Curse

horta · Jan 25, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Hello again Guru's...

Yesterday, my guild played a couple gvg, and we faced 2 teams with massive pressure running either 2 mel's derv and 1 grenth's or 1 mel's+1 grenth's+1 warrior, plus some SF elements. Truth is that they gave us so much pressure that our defense didn't hold it.

All our defense was counter by the derv's. We have double b-surge and aegis chain (2) and some snares, but they had melandrus and grenth+Sight Beyond Sight. So the blinds were useless and so were the prot's enchants aswell...

So, i would to ear your opinion on this, what are the best stategies, etc.

tnx

Patrograd · Jan 25, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

We play a build similar to that which beat yours, and what beats us is:

1) fast aggressive and effective splitting (the split with the ritualist, broadhead and YAA is very strong against this if played properly)
2) Hex overload (water snares and things like faintheartedness, shadow of fear completely stop dervishes - watching a dervish swinging under shadow of fear is very funny, you can cross the map in the time it takes to complete the swing ;-))
3) Heavy passive defence - motivation paragons, midline healing

Xanthar · Jan 25, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

What Patrograd says is very true - A couple of other things one might do is:

1. Wait. Yes, it sounds weird, but if you play conservatively enough to hold out until the forms time out, the derv pressure will slacken off. Of course, this might mean giving up some morale but you might be able to push them back while the forms are recharging.

2. Kill the derv train. These guys are no warriors, yet they have to overextend like they were. Kite them back and hit them hard - They'll fall if you manage to hamper their monks a bit. Once they get a bit into their DP, they'll have to be so careful as to not constitute a big threat.

Granted - It's not easy to counter the derv train, but all the more satisfying when you do

RotteN · Jan 25, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

kill the grenth's before it kills you. grenth dervishes are very fragile, yet that are almost always right under your nose, if you have any spike power, he's the one you're after. You can easely force him to overextend a bit by running away when you see him comin'. By the time he realises he should abort his charge, he should be dead

Once they get some DP they're useless anyway, and can simply be killed at will.

wards help aswell, cause you cannot strip those

ump · Jan 25, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

What Patrograd says is very true - A couple of other things one might do is:

1. Wait. Yes, it sounds weird, but if you play conservatively enough to hold out until the forms time out, the derv pressure will slacken off. Of course, this might mean giving up some morale but you might be able to push them back while the forms are recharging.

Doesn't giving up morale mean their skills get recharged meaning they can reactivate their avatar for more crazy pressure?

Xanthar · Jan 25, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ump

Doesn't giving up morale mean their skills get recharged meaning they can reactivate their avatar for more crazy pressure?

Yup

Well, currently the avatars recharge quite rapidly anyway. Hopefully the balance test lengthening of the recharge time will be implemented at which time this advice might actually be put to use. Ehrm.

Otherwise hexing up the dervs is usually fun. Spirit Shackles is quite amusing, and can be put to good use on the Broad Head Arrow rangers that are so popular at the moment as well.

Warskull · Jan 25, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Focus on stopping the Grenth. Hexes are the best shutdown for Grenth. Blind may or may not work depending on your opponent's set-up. If they don't have a smiter linebacking the Grenth is an option. If you kite the dervishes, you need perfect kiting.

Medion · Jan 25, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

linebacking

I've read this term more often, anyone cares to explain?

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 25, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Since blind is less effective verse these trains, there's a few other ways to plan against this popular build. Water hexes and SoF are quite nice AoE.

Linebacking the Grenth while in form seems to work well with thumpers and the 5 KD build popularized by iQ. Earth shaker seems to merit thought as it could help with pressure relief for monks. If some of the weekend skill changes go in Frozen burst, water trident, grasping earth may help .. ward of foes is always good utility.

It Grenth is shutdown, prot monks are viable. Otherwise you will crumble when energy plumets.

If your build lacks these counters, consider a viable split to force them to break up pressure. If your team folds to quick to them or your split doesn't pose a serious threat then reconsider your build verse the current meta.

Divineshadows · Jan 25, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

I've read this term more often, anyone cares to explain?

Melee that counters other melee through lots of knockdowns like counter blow, bull's strike, hammer bash, devastating hammer, etc.

An ebon dust dervish with crippling sweep is also somewhat similar to this role of melee shutting down other melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

ward of foes is always good utility

They should rename this skill to ward against dervishes.

Acidic Won · Jan 25, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

A linebacker is usually a warrior with a ton of KD's i believe around 5-6 that sits on their meleer and keeps him pressured and gives the monk a break.

Linebacking is simply the art that a linebacker does

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 25, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Linebacking- Is when a melee character (Hammer usually) with several KD's follows the opposing team's melee. This character KD's his target each time he gets up, this is a good form of shutdown as you apply pressure to a melee target while serverely limiting his damage potential. Watch iQ run this build on Big Mchugelarge as they run this to perfection. They've run it recently and i'm sure will continue to do so, as its a good tactical shutdown.

If done right this target will begin to attack you rather than your monks, which is a good trade-off when frustration builds up to a climax.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 25, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

spike out the grenth over and over again, so you can actually heal.

romO · Jan 25, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

"Linebacker" and "linebacking" have come to mean two different things, even though they share a common goal.

A linebacker is a hammer warrior which has an abundance of knockdowns, rush, and crushing blow, so that an opposing warrior can't get off the ground, as well as inflict some decent pressure damage. This build was created by Augie from iQ and has been run since its inception shortly before the GWFC.

Linebacking is a term for when a team's damage characters, whether they be warriors, dervishes, mesmers paragons, elementalists, or anything else, fall back onto the opposing team's damage characters in order to force them to play more conservatively and not be able to pump out significantly less damage. This can be done through knockdowns, diversions, blackouts, or straight damage in order to force the opposition to fall back to their monks, force them to kite and not attack/cast, deny them the ability to frenzy, deny them the chance to overextend, or kill them.

Often times, the term "linebacking" will be thrown around unnecessarily, such as monks with a gale+blackout mesmer sitting on them yelling out "This a****** mesmer is f***ing linebacking my s***!". As far as a strict definition goes, I think "throwing all of your team's damage on their team's damage characters in order to reduce the pressure on your team" still suffices, but the word is also getting the meaning of "sitting all kinds of shutdown on one character and not getting off him/her in order to make him/her completely ineffective". It's kind of like the shutdown version of training.

Manfred · Jan 26, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

In my opinion, the biggest counter to a melandru's dervish is diversion. It's very simple. Learn how often they use wearying strike on average and in what situations. Watch for that situation to come up. 1 second before they use the attack, start casting diversion.

It's pretty leet. Just drops their killing power through the floor.

P.S. predicting to the second when they'll start using an attack skill is hard. Simple, but hard. If your mesmer can do it well, you should reward him with cookies.

RotteN · Jan 26, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manfred

1 second before they use the attack, start casting diversion.

more like 2 seconds, 1.4ish being the absolute shortest casttime of diversion.

And even than it takes one retarded dervish to fall for that more than once ... he can simply start bashing you and then your lil trick fails

Farin · Jan 27, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

How to stop a Derv Train??

You don't. You just cry and wait for a nerf.

On a more serious note, kiting (if you can before they cripple spam you) works best.

linh · Jan 27, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Kiting works well, but if they started spamming cripple for Dervish train, some non-stance defense skill like Return or Shield Bash ( depends on your monk build will help)
And your gvg build should also have defense against it. Blind spam for Grenth, Ward ( Melee, Foe) are awesome for both Grenth and Melandru, Necro hexes, Water hex, water snare ..etc...

Nadine · Jan 27, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Pretty easy to defend against derwish train. Just put one melee to lineback the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing grenth. I played evisce-exe-bull's strike-shock warrior couple of days ago. Works pretty well on linebacking the grenth. Mostly they don't have any decent speed buff so get him down with bull's. When he gets up shock him. Go on as long as your monks state that they have enough energy and/or good positions agaisnt grenth. Then push to offense again, with evisce and exe you are good pressure/spike warrior still.

Seamus Finn · Jan 28, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by horta

Hello again Guru's...

Yesterday, my guild played a couple gvg, and we faced 2 teams with massive pressure running either 2 mel's derv and 1 grenth's or 1 mel's+1 grenth's+1 warrior, plus some SF elements. Truth is that they gave us so much pressure that our defense didn't hold it.

All our defense was counter by the derv's. We have double b-surge and aegis chain (2) and some snares, but they had melandrus and grenth+Sight Beyond Sight. So the blinds were useless and so were the prot's enchants aswell...

So, i would to ear your opinion on this, what are the best stategies, etc.

tnx

Given the dual Bsurges, I would assume you had a mes. I would call for shatter on teh Sight Beyond Sight as soon as it goes up, then Bsurge. It's not an optimal defense, but nothing is(thus teh call for nerfs). The other strategies work as well. Something to know about monking with a Grenth: if the team running the grenth train has competant monks, they will know that Grenth becomes the top spike target as soon as the form gets out, so spiking him isn't usually as easy an option as people think. Furthermore, knowing this could get you a successful spike on other key targets if you can delay the grenth enough to surprise spike someone else.