AOE damage. The skill remains versatile, just that instead of being an insane shutdown + small damage it's more of a good shutdown + good damage. Weaker on /E, but it's actually something i aimed for here. I want Eles to have viable elites in their primary lines that aren't emanagement. Ele skills ARE subpar in general damage-wise and so to make a damage ele it needs to be built around its elite. Fire has Searing Flame. Air has Lightning Surge/Mind Shock for single target which is mostly nice for spikes but with BSurge like that you could make a pretty good damage/utility ele with something like BSurge-Lightning Orb-Lightning Strike-Gale-X(Aegis, Extinguish, Lightning Javelin, Deep Freeze, AoR... w/e you want)-Air Atune-GoLE-Rez using Ele skills instead of whatever can be gotten from /X.

Here's a way I'd like to see BSurge reworked personally. What others think should be done with the skill? More of just a tone down or taking out a part of its effect? Or do you think it's actually fine?

rii · Dec 28, 2006, 11:46 AM // 11:46

6s recharge/4s aoe duration....

Increasing the energy as in your second proposal would kill /E, and obviously contrary to you I think that blind on a /E is a good option if you're going to commit an elite to it - it just can't be too good.

However, you can more or less pin down 2 guys with the skill as is if you felt like it... and that's assuming you don't get any AoE effect. A 6 second recharge and a 8/9/10s duration (at high air) would make it harder to screw over entire melee teams, especially with some clarity runes thrown around. As for the AoE, it's currently the same as the original, which is a tad over the top... reduce it to somewhere around 1-4 as you said and it wouldn't be so hot.

6s recharge also nerfs /E, since they'll only be having a reasonable investment in air.. so probably only have 6/7, maybe 8s blind anyway. Ofc, that depends on build.

The damage seems OK.

twicky_kid · Dec 29, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Remove the AoE blind. I could live with its current stats without the aoe.

gasmaskman · Dec 29, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I think that your AoE damage instead of blind is a pretty good idea, and maybe increasing the energy.

Patrograd · Dec 29, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Now this is a skill I wouldnt mind seeing removed from the game to be honest. It's ridiculously powerful as a defensive tool, stopping spikes, stopping pressure, its just daft. Its not imo the duration of the blind thats the issue, or the damage, or even its AOE - its just the spammability, the fact that you can, if in defensive mode, spam this constantly and permanently and pretty much regardless of the skill and build of the other team you can effectively shut down any physical damage class you like, often more than one at a time. I'm fine with making life difficult for physical damage classes, hell it was hard even before this skill with all the physical damage hate out there - but taking them out completely?

IMHO its cost and recharge both need to be increased to prevent spammable blind. i dont mind if the damage is increased to make up for it, or the blind duration increased to punish poor condi removal, but please, please, stop this from being a spam skill that can overpower even brilliant condi removal.

*Disclaimer - I usually play melee classes :-)*

[edit] in fact, when i think about it, you ar not only taking out the physical damage with this skill, you are also taking out the person on the other team with draw conditions who is left with little option other than to permanently spam draw (usually a mesmer or necro), pretty much neglecting the other 7 skills on his bar in a desperate attempt to try and keep his warrior(s) clean, so this skill works too well on so many levels.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 29, 2006, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Blinding Surge as a damage threat kind of contradicts itself. As a blind it's a skill you want to be spamming on warriors whenever possible, but elementalists get absolutely rocked by armor so the damage on warriors won't be anything meaningful. If you make the damage high that warriors care, it ends up being too good at punching casters in the face. Skills that try to do two opposing things at once are bad skills, almost by definition.

I think it's best to accept that the damage will only ever be valuable in skirmish situations and look at B-surge for what it is - a warrior hate elite. I think 10e would balance it pretty well against warriors, along with a few seconds hit to the recharge.

Patccmoi · Dec 29, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

If you make the damage high that warriors care, it ends up being too good at punching casters in the face.

Do you think the values i put are doing that?

I mean, 60 Lightning damage with 25% AP on 100AL is still something like 47 damage. It's not much, but in Nearby AOE every 6s, it stacks. On Derv with 70-80AL, it's around 60+ damage and that starts to hurt when you receive it over and over and monks have to spend energy just healing that. On 60AL, it's 78 damage, which for an elite with 10/.75/6 seems fine.

I think honestly that it adds versatility to the skill. Makes it usable in different ways depending on what you face and make it great for pressure since you constantly do somewhat significant damage on their front line or decent damage in their backline. Can also be used for a strong spike since LOrb-BSurge would do around 200 damage on 60AL. If all you want is to spam blind and they make it 10E cost and raise the recharge, let's face it, will you run BSurge over EProdigy + BFlash? BFlash would have 4s recharge still and with EProd it's easily spammable, but EProd gives you MUCH more versatility in your build. And for any class without atunement, 10E cost is too high to spam so if you put it 10E it's likely gonna end up on Ele primary only anyway.

Not saying i'm right, but that's the way i see it =p

Riotgear · Dec 29, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Blinding Surge as a damage threat kind of contradicts itself. As a blind it's a skill you want to be spamming on warriors whenever possible, but elementalists get absolutely rocked by armor so the damage on warriors won't be anything meaningful. If you make the damage high that warriors care, it ends up being too good at punching casters in the face. Skills that try to do two opposing things at once are bad skills, almost by definition.

I suggested in the last thread on this that it get a conditional damage (and maybe even blind) trigger if the target's attacking.

With such a short recharge though, you don't neccessarily HAVE to be spamming it on warriors all the time, and could easily use it as part of a spike assist.

Patrograd · Dec 29, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

If all you want is to spam blind and they make it 10E cost and raise the recharge, let's face it, will you run BSurge over EProdigy + BFlash? BFlash would have 4s recharge still and with EProd it's easily spammable, but EProd gives you MUCH more versatility in your build.

The issue with blinding flash and prodigy is that it isnt permanently spammable - in the end the exhaustion will get you in a protracted battle if you spam it on recharge, and it is a waste, you need to time the blind to catch the spike basically.

Blinding surge doesnt have that problem imo, as it stands it is another of those mindless button masher skills that requires no player skill to make horribly effective. A good blindbot used to be hard to find, I dont think thats the case anymore

necrosfeelyaks · Dec 30, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

The issue with blinding flash and prodigy is that it isnt permanently spammable - in the end the exhaustion will get you in a protracted battle if you spam it on recharge, and it is a waste, you need to time the blind to catch the spike basically.

Blinding surge doesnt have that problem imo, as it stands it is another of those mindless button masher skills that requires no player skill to make horribly effective. A good blindbot used to be hard to find, I dont think thats the case anymore

Blinding surge is actually quite with prodigy, and used to be used a lot to combat the pressure... but think, if we HAVE to run a blindbot in every build in gvg, is it really balanced? I mean, if you dont have blind, your gona get ripped by war/derv pressure. If you take out the spammability of a blind, your gona make the meta switch closer to pressure instead of spike, because now that the blind is less spammable, why spike when you can just out pressure them and switch to a pure pressure build, and only spike if you have to. 10 nrg would ELIMINATE it from /e classes. Why do we have to eliminate its use, when its not related to the classes primary att. When you see abuse of a /x classes primary att, then yes that skill is obviously in need of change such as the derv and CoP. But its in air. I really am just gona leave this skill up for the devs to annalyze and see where it should be fit... b/c 10 nrg is a big jump, while recharge jumps are slightly less harmful (also duration, reworking times and crap in the skills).

IM bored,

GG

Patrograd · Dec 30, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by necrosfeelyaks

If you take out the spammability of a blind, your gona make the meta switch closer to pressure instead of spike, because now that the blind is less spammable, why spike when you can just out pressure them and switch to a pure pressure build, and only spike if you have to.

I think you just justified exactly why this skill needs a heavy nerf, as a change towards pressure and away from spike is exactly what the game needs, and in order for pressure to be a viable build warriors have to be able to hit things every now and then

necrosfeelyaks · Dec 31, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

hmm, it seems I did justify in kind of, but did you really get the gist of what I was saying, I want the gvgs to be balanced, so that pressure OR spike teams both would have a fair advantage in battle, im not saying dont nerf this skill, just dont overdue it. I would suggest nerfing the recharge/duration, but still have the duration viable for secondary classes, as it is not linked to the other classes primary as I pointed out earlier.

master_of_puppets · Dec 31, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

After EF nerf, this is probably the most imbalanced skill in the game right now. In GvG anyway. Ive even seen some GvG teams even have 2 copies of this. I really think they should not have this skill. There are some non-elites that might not be considered overpowered but if you make an elite out of them like B-surge and B-flash, its just too nuts. Remove this skill from the game, hehe.
For nerf, I'd say incrase energy to 10, it SHOULD kill Me/E and others so only eles can really use it. Also decrease blind from 3..9 to 1..8 for both the target and the adjacent.

JR · Dec 31, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Remove the AoE blind clause entirely, and give it a 6 second recharge.

Riotgear · Dec 31, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

For nerf, I'd say incrase energy to 10, it SHOULD kill Me/E and others so only eles can really use it.

Increasing it to 10 would simply kill the skill. Me/E wouldn't run it at all, ele primaries would just go back to prodigy/flash.

red orc · Jan 01, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Why nerf it ? There are so many counters to it right now:
signet of malice, dismiss conditions, extinguish, 3* mending, restore conditions, purge conditions, draw conditions, purge signet, ...
Why wouldn't a mes have it?
doesn't a warrior carry shadow prison, signet of malice ?
dont you see ele going with extinguish, augis, draw conditions, heal party ?
It is much more logical that a character who's whole existance is to shutdown others and prohibit action such as mes to carry it, than of ele carrying mmonking skills.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 01, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

Why nerf it ? There are so many counters to it right now:
signet of malice, dismiss conditions, extinguish, 3* mending, restore conditions, purge conditions, draw conditions, purge signet, ...

Yeah, and we're trying to balance it with its counters. Blind is a very strong condition, and you besically HAVE to remove it. If you don't you have a useless warrior. If you do, you're spending 5 energy every 4 seconds and you're using a lot of cast time as well. If they have two Bsurgers, your monks/draw midliner won't be doing anything exept removing the blind.
So yes, there are counters and no, it's not balanced at the moment.
BTW, the ladder has reopened, but there hasn't been a skill balance :S

Lord Natural · Jan 01, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Delete it from the game.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 02, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Delete it from the game.

Seconded. I don't like the skill at all really, if they aren't going to balance it correctly or if they can't find a way, this is the path to take.

Franco Power · Jan 02, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

All they have to do to balance it is raise the recharge time, The AoE and dmg can be kept to make it worth the elite spot. The only thing that is over powered in this skill is not the AoE or the dmg imo, it's overpowered because it's spammable like SF only instead of dmg and burning, it shuts down any meele classes.