Curse

Outkast · Feb 10, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Sorry for hijacking this good thread, but i felt the need to answer a few questions i didnt get a chance to from a previous one regarding iway and holding an altar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

So how did they hold without EoE?

How about fertile season, body blocking, fast rezzing, psychic distraction, distracting blow?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Do you even know what IWAY used to do to hold alters? They put EoE down and delibretly edge bombed everyone on the field, whilst their necro sat a mile away with their ghost, and came in to cap when everyone was dead.

Thats funny, that is EXACTLY how an IWAY used to CAP an altar... sure if the other team was crazy enough to cap the altar before 2.00, the iway team *could* recap with another eoe bomb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

That's the only way IWAY could hold

"Holding halls was easier after the EoE nerf"

Would you like to explain why?

already been explained... iway could actually survive better without EOE as it was often EOE that led to their swift demise, especially if it was up during the final 2 mins... We NEVER dropped EOE unless capping or recapping an altar.. Our holding strategy was to kill any EOE, body block ghosts, rez fast and try and keep the ghostly and PD mesmer alive as long as possible. Sure it was ugly but effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

You people talk so much pure garbage it's untrue, you just come along, find a thread and spew complete garbage, based on absolutely nothing. Why comment if you don't know what you're talking about?

You're probably some guy sitting in PVE who saw "MATH" appear over their screen once or twice and thought, oh yeah! Math are those evil IWAYers *boo hiss!*

I'd like to see in that last picture where I laid down EOE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Do you know WHEN eoe was nerfed?

Please explain how a nerfed EoE made it easier for IWAY to hold, with no healing for their ghost, no defense without the ability to hide their necros behind their warriors. How are they supposed to hold then?

Seriously, why do you comment if you don't know what you're talking about, all you do is spread misinformation, I'm all for people having an opinion once they've tried things out, someone saying "I enjoy 6v6" that's fine.

But just talking complete crap like this is ridiculous and just leads to the degradation of new updates when the devs try to base changes on your crap.

*yawn*

Yunas Ele · Feb 10, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

First off, as shown from Outkast's quotes, Tiyuri doesn't know anything about how IWAY holds. Eoe nerfed hurt IWAYs killing ability, and its alter CAPPING ability, but it did NOTHING to its holding power. Well actually it made it a bit easier in some cases, because enemy IWAY eoe effect was weaker on us when holding. Tiyuri, its obviously you've never held with IWAY, or ever faught a decent IWAY that is holding (And thats not a bad thing, mind you), so please don't talk about something you know absolutely nothing about.

Why are we discussing that though? Holding is only 1/4 chance in hoh. And IWAY is not an effective build anymore. Yup, I said it. And before anyone launchs out that "lolx iway was never an effect build" crap, that explains how I consistenly got 20+ consec runs. Consistently getting 20+ consec runs with a build certainly makes it an effective build in my books, to each and his own though.

So ya, IWAY is dead. Why discuss it? You guys like to enlarge your e-peens by beating dead horses? Nice!

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

First off, as shown from Outkast's quotes, Tiyuri doesn't know anything about how IWAY holds. Eoe nerfed hurt IWAYs killing ability, and its alter CAPPING ability, but it did NOTHING to its holding power. Well actually it made it a bit easier in some cases, because enemy IWAY eoe effect was weaker on us when holding. Tiyuri, its obviously you've never held with IWAY, or ever faught a decent IWAY that is holding (And thats not a bad thing, mind you), so please don't talk about something you know absolutely nothing about.

I've kicked Math and Hopeless out of halls countless times back in the day, the argument "EoE was nerfed so we take less damage!!" is a retarded one, no one forced you to lay EoE in halls in the first place.

I can't believe you think bodyblocking and CG/PDs were a valid way to hold with iway, the second you start interrupting a decent team will drop your interrupt guy and laugh at you.

The chances are you used bodyblocking and interrupts to hold vs some very bad teams and think that makes IWAY a build with the ability to hold. Whilst the fact is any decent team that comes to halls whilst an IWAY is holding will kick the iway out of the match so fast that it practically becomes a 1 on 1.

Or are you going to bodyblock and interrupt 2 ghosts? whilst the alter is filled with AoE and you basically have little to no healing?

Good teams EoE bombed, EoE was nerfed and IWAY didnt hold anymore. Simple as that.

--edit--

Good job with the new thread Nurse, this shouldn't be here :P please move.

Nurse With Wound · Feb 10, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Here, I made a special thread for you, so you stop hijacking 8v8 feedback one. I moved all your posts from there as well.

Franco Power · Feb 10, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Nurse, if the usual trolling/flames and stupidity about people flaming IWAY in ID1 isn't enough, you make a thread for it?

I'd delete this crap.

Nurse With Wound · Feb 10, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

This one is for civilized discussion those guys had in one of the other threads :P Flames as usual will be deleted, but if people want to talk about iway, why not let them?

Randomway Ftw · Feb 10, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Since almost all threads in the HA section turn into IWAY threads eventually, why can't we have an IWAY forum?

Nurse With Wound · Feb 10, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

We have an iway thread now, I will be moving everything concerning that build in here. New forum would be a little too much for now :P

Yunas Ele · Feb 10, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I've kicked Math and Hopeless out of halls countless times back in the day, the argument "EoE was nerfed so we take less damage!!" is a retarded one, no one forced you to lay EoE in halls in the first place.

Okay, so you've beaten good IWAYs. Good stuff. Have you played in them? You'd be amazed how much more you learn about a build once you actually try it out a couple times. Thats why I try to play all the fotms in the metagame (as well as other builds ~.~). That way I get a better understanding of the fotms, how they work, and most importantly: how to effectively beat them.

Now, the nerf on eoe had little to no effect on iway HOLDING. It did, however, have a HUGE negative effect on iway's killing and capping ability. Still, its holding power remained the same since EoE was almost never used when holding. The only time it was ever used is if their was an enemy IWAY, in which case the eoe was usually killed by 1 of our warriors. Now if I'm not mistaken, outkast is arguing that because eoe reduced the killing power of IWAY, that means the ENEMY iway that is attacking us is doing less pressure to us, thus allowing us a slightly easier hold. The only time EoE was ever used when holding was vs 2 very heavy pressure builds who kill ridiculously fast and theres no way we'd hold off them. Basically we'd keep a couple people back, say the pder and then 2 wars to chain d-blows. Then everyone else triggers the eoe bomb, then the 2 wars/pder interupt ghosts after the bomb (if it triggered) This was such a poor strategy and very rarely worked. Was really a last resort that didn't work too well. So to sum it up, as an IWAY team, holding vs 2 non-IWAY teams, the nerf on eoe had no effect. However, if an enemy team was IWAY, the eoe nerf slightly reduced their damage output, meaning less pressure on us, meaning a slightly easier hold. The only thing the eoe nerf damaged was the "last resort" holding eoe bomb, that had a very poor success rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I can't believe you think bodyblocking and CG/PDs were a valid way to hold with iway, the second you start interrupting a decent team will drop your interrupt guy and laugh at you.

Or are you going to bodyblock and interrupt 2 ghosts? whilst the alter is filled with AoE and you basically have little to no healing?

Good teams EoE bombed, EoE was nerfed and IWAY didnt hold anymore. Simple as that.

The chances are you used bodyblocking and interrupts to hold vs some very bad teams and think that makes IWAY a build with the ability to hold. Whilst the fact is any decent team that comes to halls whilst an IWAY is holding will kick the iway out of the match so fast that it practically becomes a 1 on 1.

Except that it is a valid way to hold. Some things to keep in mind: IWAY already has 3-4 copies of d-blow, and in some cases PD and/or CG. We also have 8 (yes, 8) resurrection signets that get recharged mid-match, thus giving us 16 res sigs.

Let me hold your hand through a typical IWAY hold. Remember that a lot of things can change depending on your enemy's build and how they decide to play the match. This is just a general idea of whats going on.

Okay, so you have 3-4 IWAY warriors, depending on your build. Remember, warriors a hard targets. So we put 1 on each ghost. Then the other 2 go on offense. This can be "spirit duty", killing harmful spirits like frozen soil or eoe, or they can lineback, reducing pressure on us. Now, if the necros are low on energy and the bodyblockers are gonna die, the offense warriors quickly sprint in and take the BBers spot, thus not allowing the ghost to get on. Then they res up. Remember, we have 16 sigs, so thats more than enough res, even if a few of them get d-shotted. Rinse and repeat. Now eventually lets say a ghost gets up. Now ya, shut down the pd/cg. Oh wait, we have back up d-blows. Gaurdian? Removed by apostasy, good try though. Ward vs Melee? We make sure thats d-blowed on the alter too.

Edit: Wow I can't believe I didn't mention this. Traps... traps.... you have no idea how much pressure can be reduced by some good positioned traps....

AoE? Not really. AoE was no where near as much as a threat as it is now. Also remember while bodyblocking, we aren't balled. We have 2 wars blocking (who aren't in range of aoe of each other. so if you nuked 1, the other wouldn't be in range of it), and then the rest of the team spread out too. Only time aoe hurts is when the wars are balled on the centre d-blowing. AoE is much more powerful now though and is a huge part of today's metagame, another reason why I think IWAY won't work as well now.

Good teams eoe bombed to cap the alter and as a very last resort while holding (and the last resort usually failed). I'm known as one of the better IWAYers out there. You have what? No experience with IWAY? (again, thats not a bad thing), but I encourage you actually play a build before trying to argue with people who have played it a lot and known it inside and out.

We held off many good teams. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think IWAY is a good holding build. I was spoiled by a bit of spirit spamming back in the days and also a couple runs with Noble Savage, as well as the not so old 2 para incoming, energizing finale build when NF was released. IWAY's holding ability is a joke and a half compared to those builds. However, if played correctly it can hold. Like I've said before, I use to consistently do 20+ consec runs, and I wasn't the only IWAYer doing that well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

--edit--

Good job with the new thread Nurse, this shouldn't be here :P please move.

Agreed. Ty nurse.

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I'm sorry I just don't agree and never will.

The statement "IWAY can hold" is only true if both of the other teams on the field are terrible. We held for 14 consec one night playing barrageway for a laugh. This doesn't mean a good team wouldn't have just whiped us.

Mental Leteci · Feb 10, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I agree with Tiyuri, if IWAY will hold or not depends on the other team.

Yunas Ele · Feb 10, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I'm sorry I just don't agree and never will.

The statement "IWAY can hold" is only true if both of the other teams on the field are terrible. We held for 14 consec one night playing barrageway for a laugh. This doesn't mean a good team wouldn't have just whiped us.

Then explain how we held off numerous good teams (yes, good teams on both sides). One night? at dead hours? Why not try CONSISTENTLY getting 20+ consec at a not so dead time.

I encourage you to take the time to actually read my post and still see if you feel that way.

Again, I stress that IWAY is not even close to being the best holding builds and if you want to hold there are many better builds to play but its an undeniable fact that if IWAY, played correctly, it CAN hold. Are you trying to tell me that my numerous 20+ consec runs and holds vs 2 good teams are bull**** I am making up? lol...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I agree with Tiyuri, if IWAY will hold or not depends on the other team.

And thats the case with pretty much any build, Leteci.

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Then explain how we held off numerous good teams (yes, good teams on both sides). One night? at dead hours? Why not try CONSISTENTLY getting 20+ consec at a not so dead time.

I encourage you to take the time to actually read my post and still see if you feel that way.

Again, I stress that IWAY is not even close to being the best holding builds and if you want to hold there are many better builds to play but its an undeniable fact that if IWAY, played correctly, it CAN hold. Are you trying to tell me that my numerous 20+ consec runs and holds vs 2 good teams are bull**** I am making up? lol...

And thats the case with pretty much any build, Leteci.

blablabla.

Look, you have the alter, you won the previous match. You really honestly expect me to believe you're going to stop me killing your ghost after 2:00, and if I do you're going to successfully interrupt 2 ghosts or 2 minutes when I can drop your interrupters so fast?

It's not the case with any build, because IWAY depends on the opposing players idiocy, where as other builds depend on your ability to play them.

Mental Leteci · Feb 10, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

No Yuna, you don't understand what I've tried to say. When you're playing balanced build you have 3 monks right? You can try and keep your ghost alive, even if he dies you can try to interrupt other 2. With IWAY is different. They can't interrupt forever and they can't keep their ghost alive with 2 N/Mo unless other team underestimates N/Mo healers and tries to kill their ghost for 1 min without taking down healers or spirits etc. Now that's the mistake. Luckily, in 80% of my builds i take frozen soil to prevent this and not to depend on the other team.

tomcruisejr · Feb 10, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

here's the OP when MATH was already MATH.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=143

what's the point of this thread really?

and look at the good ole EoE bomb with the taint. Look at where the EoE spirit was placed. You must be blind not to see and kill it. Yet people complained. Coz they sucked.

anyway, edrama aside, when outkast/hopeless/etc in MATH, they held well with OoA IWAY. that's a fact. Tiyuri is in denial fag who doesnt wanna admit facts.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 10, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

It sounds like people are getting 'holding' and 'capping' mixed up. Iway can't hold. It doesn't have enough defense. However, It does a great job capping the altar, and preventing other teams from capping. If you consider interrupting the other team's ghosts for half a minute holding, then yes, it can hold.

Yunas Ele · Feb 10, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

blablabla.

Look, you have the alter, you won the previous match. You really honestly expect me to believe you're going to stop me killing your ghost after 2:00, and if I do you're going to successfully interrupt 2 ghosts or 2 minutes when I can drop your interrupters so fast?

It's not the case with any build, because IWAY depends on the opposing players idiocy, where as other builds depend on your ability to play them.

I think I covered that didn't I? Again, please read me post. I never said we can keep the ghost alive. I said we can "chain" bodyblock (when 1 guy is dropping ane nec is out of energy, another war takes his spot). You also seem to think we have like 1 interupter that can be shut down. No, we have 3-6 interupters. Are you telling me you can shut all of them and then prevent us from using our 16 res sigs (if 1 drops, just res em up). We can interupt for 2 mins but usually bodyblocking doesn't collapse untill 1 min left or later...

If IWAY's holding ability depends on the opposing players idiocy, well damn, I guess a lot of well respected and arguably some of the best HAers are idiots. Heck, I know I've held off leteci's team more than once (and that wasn't with idiots on the other side either). I guess leteci and his team are idiots? I certainly don't think they are. But if thats how you feel, to each and his own I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

No Yuna, you don't understand what I've tried to say. When you're playing balanced build you have 3 monks right?

Right. And I've never said that IWAY's 2 necro backline was better than balanced's 3 monk backline in terms of holding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

You can try and keep your ghost alive, even if he dies you can try to interrupt other 2. With IWAY is different. They can't interrupt forever and they can't keep their ghost alive with 2 N/Mo unless other team underestimates N/Mo healers and tries to kill their ghost for 1 min without taking down healers or spirits etc. Now that's the mistake. Luckily, in 80% of my builds i take frozen soil to prevent this and not to depend on the other team.

No, IWAY isn't different. Considering iway has PD and/or CG and then 4 d-blows that are assisted byapostasy to make sure things like guardian and shield of deflection don't get in the way, I'd say thats quite a lot of interupting. Not to mention 16 res sigs to bring them up if you drop them. If an enemy team underestimates the n/mos, great an easier hold. Thats the same with balance. Team underestimates you guys ("oh those monks suck we can collapse 'em quick"), results in an easy win for your balanced team.

Frozen? There are 1-2 "offensive" warriors that are on either spirit duty or line backing (as I stated in my previous post, which I encourage you to read before posting). Frozen will never be up long enough to do any damage to us, if the IWAY is playing correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

It sounds like people are getting 'holding' and 'capping' mixed up. Iway can't hold. It doesn't have enough defense. However, It does a great job capping the altar, and preventing other teams from capping. If you consider interrupting the other team's ghosts for half a minute holding, then yes, it can hold.

Thom got it right. Thank you thom. If I'm not mistaken, we've been basing this argument considering that "capping prevention" = holding. If I'm wrong then, and leteci and tiyuri think that holding != capping prevention.... then I guess the arguements over and I misunderstood. If holding != capping prevention, then yes, IWAY fails miserably at holding but has fairly decent capping prevention. Thanks again for posting this thom, should hopefully clear some things up...

Anyways I don't see any point to continue this argument. I've given you guys the raw facts but for some reason you don't want to read them / deny them. If thinking that IWAY can't hold helps you sleep at night, great. But I've given you the facts, I've held so many times with it and that can't be denied. Oh, and IWAY is a dead build now.... another reason why this argument is silly...

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

I think I covered that didn't I? Again, please read me post. I never said we can keep the ghost alive. I said we can "chain" bodyblock (when 1 guy is dropping ane nec is out of energy, another war takes his spot). You also seem to think we have like 1 interupter that can be shut down. No, we have 3-6 interupters. Are you telling me you can shut all of them and then prevent us from using our 16 res sigs (if 1 drops, just res em up). We can interupt for 2 mins but usually bodyblocking doesn't collapse untill 1 min left or later...

You just make so many assumptions, you think I'm just going to let you bodyblock my ghost? You think I'm just going to let you interrupt my ghost? Old 8v8 backline had spellbreaker and guardian amongst other things, sooner or later a ghost is going to cap, you aren't going to interrupt 2 ghosts with guardian, spellbreaker etc for 2 minutes, you just wont, especially when I'm killing your interrupters.

I'm sorry but you don't hold by bodyblocking and interrupting alone.

tomcruisejr · Feb 10, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I agree with Tiyuri, if IWAY will hold or not depends on the other team.

It also applies to other builds. If your team is the noobier/noobiest among the three, youll lose HoH.

Yunas Ele · Feb 10, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

You just make so many assumptions, you think I'm just going to let you bodyblock my ghost? You think I'm just going to let you interrupt my ghost? Old 8v8 backline had spellbreaker and guardian amongst other things, sooner or later a ghost is going to cap, you aren't going to interrupt 2 ghosts with guardian, spellbreaker etc for 2 minutes, you just wont, especially when I'm killing your interrupters.

I'm sorry but you don't hold by bodyblocking and interrupting alone.

And I think you still haven't read my posts. Yes, I'm going to bodyblock your ghost. A good warrior will make it ****ing difficult to get your ghost on. Even if you do eventually get it on, its not going to be wtihout ATLEAST 1 min of running him around. Consdering most teams have an offensive character like a shock war running it, guess what? Thats 1 min where we dont hve a shock war on us, less pressure on us ftw.

Spellbreaker? Gaurdian? Allow me to introduce to the wonderful (and arguably broken) skill named Order of Apostasy. The more you post, the more it shows how little you know about IWAY. You can kill our interrupters but remember we have 16 sigs and we don't just have 1 interrupt, we have 3-6 of them. Really, do you think you're going to burn through all 16 sigs, or magically drop all 3-6 interrupters at once?

I'm sorry but I have held with just bodyblocking and interrupting alone. I've held of some of the best HA teams doing just that...